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Noisrevbus
268
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Posted - 2012.10.30 13:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
I've never really understood these threads: there are so many scenarios and the presentation is always vague.
If you are not alone you only really need one offensive tackle ship and one form of support. This could be a Rapier + Scimitar pair. It could also be something like a fire-support ship with high DPS to go with the offensive tackler. That lead us onto the next bit.
The reason you want some kind of support is because a Rapier alone would see the Cynabal switch to offensive-mode and move in for a brawl (afterall, the Rapier will not out-dps or tank a Cynabal at standard point-range and down).
Picking any other ship and the Cynabal is faced with similar concerns. This is where the logic in most of these threads begin to break down. There are plenty of options if you assume that the Cynabal actually engage you to begin with - that he actually come into your snap-range to apply effective tackle and damage - that he wants to catch you.
There are very few miracle ships in the game that is better at both catching and brawling at a lower pricetag or an "engagable" outlook. Those ships don't exist because they're not meant to exist - it's called balance. It's not like Cynabals run around without concern for what they commit to.
If the question is "can do" and not what "reliably do" the number of options are plentiful. You can beat a Cynabal with a lone Rapier or Huginn. You have the tools to catch him and if you play better than your opponent the difference in tank-spank is not so vast to make it impossible for you to win if he decides to go offensive.
You could do something as simple as stick a faction-point plus LR weapons on a Huginn and you'd be able to kite him outside of his point-range similar to how he play defensively against other ships (assuming he is standard Tech II / AC fit). The further out from his point-range you push him, the more his damage will drop comparative yours and the disparity between your tanks. That too ofc. also assume that he is not better than you at execute the flying bit or recieve any other favourable factors (such as starting in brawl range; as you can twist and turn anything "prospective" in favour in EVE).
Personally, i wouldn't do something odd like that - i'd just trap him with two offensive ships.
In short:
- Any combination that allow you to trap an opponent (eg., a Recon-support pair, or bait + cloaky Recon). - Any ship with high offensive tackle combined with fair tank-spank (eg., a Recon) - Any ship with fair mobility ontop of better tank-spank, provided the target engage, at all (eg., Tech III) - Any ship with similar features as the target based on the "execution principle" of the Recons (eg., a Vaga).
If there is a super ship that is less expensive, look more engageable, is as fast and can both catch and brawl the Cynabal? No, those don't exist and would never be allowed to exist. They're not meant to exist.
Trying to combine the element of "engageability" with "reliable win" is nonsensical. Ships become "engageable" when you give an advantage to the opponent (percieved or real). |
Tru Love
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.10.30 13:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:lot of sense.
What you are saying is the truth. However, you might have missed that part of the OP where he mentions, allow me to digest, the following: - not after solo kill - go in and tackle until help arrives - not too expensive - nothing that would scare the Cyna [class ships] away
But all-in-all nice post. |
Noisrevbus
268
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Posted - 2012.10.30 13:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
The same scenarios still apply though...
Wether something survive or not is ultimately up to you, the choices you make and how you define terms of estimation. A Rapier is cheaper than a Cynabal, so comparatively it would be cheap and perform the tackle aspect with grace while retaining the tank to hold out until help arrives.
If you want to further complicate things you need to ask yourself the question what the "help" entail. Will the help be able to apply secondary tackle, reach or catch up?
There are alot of ships that can maintain point and survive for 1-2min against a Cynabal. However, even if help warps to a gang-mate (instead of a gate or w/e) they may end up 100km away from the fight if there is no secondary tackle applied.
Assuming the help has 100km webbers + pointers and snipers, a simple Interceptor will be able to maintain point long enough to establish the 100km killzone.
Assuming the Cynabal takes risk to burn a bait-ship down all you need to do is surprise him with a tank and tackle he doesn't expect. You could armor-tank a ship that normally shield-tanks and fill your mids with secondary tackle. That ultimately have to do with the choices the Cynabal-pilot makes though and you need to keep in mind that "expensive" is a variable in what makes you "engageable". Some people will simply not take bait that isn't worth any risk. An expensive ship becomes appealing to kill. He is afterall flying a 300m ship and may not be keen to go for small-fry even if he thinks he could win with relative ease, or not commit when engaging because he doesn't have to.
