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Eternal Montage
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
3
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Posted - 2012.10.26 14:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
For over a month now I've been sort of passively (sometimes actively) station trading in Jita. I turned 300 mil into a bil but I'm not satisfied. I did this to pay for two accounts and all the PVP ships my heart desires--1 bil isn't enough. My ultimate goal is to have an outrageous empire and infinite ships without ruining my real life.
I hear stories and meet people who have made billions--multiple billions. I want to be one of these guys with 10-20 bil in his wallet (that's probably not all that much to some) and another few invested in buy orders/assets/etc. Maybe I'm just being impatient... yeah that's probably it. The more ISK you have to throw around the more you can make with it I suppose... I'd like to pose the question anyways.
What separates the 1 bil station traders from the big boys? How do you break through? And, in order to do so, do I have to give up my real life, or can balance be achieved? I doubt anyone will give away "the secret" in here, but perhaps Bill Gates of eve will come along and twirl some wisdom before our eyes. In any case, I want to find these people and learn from them. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
747
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not doing it passively should help.
As should research.
You need to identify trends and cycles, getting into them before they sweep back up and getting out before they fall. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Princess Strawberry
22
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
The big boys don't simply find markets that make a good %, they move markets themselves. See Goons and minerals (now ice seems to be their latest target). If you have enough cash to actually influence the price yourself, and you're smart, you can print isk. Get it wrong, and you can lose a lot of isk too, of course.
Also, patch notes are your friends. See what's coming, and prepare. Most recent example, easy to see in the market graphs, would be the recent changes to certain frigates. I think the condor was one - look at how much that influenced the price and volume when the changes hit. A savvy person would have read the patch notes and been buying up condors in advance.
http://eveonomics.blogspot.co.uk/
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
399
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Posted - 2012.10.26 17:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Do whatever you did to get 1b another 20 times and then consider what Princess Strawberry wrote.
There is no universal "get rich quick" scheme. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Eternal Montage
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
4
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Posted - 2012.10.26 17:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
I guess I don't really know what I'm asking. I just feel like I've hit a glass ceiling and I don't know how to progress.
To anyone that has pulled it off, how long did it take you to be able to pay for your accounts and all your ships? I'm wondering how long I have to do this for to be completely self sustaining.
Essentially I want to retire from PVE |
Koen L
Order Carebears Solar Citizens
14
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Posted - 2012.10.31 09:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Right. Build your own market hub on a place where people need stuff. Dont sell items, sell fully fitted ships, make packages. Be of service and try to find trends. Thats how i do it. I can make some billions per week sometimes with the right stuff. But its not a passive income, it needs high investment and is quite risky always. But no risk, no fun, no income. GÖ½ When your ship gets blown to bits GÖ¬ GÖ½ And you lose your Faction fits GÖ¬ \Gÿ+/ Don't worry GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ Be Happy \Gÿ+/ |
Ravenclaw2kk
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.10.31 11:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
1 word - speculate.
Get in to a market early enough before a patch and you can easily turn 1bn into 20bn. Do that each patch and you can sustain an account quite easily. You just have to do your research beforehand. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
101
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Posted - 2012.10.31 15:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eternal Montage wrote:I guess I don't really know what I'm asking. I just feel like I've hit a glass ceiling and I don't know how to progress.
To anyone that has pulled it off, how long did it take you to be able to pay for your accounts and all your ships? I'm wondering how long I have to do this for to be completely self sustaining.
Essentially I want to retire from PVE
I tried the passive income from investments, some years ago. Bought shares, put ISK in an in-game bank. I was lucky with the shares, but the bank ended up a scam.
For some time I just paid $$$$ for my account and sold the occasional PLEX to give myself an influx of spending money. Then about a year ago I spent a few months trauding and hauling, and was able to pay both for my main and alt account. Then I retired my alt account (not deleted - I may bring him back at some point). Then about half year ago, I sold something like 4 or 5 PLEX, and used the money to resume my trading-hauling biz, and I've been profitable ever since, earning a couple of billion a month easily, although losing half a billion on the Procurer/Retriever patch thing.
It's a lot of work, though, and requires having a Freighter (I've had one since 2008, although they were about half the price then that they are now).
