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irishFour
Mobile Meth Lab Monkeys
7
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Posted - 2012.10.26 14:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
A corpie of mine was asking about the nightmare for pve. Ive never shot a laser, i don't know anything about the nightmare. Playing around on eft, its not a challenge to get it over 1100 dps with some faction damage mods and implants.
I use a mach, its great, and i got into it because everyone on the forums rage about how awesome it is. Why dont they rage about the nightmare. More dps, similar skill requirements, a little different optimal and fall off.
Does it have tracking issues, tank issues, ability to actually apply the dps issues? Should i eventually cross train for it?
Tell me what you know irish
I like to have my cake and eat it too |
Paikis
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
231
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Posted - 2012.10.26 14:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Nightmare does have cap issues. Also, people love the machariel and have a massive hard on for projectiles. Shame they're mostly ignorant of falloff mechanics, otherwise they WOULD be raving about the Nightmare.
Projectiles get WAY more credit than they are actually due. EFT warriors love them. |
illirdor
The Grey Eagle Society
25
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tachs ! its one of the ships that can fit a full rack of tahcs t2 without gimping the fit.. my corp fly them alot in a spidertank setup wich is cap stable :) its an amazing ship :)
Come to Amamake... The universal answer to everything... |
Kasutra
Tailor Company IMPERIAL LEGI0N
71
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
It also has the Amarr damage type issue. The Mach doesn't really suck vs. any of the large rat factions, the Nightmare is less universally applicable and thus gets mentioned in fewer forum discussions. |
Paikis
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
231
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:It also has the Amarr damage type issue. The Mach doesn't really suck vs. any of the large rat factions, the Nightmare is less universally applicable and thus gets mentioned in fewer forum discussions.
The only rats that aren't weak to either EM or Thermal are Angels, which the Machariel will kill nicely. Amarr damage types are fine. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
399
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
the down sides of the nightmare are almost no damage selection, bad capacitor, and the fact that it is about as fast and agile as a freighter. aside from that it's pretty badass.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Chris Slayter
Cypher Mortalis Aureus Alae
6
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Something worth to mention is that the Nightmare is limited to the EM/Therm damage that comes with the laser turrets it uses. Hands down, the Nightmare is king of Amarr-space missioning, but the Mach brings more variety of ammo to the fight.
Edit: Daniel beat me to it, guess I need to be faster next time :) |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
90
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nobody notices a Mach anymore, but the mare turns heads and still gets WTFolades. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
209
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Posted - 2012.10.26 15:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
irishFour wrote:A corpie of mine was asking about the nightmare for pve. Ive never shot a laser, i don't know anything about the nightmare. Playing around on eft, its not a challenge to get it over 1100 dps with some faction damage mods and implants.
I use a mach, its great, and i got into it because everyone on the forums rage about how awesome it is. Why dont they rage about the nightmare. More dps, similar skill requirements, a little different optimal and fall off.
Does it have tracking issues, tank issues, ability to actually apply the dps issues? Should i eventually cross train for it?
Tell me what you know irish
Nightmare KILLS in Amarr missions. Sucks in Minmatar. :( |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 15:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Nobody notices a Mach anymore, but the mare turns heads and still gets WTFolades.
Got both, considering dumping the Mach. Really like the Nightmare, but it's uses are limited now that I've moved to Minnie space. |
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Arcosian
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
24
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Posted - 2012.10.26 16:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
The nightmare is awesome. What makes it awesome you ask?
#1 Easy to get 1000+dps to well over 50km #2 Great damage projection #3 Faction crystals are pretty cheap and last forever. Best of all you only need 4 at a time rather than the LOL # for mach #4 Easy to fit an 800 dps tank against sansha/BR #5 Tracking of .05...with tachs o.O #6 Has spikey bits to impale corpses on
Down sides: #1 Only Em/Therm damage which really isn't a problem if you (and you should) mission in amarr space. #2 High end fit needs a cap booster (not really an issue as I hardly use it in L4) #3 5% hardwires really make it shine #4 Tach fits really don't let you fit a prop mod but you really don't need one for missions.