There are just so many options and variables that even with the added requirements in that short list - it doesn't really establish any truth or fact. That's part of the charm of EVE. |
Skelee VI
Wraithguard.
14
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Posted - 2012.10.30 14:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
Disposible Hero, I just saw your name. You after my Cyn? LOL
A jag may be an option too with an ASB. what kind of distance in terms of warp may be a factor too. Have a cloaky rapier near by to get dual webs and curse to neut him. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
158
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Posted - 2012.10.31 14:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hey numpty, learn to read and you might just learn to play the game.
1. He cant turn off your tackle if you have a nos, or are you unclear as to what that is? I'm sure in your extensive pvp experience you have encountered them before right? Condor is especially good at that with its cap bonus (omg derp whats that, dribble dribble)
2. Tackle is really the only issue as I said, but unless you have the IQ of a pile of dog ****...its not that hard to get a cynabal to follow you when you are in a T1 frig. He lands on you @ 0 and you have him.
Now please go learn a few things about pvp you pathetic wannabe. And quit giving **** advice and insulting people who actually are trying to help and know what they are talking about.
Maeltstome wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:For a cookie cutter cynabal pretty much any frig with AB , TD scram and nos can solo one. Condor works especially well
nos+scram+ab+td
Cyn cant neut you, cant hurt you once you kill drones, will take 10m to kill but the km is oh so sweet.
Toughest part is getting tackle, however they are an arrogant bunch these cynabal pilots. Use FW plex gates to your advantage. Its not too hard to get him to land @ 0 on you. Its really easy if he is expecting an easy kill.
Using rapiers, t3s , arazus, etc is ******* ********. Only cyn pilot you will catch with those is a ******** one. Talking absolute trash. You will never get into range with an AB. And he will neut you until your tackle turns off anyway, one blast of his MWD and you die to his guns. MWD, Nos, Web, Scram, local repairer. Only way you can survive long enough for backup to arrive.
QCATs is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
Maeltstome
the unified Negative Ten.
104
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Posted - 2012.10.31 15:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Hey numpty, learn to read and you might just learn to play the game. 1. He cant turn off your tackle if you have a nos, or are you unclear as to what that is? I'm sure in your extensive pvp experience you have encountered them before right? Condor is especially good at that with its cap bonus (omg derp whats that, dribble dribble) 2. Tackle is really the only issue as I said, but unless you have the IQ of a pile of dog ****...its not that hard to get a cynabal to follow you when you are in a T1 frig. He lands on you @ 0 and you have him. Now please go learn a few things about pvp you pathetic wannabe. And quit giving **** advice and insulting people who actually are trying to help and know what they are talking about. Maeltstome wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:For a cookie cutter cynabal pretty much any frig with AB , TD scram and nos can solo one. Condor works especially well
nos+scram+ab+td
Cyn cant neut you, cant hurt you once you kill drones, will take 10m to kill but the km is oh so sweet.
Toughest part is getting tackle, however they are an arrogant bunch these cynabal pilots. Use FW plex gates to your advantage. Its not too hard to get him to land @ 0 on you. Its really easy if he is expecting an easy kill.
Using rapiers, t3s , arazus, etc is ******* ********. Only cyn pilot you will catch with those is a ******** one. Talking absolute trash. You will never get into range with an AB. And he will neut you until your tackle turns off anyway, one blast of his MWD and you die to his guns. MWD, Nos, Web, Scram, local repairer. Only way you can survive long enough for backup to arrive.
You recommended a an AB frigate to tackle a cynabal - your opinion is invalid.
Anyone who has flown a Vaga/Cyna or flown against one knows they are frigate killers. An MWD to close range is the only option you have - a Cynabal will NOT land at 0 on you unless the pilot is a dribbling mess, so nothing you said holds any weight in the real world.