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Cipio Hakoke
Cipio Industries
4
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Posted - 2012.10.31 18:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
There are lots of ways to make great isk but most involve risk as you may lose a lot. Keep in mind if you are stockpiling and selling at peak.. if the item drops in value greatly.. You didn't lose any isk unless you sell when it drops.. Passive incomes are great, Long manufacturing/research jobs are good investments as it takes lots of isk but all but guaruntees a return on investment. Station trading is good if you don't mind logging on multiple times a day to update prices. Opening up a buisness is always good. Making your own trade hub as mentioned above sounds like a ton of fun, But would require great ammounts of investments as well as risk that people will buy there. |
Atmospheric Pressure
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.10.31 19:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you only have 1bil isk, it would probably be easier for you just to make the next 10bil doing PVE. 10bil isn't hard to get at all in 0.0 even with a moderate amount of work. Go solo some DED sites in a tengu. |
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Eternal Montage
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
14
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Posted - 2012.10.31 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Atmospheric Pressure wrote:If you only have 1bil isk, it would probably be easier for you just to make the next 10bil doing PVE. 10bil isn't hard to get at all in 0.0 even with a moderate amount of work. Go solo some DED sites in a tengu.
Really? |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
70
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Posted - 2012.11.01 01:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Some may scoff at what I'm about to say but hear me out.
1. Planetary Interaction.
Now, I'm not saying this as a way to make billions, but if plexing you account is is one of your goals then this will take care of it. It'll take about a month to get running. I say this as while you are still around the low bill mark, half a bill outgoing is still a lot of money you could be using elsewhere and I personally found my profits accelerated once I set up my little farmville and freed up half a bill more to invest. Even flipping P3's to P4's on factory planets can be a good way to add value to stuff.
2. Try to keep you PvP ship habit under control.
It's great to fly the shiny stuff, but limit how much you expend and make more of an effort to fly better in cheaper ships. There's always something you can do to improve your game. Always. This is going to be a whole lot easier with the upcoming ship balancing.
I say this now as someone who's not long left your position . I'm coming up to the 10 bill mark soon. I'll probably ditch the PI in a few months but I can't say it hasn't helped. |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
115
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Posted - 2012.11.01 01:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some may scoff at what I'm about to say but hear me out.
1. Planetary Interaction.
Now, I'm not saying this as a way to make billions, but if plexing your account is is one of your goals then this will take care of it. It'll take about a month to get running. I say this as while you are still around the low bill mark, half a bill outgoing is still a lot of money you could be using elsewhere and I personally found my profits accelerated once I set up my little farmville and freed up half a bill more to invest. Even flipping P3's to P4's on factory planets can be a good way to add value to stuff. Do it in a trade hub region and you can still be checking your orders.
2. Try to keep your PvP ship habit under control.
It's great to fly the shiny stuff, but limit how much you spend and make more of an effort to fly better in cheaper ships. There's always something you can do to improve your game. Always. This is going to be a whole lot easier with the upcoming ship balancing.
I say this now as someone who's not long left your position . I'm coming up to the 10 bill mark soon. I'll probably ditch the PI in a few months but I can't say it hasn't helped.
Ed. Have you ever noticed how a lot of the wealthy people drive around in old Volvos and the like. |
Ravenclaw2kk
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
11
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Posted - 2012.11.01 02:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
3. Industry - T2 ship building is fairly passive if you have enough capital to do it right. But, you'd be wanting a startup capital of 5-50bn to do it with minimal work. |
thekiller2002us
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
118
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Posted - 2012.11.01 08:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
trial and error: through market trading I've lost upwards of 800 mil on some trades but made bilions on others.
sometimes I look at my sell orders and Its like looking into the abyss, but when stock starts moving my sell orders look like a gold mine
investigate: both where you are buying (is price too high being market maniped) and look where you sell (is competition moving in?) if yes to either question then look at different trades.
I hate playing the 1 isk game- i find it boring and once too much competition moves in- I leave as soon as my current stock is sold, there are always more profitable trade routes if you look for them.
I check market orders once in the morning- before I go to work, and once in the evening and pvp the rest of the time (this can take half an hour or so - especially if stock needs replenishing.
someone above said that rich market morguls make the market- and hit the nail on the head. the markets I have created have always net me more profit than existing markets- this can be difficult though and you need patience + balls- i find my mind always screaming at me when i look at selling an item that hasn't sold in the system within a year and it doesn't always work but when it works- you wont have to worry about isk again.
also dont be greedy with the markets you create- although there are some complete idiots in eve who might buy your ridiculously overprices stock, Eve Online is a smart game with people who are well aware of your ridiculous price. Sell reasonably, and people will buy reasonably
tldr: buy low, sell high. I'm with Brick on this one- make thouse carebearing b******s squeal.. |
Brambat Dim
ARES Unlimited
0
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Posted - 2012.11.03 12:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Princess Strawberry wrote:The big boys don't simply find markets that make a good %, they move markets themselves. See Goons and minerals (now ice seems to be their latest target). If you have enough cash to actually influence the price yourself, and you're smart, you can print isk. Get it wrong, and you can lose a lot of isk too, of course.
thekiller2002us wrote:someone above said that rich market morguls make the market- and hit the nail on the head.