Remarks: As long as you mission in amarr space it will be king of PVE. Don't use pulse lasers for missions. |
irishFour
Mobile Meth Lab Monkeys
8
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Posted - 2012.10.26 16:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:The nightmare is awesome. What makes it awesome you ask? #1 Easy to get 1000+dps to well over 50km #2 Great damage projection #3 Faction crystals are pretty cheap and last forever. Best of all you only need 4 at a time rather than the LOL # for mach #4 Easy to fit an 800 dps tank against sansha/BR #5 Tracking of .05...with tachs o.O #6 Has spikey bits to impale corpses on Down sides: #1 Only Em/Therm damage which really isn't a problem if you (and you should) mission in amarr space. #2 High end fit needs a cap booster (not really an issue as I hardly use it in L4) #3 5% hardwires really make it shine #4 Tach fits really don't let you fit a prop mod but you really don't need one for missions. Remarks: As long as you mission in amarr space it will be king of PVE. Don't use pulse lasers for missions.
What about drone hordes What about it being the team mate for an archon or thanny while running anoms?
I like to have my cake and eat it too |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
146
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Posted - 2012.10.26 16:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
irishFour wrote:Arcosian wrote:The nightmare is awesome. What makes it awesome you ask? #1 Easy to get 1000+dps to well over 50km #2 Great damage projection #3 Faction crystals are pretty cheap and last forever. Best of all you only need 4 at a time rather than the LOL # for mach #4 Easy to fit an 800 dps tank against sansha/BR #5 Tracking of .05...with tachs o.O #6 Has spikey bits to impale corpses on Down sides: #1 Only Em/Therm damage which really isn't a problem if you (and you should) mission in amarr space. #2 High end fit needs a cap booster (not really an issue as I hardly use it in L4) #3 5% hardwires really make it shine #4 Tach fits really don't let you fit a prop mod but you really don't need one for missions. Remarks: As long as you mission in amarr space it will be king of PVE. Don't use pulse lasers for missions. What about drone hordes What about it being the team mate for an archon or thanny while running anoms?
Dunno about drone hordes, as the last time I was in drone space was before anoms came out. But for other spaces, you might do better with a different ship if you're teaming with a thanny/archon. That does depend though on whether the carrier is using fighters or sentries. If fighters, you want to have something like a legion to swat all the smaller ships. If using sentries, again you want something more like the legion so you can just assist the drones and not worry about actually having to lock things with the carrier's abysmal locking time.
Not saying the nightmare is bad... but it doesn't really compliment a carrier well...
-Arazel |
Arcosian
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
25
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Posted - 2012.10.26 16:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
From what I've heard it doesn't have a problem with them. Lots of people seem to use paladin/NM for drone anoms. And if you are using a carrier you could probably drop some of the tank/cap mods on the NM and fit more DPS and just RR/cap transfer what you need.
But pirate/T2 BS aren't very insurable unlike another carrier would be. And a high end NM fit will probably run about the same cost as a T2 fit carrier. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10144
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Posted - 2012.10.26 16:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Kasutra wrote:It also has the Amarr damage type issue. The Mach doesn't really suck vs. any of the large rat factions, the Nightmare is less universally applicable and thus gets mentioned in fewer forum discussions. The only rats that aren't weak to either EM or Thermal are Angels, which the Machariel will kill nicely. Amarr damage types are fine. It's pretty horrid against Guristas and Serpentis as well, since they have high EM resists and thermal only as their second highest. Yes, you can dish out a fair amount of damage, but going for second and fourth damage type (with a heavy bias towards the latter) isn't as nice as going for first and second or second and third, which blasters and projectiles let you do.
GǪon the other hand, the damage projection of large lasers (especially Tachs) will outweigh that at longer ranges.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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mecandbuttons
Shiny Toy Guns STR8NGE BREW
0
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Posted - 2012.10.26 17:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Irish,
I tried it out in a horde. It was actually not bad. I dont have all the skills at 5 for it and it still did pretty good on the test run. If you wanna try it out let me know. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
73
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Posted - 2012.10.26 18:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Kasutra wrote:It also has the Amarr damage type issue. The Mach doesn't really suck vs. any of the large rat factions, the Nightmare is less universally applicable and thus gets mentioned in fewer forum discussions. The only rats that aren't weak to either EM or Thermal are Angels, which the Machariel will kill nicely. Amarr damage types are fine. Guristas are horrible with a Nightmare - as are certain rogue drones (those with "standard" resists and lots of armour). At least compared to the joy of melting Blood Raiders, Sansha and the rest of the Rogue Drones.
That being said the 'mare is a fantastic ship in the right type of mission - Tachyon range and the volley damage are a significant factor in that. If you're running that type of mission then it's almost certain that a Nightmare will be more efficient than a Mach... but if you're mostly against Guristas, Angels and so forth then you're probably better off with something else. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
98
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Posted - 2012.10.26 18:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
irishFour wrote:I use a mach, its great, and i got into it because everyone on the forums rage about how awesome it is. Why dont they rage about the nightmare. More dps, similar skill requirements, a little different optimal and fall off.
