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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:31:00 -
[1]
Any 2-3 month plans for the trading / economic system ie perhaps new cargo types, any skill or other enhancements to trading apart from the introductions of frieghters ?
Any cooments you guys feel like making on this matter please lock if it has been discussed elsewhere in detail recently
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:43:00 -
[2]
Trading is fine.
NPC routes are there to give noobs an ISK making opportunity. ATM most products are made from a player production driven market. This is how it should be.
What would be nice is if - Only people with good stadning can purchase your goods (why should I be able to buy from Amarrians)
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: MutationZ Trading is fine.
What would be nice is if - Only people with good stadning can purchase your goods (why should I be able to buy from Amarrians)
I like that idea |
ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:46:00 -
[4]
ok why ?
and also how would stnadings be assessed - perhaps those with low standings could have to pay more or be able to sell for less with a 2% modifer in each direction.
(just suggeston following that last post)
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 04/04/2005 10:49:46
Originally by: MutationZ Trading is fine.
NPC routes are there to give noobs an ISK making opportunity. ATM most products are made from a player production driven market. This is how it should be.
What would be nice is if - Only people with good stadning can purchase your goods (why should I be able to buy from Amarrians)
Agreed.
NPC good traderoutes are there for new players. they add nothing to the game except and easy way to make some isk. No interaction at all, no influence on player economy other then bringing in isk.
Ideally, they would not exist. But new players need diverse income sources to keep mining from being their only alternative and boring them out of the game in their first 3 months.
Making buy ability standing based makes sense if you want NPC trading as an advanced player option as well. It needs more complications and variables then.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ollobrains ok why ?
and also how would stnadings be assessed - perhaps those with low standings could have to pay more or be able to sell for less with a 2% modifer in each direction.
(just suggeston following that last post)
Ideally you should be able to set your own standings to decide who you are willing to sell too. Character, corp, alliance, faction, race standings etc. By default you'd not have any restrictions, but you could set it so for example I would sell things to high standing Amarrians for a 5% discount, neutral standing Amarrs and Caldaris for "normal" prices and refuse to sell to Minnies, Amarrs with low standing to the Empire and those dirty Galls
Possiblities are endless and would add a bit of RP to the market and make good use of standings.
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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:54:00 -
[7]
And im guessing trading with NPC goods would be unaffected just player to player trading ? ie POS equipment and supplies ie oxygen, ICE etc ?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:55:00 -
[8]
Ideally, traderoutes would be driven by NPC events. Famine in one system leading to a high demend of foodstuffs, etc, according to pre-scripted thingies.
I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ollobrains And im guessing trading with NPC goods would be unaffected just player to player trading ? ie POS equipment and supplies ie oxygen, ICE etc ?
Standings could of course be used to influence NPC trade, i.e. Amarr corporations would charge Minnies with high standing to the Republic more... just not sure if its very usefull.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.04.04 10:57:00 -
[10]
Oh yeah
That's what he meant.
Being able to resctrict orders by standing or other factors is something very interesting.
Exerting direct and aimed force with the market has not been possible yet. It's one underdeveloped tool in Eve indeed. It adds more consequences to ingame actions (you don't want everyone to set you personally to -10 in that case :p), and it adds more variables for producers to play with on the market.
A very good idea.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 11:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Discorporation I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
Bought my first BS on the profits on those... I still think the amount of ISK to be made from transcranials was a bug...
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.04 11:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MutationZ What would be nice is if - Only people with good stadning can purchase your goods (why should I be able to buy from Amarrians)
Well, maybe the Amarrians realise that your isk are as good as any other for funding their next slaving run
While it sounds like a nice idea, it opens up the possibilty of breaking the market as a free-trade system. The whole economics dynamic relies on goods being freely traded across the market, irrespective of empire, alliance or corp boundaries. Implement this, and it's entirely possible you'd end up with multiple, parallel, closed alliance economies within the market. If formed from the larger alliances or even some of the megacorps, these are more than large enough to be self-sustaining. This would tie up a huge chunk of supply away from the "public" market, leaving the small corps and newbies in a supply-starved market.
Now, I can see why this may have uses within 0.0 - you don't want enemy raiders to be buying supplies off you, for instance. And it would kinda make sense, especially integrated into the wider player empire building Oveur hinted at elsewhere. But in empire, I feel it would have too many negative effects - there needs to be a free market in empire, otherwise anyone not in an alliance could be left scrabbling for the scraps those alliances choose to throw them. Plus, in an RP sense, concord enforces peace and freedom of movement, so it makes sense that they'd promote freedom of trade too.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Matthew While it sounds like a nice idea, it opens up the possibilty of breaking the market as a free-trade system.