That sounds interesting. I am relativly new to EVE and I am still working in mostly pretty secure markets. I started station trading 3 months ago with a little less than 1b. In the meantime I made it to ca. 20b and I am earning a little more than 1b per day. So before long I will have a pile of ISK to work with. Maybe that's the right time to look into something that's a little more risky. I need to find a way how to make larger amounts of ISK work efficiently.
Obviously the whole speculation thing is one option.
I am kind of curious about what the two of you stated, though. Big Players "move the market themselves", they "make the market". I'm having trouble figuring out what that means exactly. How does that work?
Can you give an (abstract) example on how this would be done?
I appreciate any advice :) |
thekiller2002us
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
119
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Posted - 2012.11.03 13:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
There are possibly billions of different ways you can create a market for the majority of items in Eve, (taking into account the amount of systems in eve + the amount of different items in eve.)
You can make a market for almost any item in eve (i.e buying small remote armor repairers from one place i.e Amarr and selling them somewhere where they aren't currently being sold i.e Sirseshin. And Bam! you have just created a market for small remote armor repairers in Sirseshin!
Anyone with isk can do this. HOWEVER the trick is actually creating a market where enough of these items sell to make you an adequate profit (I say adequate because some peoples ideas of a good profit is very different from others)
Lets look at our example- the main hurdle (I can currently see) is that Sirseshin is currently in the forge (the same region as jita) so selling small remote armor repairers in Sirseshin may not yield adequate profit and therefore you have not created a profitable market (there are many different things that will effect potential markets hence why you need to research.)
dont worry too much about this (as long as you didn't invest all of your isk into this single item). I say don't worry because this happens to me all the time- I have done research, looked at competition, checked to see if there is a manip going down- and still something will go **** up and the market I have created has not netted me profit so I move on (hence why I said I sometimes make a loss.)
you need to know your potential market inside out and upside down
- is there competition who are also selling your stock then i would argue that you have not created a market but are just moving in on someone else (i call this herd trading because most people in eve will follow the herd, as it is usually a lot safer albeit, less profitable)
- Will your stock actually sell? why create a market for an item when it is likely there is no customers.
also when you have established a profitable market- be prepared to move on once someone else moves in- unless you like 1 isk trading all day or can sustain your profit.
As I said and someone said- the true billionaires don't need to worry about isk, they create markets, they don't **** about 1 isking in Jita or herd trading, they are the shepherds of the herd and use their isk to print isk. I'm with Brick on this one- make thouse carebearing b******s squeal.. |
Princess Strawberry
24
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Posted - 2012.11.05 17:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Brambat Dim wrote: I am kind of curious about what the two of you stated, though. Big Players "move the market themselves", they "make the market". I'm having trouble figuring out what that means exactly. How does that work?
Can you give an (abstract) example on how this would be done?
I appreciate any advice :)
I mentioned moving the market AKA market manipulation. You can do it yourself easily enough. You have to know the market for that item first.
Absract example:
Let's say there's 200 of an item on sale. This is theoretical, so let's say there's 100 on sale a 500 isk, and another 100 on sale at 5,000 isk. 50 of them sell per day. So buyout the 100 on sale at the lower price, and relist them at 4,999 isk. BINGO! You just moved the market upwards, and in 2 days (if nothing else changes - this is theory after all) you'll have made 449,900 isk from a 50,000isk investment. Approx 900% profit. Or maybe buyout the lot and relist them at 10,000 isk and make even more. Then who cares about scouring the market for the best profit margin? You decide what the margin is.
But you have to know the market. Are there 20 producers going to come to market tomorrow and relist lower than you? What are the buy orders like? What impact will increasing the price have on the market for that item? Remember when a player buys an item it comes up with a little warning box if it's very far off the average price. Who are you competing against? Is someone doing the same as you? Or (worse) is someone trying to crash the price while you are trying to raise it? Out of those 50 that sell per day, how many are ACTUAL sales from sell orders (which is your channel in this scenario) and how many of those are people dumping a rubbish item to the best available buy order?
You can also crash a market. Flood it with low-priced items, or in many cases you can drive the price downwards with only a handful of items (you'd be surprised how many people will 0.01 isk your sell order of 10 units of very low priced item X with another 500 units, even though it only sells 20 per day, then instead of 0.01 isking them back, you drop the price by 100,000 isk, rinse and repeat until those items are cheap enough for ya).
So, optmally, crash the price for a few days, buy all the stock up, then move the market upwards for the next few days. This is market pvp. If the 0.01 isk game is like small scale pvp, then market manipulation is like fleet warfare.