And P.s. your tackle will turn off if you have a local repairer, if you dont have a local rep you die to his drones. The question is: How long can you hold him until that happens? With an MWD you can at least stay close to him once he tries to get range from you and his neuts go out of range. With the AB you get melted after one MWD cycle from him. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
158
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Posted - 2012.10.31 16:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
My opinion is invalid? LOL! Trust me big guy next to Loren I dont think there is a soul in the game with more experience then me in a Cynabal.
1. You can get him to land @ 0, and if you can't your just not even trying. Warp to a FW plex gate for example , he will follow at between 20-50. If you get the distance wrong warp off and try again. Use planets, belts, really doesn't matter. And its very simple.
2. Tackle will not turn off if you have a NOS, and you don't need an active tank. You can kill the 5 drones long before they become any threat and a TD stops damage from the guns completely.
TBH this should all be common sense to anyone with at least a little pvp experience. I have something like 2000 kills in a Cynabal and the majority were idiots in frigs mwding toward me thinking they could tackle me.
Here is the last one http://qcats.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14346851 Called in the second condor because it was taking ages to kill him. Never dropped below 90% shields btw. Once you have them caught there is quite literally nothing they can do about it...
Maeltstome wrote: You recommended a an AB frigate to tackle a cynabal - your opinion is invalid.
Anyone who has flown a Vaga/Cyna or flown against one knows they are frigate killers. An MWD to close range is the only option you have - a Cynabal will NOT land at 0 on you unless the pilot is a dribbling mess, so nothing you said holds any weight in the real world.
And P.s. your tackle will turn off if you have a local repairer, if you dont have a local rep you die to his drones. The question is: How long can you hold him until that happens? With an MWD you can at least stay close to him once he tries to get range from you and his neuts go out of range. With the AB you get melted after one MWD cycle from him.
QCATs is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
God's Apples
The Tuskers
25
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Posted - 2012.11.01 02:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pretty much what Princess said. It's fully possible to solo a cynabal in an AB rail DD with a fed navy web. Hell, most t1 frigs will do if you get close to it. |
Noisrevbus
269
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Posted - 2012.11.01 02:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Those are very specific examples though Princess as they involve both him warping to you and him being alone.
The redundancy is low.
I think it's a fair example, but it's one among many and you seem quite eager to discredit other people's advice.
Obviously, anyone can do anything in this game. I've seen frigates take on multiple capitals, scored several kills on support and pressured the capitals to force escalation.
It comes back to wether the question is "can do" or "reliably do" in a general scenario.
It does however raise the question of what you two actually are arguing about, and what's with the attitude. |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
1
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Posted - 2012.11.01 14:54:00 -
[40] - Quote
I've been thinking about putting together a curse to get a cynabal. Rough fit would have 3 neuts, nos, mwd, cap booster, couple TD to negate guns and a fed point. My idea is to shut him down and let drones eat him. Could also wait for friends. |
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Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
31
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Posted - 2012.11.01 15:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
A Scram vaga with a nos and ECM drones.
Also lol @ some of the fits in here, utter retards. |
Maeltstome
the unified Negative Ten.
106
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Posted - 2012.11.01 16:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:Those are very specific examples though Princess as they involve both him warping to you and him being alone.
I think it's fair examples, but it's situational among many and you seem quite eager to discredit other people's advice.
It raises the question of what you two actually are arguing about, and what's with the attitude.
Obviously, anyone can do anything in this game. I've seen frigates take on multiple capitals, scored several kills on support and pressured the capitals to force escalation.
It comes back to wether the question is "can do" or "reliably do" in a general scenario.
Bingo. It's jsut buthurt responses cause they got called on a bad post. instead of correcting yourself, you start a flame based on a tunnel visioned/unrealistic/incredibly-rare scenario which makes you right.
The bigger picture is more than just 1 situation. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
215
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Posted - 2012.11.01 21:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gibbo5771 wrote:A Scram vaga with a nos and ECM drones.
Best suggestion ITT short of the classic tackle 'ceptor. CAUTION
SNIGGS |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
768
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Posted - 2012.11.02 03:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gibbo5771 wrote:A Scram vaga with a nos and ECM drones.
Also lol @ some of the fits in here, utter retards.
Vaga's also work well with the soon to be nerved XL-ASB. Abuse it while it lasts! |
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