Personally I think it would encourage the idea of smaller local markets. To take a RL example, if I imported "stuff" into the U.K. from the USA, I would probably pay all sorts of duties and taxes on the "stuff". Also in RL its generally acceptable for a shopkeeper to deny service to any customer for any reason (least in areas I'm from).
Thats the kind of thing standings could be used to implement in Eve. They could be an ecouragement to build a local economy, instead of building/moving/selling everything in Yulai DED (avoid taxes and standings based import duties)
In a smaller economy groups of corps could get together and agree to some discounts for each other, forming a kind of trade agreement in the area using standings. Perhaps at some point some nasty pirates move into the area and start preying on these more peaceful corps. Then standings could be used to reduce the pirates abilities to buy replacement ships locally and make life harder for them, giving an industrial corp/group a weapon to use against the pirates instead of just "get in a ship and attack!".
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Discorporation I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
Bought my first BS on the profits on those... I still think the amount of ISK to be made from transcranials was a bug...
Seeing it was put down like a rabid dog in a matter of minutes, I think you're right.
Didn't make that much, tho ;/
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Discorporation I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
Bought my first BS on the profits on those... I still think the amount of ISK to be made from transcranials was a bug...
Seeing it was put down like a rabid dog in a matter of minutes, I think you're right.
Didn't make that much, tho ;/
A matter of minutes?? I traded them for about a week. Started out in a Punisher and invested 1 mill ISK. When I stopped I had made over 250mill. Was easily the most insane money making venture I've ever seen in Eve to date...
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Sammira
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
NPC good traderoutes are there for new players. they add nothing to the game except and easy way to make some isk. No interaction at all, no influence on player economy other then bringing in isk.
(
Hmm... NPC trade goods are a tricky one imho. I make some money buying and selling trade goods from NPC's and players. Buy trade goods from both NPC's and players and sell to both NPC's and players for differing reasons.
For example:
I bought in Oxygen at ~20% NPC price from Players. I can move and sell on at 5 x profit to the NPC's or ~ 8-10 x from the POS runners. I also sell the Oxygen in bulk at < NPC price as well from fixed locations, there by helping the POS economy in a small way by dropping running costs.
Hell, if I could I'd do alot more of that from central locations/specific areas but I've not really looked into it seriously for cost effectiveness.
However, as you say, these aren't true following of the NPC trade routes as they involve buying from players orignally, rather than from the NPC's. Players could make use of the Trade routes to involve POS owners which *would* alter the economy a little.
)
Drink StarsiÖ + [DS] Haulage Production Division Caldari State Citizen
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:31:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 04/04/2005 12:31:45 Ah yes, the few actually usefull trade goods excempted of course.
I have a feeling we will be seeing mroe of them come into use, and in time, we will see NPC demand get adjusted to not be profitable any longer.
Either that, or less profit to discourage freighter trading later on taking all the new play profit margin.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/04/2005 12:35:07
Originally by: Discorporation Ideally, traderoutes would be driven by NPC events. Famine in one system leading to a high demend of foodstuffs, etc, according to pre-scripted thingies.
I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
Heh.
You know who was running 90% of them, right? I personally made over 800 mil, and I know I wasn't the biggest winner from them in my corp...
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: mahhy A matter of minutes?? I traded them for about a week. Started out in a Punisher and invested 1 mill ISK. When I stopped I had made over 250mill. Was easily the most insane money making venture I've ever seen in Eve to date...
nono, I mean demand + supply gone in like 2 mins. As in, poof, in thin air [:0]
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/04/2005 12:35:07
Originally by: Discorporation Ideally, traderoutes would be driven by NPC events. Famine in one system leading to a high demend of foodstuffs, etc, according to pre-scripted thingies.
I also miss exploiting Transcranials.
Heh.
You know who was running 90% of them, right? I personally made over 800 mil, and I know I wasn't the biggest winner from them in my corp...
Of course I know, where'd you think I got the info from
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: mahhy A matter of minutes?? I traded them for about a week. Started out in a Punisher and invested 1 mill ISK. When I stopped I had made over 250mill. Was easily the most insane money making venture I've ever seen in Eve to date...
nono, I mean demand + supply gone in like 2 mins. As in, poof, in thin air [:0]
Hahaha.. thats so very true.
1.) Place buy orders JUST before DT 2.) Buy orders absolutely full right after DT 3.) Spend hours moving them all from various places 4.) PROFIT!
Then of course once you got them where they needed to be you tried to coax the NPC buy price up by selling one or two at a time... it even worked sometimes.