Try it yourself, in a smaller hub than Jita though to begin with though if you don't want our wallet to be butthurt. You want a popular-ish item, no point in doing this with something that only sells 5 units a week. But very hard to do it with an item that sells thousands per day. You need to be able to afford to buy enough of that item to cover multiple days (if not multiple weeks) worth of sales volume to really affect the market in any significant way for any significant time, which is how you really make the money. Comparing sales volume to the volume available on the market is a key part of the decision process (prices don't really matter any more though, because you're the one who's going to set the price).
Partly what you go into depends on what markets you know, how big your wallet is (and how much of your wallet you want to commit to this), and do your research. I've told you plenty already, no handouts on what items I may be trading.
When you are absoutey megarich then you can do it with minerals in Jita, like the Goons did. Just had a look at the data, 21 billion units of Trit sold yesterday. Even if you moved the price 0.1 isk, that's 2.1 billion in one day. I believe that when they shifted the price, although there were other factors going on as well, the price went from about 3 to 6 isk. That persisted for weeks. 60 billion isk per day, for weeks on end.
Ultimately, it does boil down to buy low, sell high. Helps if you can set the high and low prices though http://eveonomics.blogspot.co.uk/
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Brambat Dim
ARES Unlimited
0
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Posted - 2012.11.06 11:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Two insightful answers. Thank you for your time. :)
@ thekiller2002us
I will keep that in mind an do some research, but I am not so sure if this is more profitable than plain station trading in one of the bigger hubs. After all you have to calculate in time for hauling stuff around and the traded volume would be so much lower than in a hub. The profit margin would have to be very high in order to add up, right? I guess in the end that's just going to decrease the possible volume even more, because high prices will drive a lot of people away.
Don't get me wrong. I do believe this is a valid concept. But I find it hard to believe that it's really worth it, considering the time/effort I'd have to put into it.
Maybe I am missing something here...
@ Princess Strawberry
I have tried this a few times in the past (buy up&relist sell orders) but must of the times it went all wrong, most probably due to lack of research, knowledge and dedication. In the end I just gave up and kept .01 isking. I want to change that however. Updating 200+ orders every hour consumes so much time and energy. At the moment I am trying to find a "trading system" for myself, that maintains my income per day but at the same time significantly reduces the time I am babysitting market orders every day. (optimally a maximum of ca. 3-4 updates/day)
You provided a quite detailed description of how this might be possible. I will give it a shot. And this time I am going to do my homework. It just makes me kind of nervous thinking of how much ISK I might lose in the process of learning... Then again I might earn ridiculous amounts... Who knows. Who cares.
Thanks again for your time and effort. |
Princess Strawberry
27
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Posted - 2012.11.06 13:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Glad it was helpful.
Some notes:
On thekiller's strategy: I've done that too, try to find mission hubs not near trade hubs, supply stuff mission runners need. My experience was that sales volume is low but you didn't have to spend a lot of time babysitting orders. Like he said, doing it in the same region as Jita is a waste of time. Same goes for Amarr, Dodixie, Rens Apparently some people have had some success building hubs in low sec but have never tried that myself. Population seems low and hassle factor increases.
On my strategy: I have the advantage that for a long time I was producing a lot of items, so I know the markets well, particularly how many competing producers there were and the handful of useful items that fall "out of stock" regularly at the trade hub I was working in. They are your best targets - remember what I said about trade volume per day versus the amount of available stock in the market being a critical part of the decision process. Also remember that it's not fast. You need to pick items where you are willing to commit (and have) enough isk to change the market for a week or 2. Which means it's really not cheap when you get it wrong, but you can know that in advance if you know typical volumes / can estimate how many wil come on to the market over the course of a week.
One advantage though is that other people 0.01isking helps you when you are crashing the market, so that part's almost easy and requires less updating. On the flip side you have to be hyper-agressive on updating orders when it comes to selling your stock at the higher price. Timing counts here - any trader with any experience should know what days and times you get the bigger sales volumes... so I'm sure I don't need to spell that out for you.
http://eveonomics.blogspot.co.uk/
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Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2012.11.06 18:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Have you watched Layer Cake?
Your born, you take **** You get out in the world, you take more **** You climb a little higher, you take less **** Till one day your up in the rarefied air you've forgotten what **** even looks like!
When you start you work really hard. Getting the amount of money to make a big difference (50B+) takes a lot of work.
The players at those levels have the amount of funds to make big returns, but that takes a lot of work. The really big returns usually occur at patches and expansions (look at Akita T's work around Tech a few years ago). It is possible to gamble huge sums on patch changes and either win or lose really big.
The big 'moguls' do a lot of work and research to understand the effects.
Good luck on the climb.
There is no win quick button! |
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