It's big, it's slow, and except for rogue drones, it either has tanking issues or npc resistance issues.
However, for just sitting there and blowing things (preferably rogue drones, Sansha ships or Blood raider ships) to space dust, it works great.
It is, however, completely different from the Machariel. The Machariel is fast and lives by having selectable damage types, while the Nightmare is slow as a snail and never requires you to think about damage types. Just load faction multifrequency crystals, select your target, and vaporize it. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Bellum Esca Peregrine Nation
121
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Posted - 2012.10.26 20:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
It's awesome unless...
You don't fit a prop mod. You don't fit Tachs. You don't fit cap booster. If when thinking fit you think cap stable it is not for you. |
bufnitza calatoare
Snap Crackle Pop. Relativity Alliance
11
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Posted - 2012.10.27 10:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
for over two years I use a nightmare for amarr region based missions. did the job nicely.
now I use it for drone hordes and its wonderful.
my other char flies a mach so each in their own element they rock . altho the mach eats ammo like pacman eats yellow dots |
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Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
165
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Posted - 2012.10.27 16:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote:irishFour wrote:Arcosian wrote:The nightmare is awesome. What makes it awesome you ask? #1 Easy to get 1000+dps to well over 50km #2 Great damage projection #3 Faction crystals are pretty cheap and last forever. Best of all you only need 4 at a time rather than the LOL # for mach #4 Easy to fit an 800 dps tank against sansha/BR #5 Tracking of .05...with tachs o.O #6 Has spikey bits to impale corpses on Down sides: #1 Only Em/Therm damage which really isn't a problem if you (and you should) mission in amarr space. #2 High end fit needs a cap booster (not really an issue as I hardly use it in L4) #3 5% hardwires really make it shine #4 Tach fits really don't let you fit a prop mod but you really don't need one for missions. Remarks: As long as you mission in amarr space it will be king of PVE. Don't use pulse lasers for missions. What about drone hordes What about it being the team mate for an archon or thanny while running anoms? Dunno about drone hordes, as the last time I was in drone space was before anoms came out. But for other spaces, you might do better with a different ship if you're teaming with a thanny/archon. That does depend though on whether the carrier is using fighters or sentries. If fighters, you want to have something like a legion to swat all the smaller ships. If using sentries, again you want something more like the legion so you can just assist the drones and not worry about actually having to lock things with the carrier's abysmal locking time. Not saying the nightmare is bad... but it doesn't really compliment a carrier well... -Arazel
This.
Legion will synergize with an Archon much better for drone hordes. My nephew runs anoms and drones using either a Legion or a Paladin depending on his mood for the synergy (he uses Archon, does not have skills for a Thanny), and swears by them for it.
I would have to assume if you have a shield repping carrier the Nightmare would be the better option. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
209
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Posted - 2012.10.29 01:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:The nightmare is awesome. What makes it awesome you ask? #1 Easy to get 1000+dps to well over 50km #2 Great damage projection #3 Faction crystals are pretty cheap and last forever. Best of all you only need 4 at a time rather than the LOL # for mach #4 Easy to fit an 800 dps tank against sansha/BR #5 Tracking of .05...with tachs o.O #6 Has spikey bits to impale corpses on #7 FECKING VERTICAL Down sides: #1 Only Em/Therm damage which really isn't a problem if you (and you should) mission in amarr space. #2 High end fit needs a cap booster (not really an issue as I hardly use it in L4) #3 5% hardwires really make it shine #4 Tach fits really don't let you fit a prop mod but you really don't need one for missions. Remarks: As long as you mission in amarr space it will be king of PVE. Don't use pulse lasers for missions.
fixed CAUTION
SNIGGS |
McRoll
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
48
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Posted - 2012.10.29 14:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
What hasnt been mentioned yet probably is that the Nightmare gets totally screwed by tracking disruption. Too bad that it happens to be the rats that you fly mostly against. I stopped using my Paladin because I got sick of being tracking disrupted in several missions, it takes so friggin long to kill the disrupting rats with drones so you could have as well fly a lvl 4 in a Drake or something.
The projectile boats don't have that problem, they can take down all rats (except Guristas) with best damage types and are entirely unaffected by tracking disruption because they fight nearly always in falloff (if you use autocannons). |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
60
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Posted - 2012.10.29 15:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
McRoll wrote:The projectile boats don't have that problem, they can take down all rats (except Guristas) with best damage types and are entirely unaffected by tracking disruption because they fight nearly always in falloff (if you use autocannons).