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Sammira
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
I have a feeling we will be seeing mroe of them come into use, and in time, we will see NPC demand get adjusted to not be profitable any longer.
Either that, or less profit to discourage freighter trading later on taking all the new play profit margin.
(
I'm hoping for more of them becoming more and more useful in the other tech II stuff and then in tech III etc etc. They're also useful in the Aurora EVENT's in some cases, like the GFTL transportE EVENT. But I agree, the freighters will change the market dynamic somewhat.
Either way, freighters will give me (and others) the ability to utilise these stockpiles of trade goods we do have either for NPC demand (boo /o\) or player stuff like production or POS (yey \o/). )
Drink StarsiÖ + [DS] Haulage Production Division Caldari State Citizen
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: mahhy A matter of minutes?? I traded them for about a week. Started out in a Punisher and invested 1 mill ISK. When I stopped I had made over 250mill. Was easily the most insane money making venture I've ever seen in Eve to date...
nono, I mean demand + supply gone in like 2 mins. As in, poof, in thin air [:0]
Hahaha.. thats so very true.
1.) Place buy orders JUST before DT 2.) Buy orders absolutely full right after DT 3.) Spend hours moving them all from various places 4.) PROFIT!
Then of course once you got them where they needed to be you tried to coax the NPC buy price up by selling one or two at a time... it even worked sometimes.
Ah, the old days. I remember all those long forum arguments and flames over downtime trading and it's effect on the markets.
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.04.04 12:40:00 -
[24]
The problems with traderoutes is that usually it are just a few players with extremely large wallets who just buy up everything and either haul it theirselves by alts or put everything up for a higher price.
I think this should be more restriced to standings and having special contacts who sell and buy certain amounts of players directly and not with the market.
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Vicarrah
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Posted - 2005.04.04 13:36:00 -
[25]
the more use we get out of standings the better..... why should pirates be able to re-supply from their enemies? why can't traders decide who they want to be able to buy their goods?
A market where you are forced to use price as the only deciding factor is a broken market IMHO
Vicarrah Tahiri Protector |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.04 14:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: mahhy Also in RL its generally acceptable for a shopkeeper to deny service to any customer for any reason (least in areas I'm from).
This is true. But then the political situation in RL is considerably more stable than in eve. Also, the eve market seems to work more like an RL stock market than a shop anyway.....and RL corps can't decide who can and can't buy their shares once they list publically.
Besides, the health of the game relies on at least standard equipment being reasonably avaliable on the market. Without that, the entire game would quickly grind to a halt. Forcing a newbie to get good standings with an alliance (most of which won't talk to any char less than 6 months old) just to get access to a decent market, would be a very bad idea.
Originally by: mahhy Thats the kind of thing standings could be used to implement in Eve. They could be an ecouragement to build a local economy, instead of building/moving/selling everything in Yulai DED (avoid taxes and standings based import duties)
The problem is that the megacorps and alliances will form their own economies, with the majority of the supply in them. These won't be local at all - they'll still bring stuff to Yulai, cause that's the easiest place for all their scattered members to get to. There will just be half a dozen closed, parallel economies running in Yulai at the same time. Yulai will still have the most stuff on the market, the only difference will be that a neutral char in a small corp probably wouldn't be able to buy most of it.
Originally by: mahhy In a smaller economy groups of corps could get together and agree to some discounts for each other, forming a kind of trade agreement in the area using standings.
Which is great for anyone in the group, but if that group is a significant producer in the area, anyone outside the group is a bit stuck.
Originally by: mahhy Perhaps at some point some nasty pirates move into the area and start preying on these more peaceful corps. Then standings could be used to reduce the pirates abilities to buy replacement ships locally and make life harder for them, giving an industrial corp/group a weapon to use against the pirates instead of just "get in a ship and attack!".
That would be cool. But I would suggest it can be done without the more wide-reaching standings system being used in empire.
In 0.0, standings systems would be feasible, to go along with wider player territory control etc. In 0.5+, I would suggest market restrictions should be used only with war enemies. After all, that's the only time you're formally in conflict with someone in empire space. That way, you could be sure of not aiding your enemies, without damaging the free-flowing empire market. 0.1-0.4 as usual is the tricky one, and could be argued both ways.
Note, I'm in favour of the idea in theory, I'm just wary of how it'll turn out in practice. Take it too far, and we'll end up with people having to get dragged into eve politics just to buy standard equipment at resonable prices in empire systems.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.04 14:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vicarrah A market where you are forced to use price as the only deciding factor is a broken market IMHO
A market where you have to declare undying loyalty to the vendor to get a decent price is also a broken market.
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