Mach is no good against Guristas? The men waved their hats, the ladies their umbrellas. One felt they would have liked to touch the steel muscles of the most courageous champions since antiquity. Who will carry off the first prize, entering the pantheon where only supermen may go? |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
119
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Posted - 2012.10.29 16:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
The mach works fine vs guristas....though I'd argue that a rail vindi would be a bit better. The battleships tend to orbit very far out, compared to most mission battleships, meaning the mach either has to deal with heavy dps losses or spend time burning toward everything.
IMO, nightmares work best in pairs. You can set them up to be cap buddies, meaning capacitor isn't as big of an issue and you can fit for maximum dps application, which is where they start to get a little ridiculous. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
734
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Posted - 2012.10.29 17:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
McRoll wrote:What hasnt been mentioned yet probably is that the Nightmare gets totally screwed by tracking disruption. Too bad that it happens to be the rats that you fly mostly against. I stopped using my Paladin because I got sick of being tracking disrupted in several missions, it takes so friggin long to kill the disrupting rats with drones so you could have as well fly a lvl 4 in a Drake or something.
The projectile boats don't have that problem, they can take down all rats (except Guristas) with best damage types and are entirely unaffected by tracking disruption because they fight nearly always in falloff (if you use autocannons).
This isn't really unique to the Nightmare. All laser boats are to one extent or another gimped by tracking disruption. In fact, the NM is better off than most with its ability to fit tachs (which have a decent amount of falloff) and a tracking bonus (to mitigate tracking speed problems). |
Inkarr Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.10.29 17:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
As somewhat of a noob I'd like someone to explain something to me.
Tach: Sick range
Pulse: Much better cap stability (leaving more room for running your shield booster, leaving more cap boosters in your cargo) Better damage 64 km Scorch 2 to 3x better tracking Much more room in powergrid and CPU Cap stability and powergrid means you can use rigs other than CCC (I kinda like large elutriation II
You look at damage projection, Tach's range with Navy Ultra and Navy Gamma is similar to scorch. The damage of these types is also similar to scorch.
Does basically the entire argument come down to the fact that the nightmare can also burn to death anything within 80 km? How often do you really need that ability? Because scorch is already pretty impressive in both range and damage. And the rats are already going to be heading in your direction if you target one and so much as throw a rock at it, so its not like you need to slowboat for very long in that rare circumstance they spawn too far away from you. It seems like any mission where things spawn on you, you'll want pulse. Any mission where the gate drops you in the middle of the action, you want pulse. And finally, any situation where something is within range to TD you, I think pulse should do a better job of resisting that TD and successfully killing the perp than tachs would (due to superior tracking resisting that TD).
So if someone has had experience with both, and can tell me exactly why you would favor a beam fit in most circumstances, instead of favoring a pulse fit in both circumstances, I'd be very happy. |
yopparai
ASTARTES CORP Hashashin Cartel
1194
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 17:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nightmare
Since this terror was first seen haunting the spacelanes a year and a half ago, it has been the subject of persistent rumors to the effect that its design bears the indelible stamp of long-dead Sansha's own madness. Who else, the conspiracy theorists argue, could come up with such marvelously twisted designs?
Special Ability: 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking per level Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage per level |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
734
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 17:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Does basically the entire argument come down to the fact that the nightmare can also burn to death anything within 80 km?
That's one important component, yes. The Nightmare just doesn't like to, you know, move.
Inkarr Hashur wrote:And finally, any situation where something is within range to TD you, I think pulse should do a better job of resisting that TD and successfully killing the perp than tachs would (due to superior tracking resisting that TD).
This is the other thing. NPC TDs are... special. They absolutely murder optimal range and hurt tracking speed -- but they don't do anything at all to falloff. Pulses rely almost entirely on optimal and so get hit much harder than beams, which actually have decent falloff.
Edit: the third thing is that given equal DPS, you'll want to choose the higher alpha option under almost all circumstances. Tachs provide this over megabeam/scorch. |
Donnerjack Wolfson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 18:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paikis wrote:The Nightmare does have cap issues. Also, people love the machariel and have a massive hard on for projectiles. Shame they're mostly ignorant of falloff mechanics, otherwise they WOULD be raving about the Nightmare.
Projectiles get WAY more credit than they are actually due. EFT warriors love them.
That's because your average EFT warrior is ignorant of falloff mechanics.
1 falloff cuts off 50% damage.
2 cuts it to negligible.
Don't fight in falloff unless you have to. |
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