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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
16
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.
I think this is not a fair argument.
Consider a situation where all PVPers in the game agreed to fight each other until one entered structure, at that point a killmail would be generated and the loser, who had entered structure, would be obliged to return to a station and not to use that ship again for 24 hours.
Under this arrangement PVP would continue but industrial activity, in all but ammo manufacturing, would cease to exist. All pilots would buy one or two copies of each ship in the game and would not need to buy ships again. It would be a PVP paradise, with no need to grind money to pay for ships you could fight and fight forever.
Now obviously nobody wants this but it illustrates the point, all industrial activity in EVE is built on risk. It is founded on people taking a risk, screwing up and getting blown up. This creates the opportunity to build a new ship. It is very rare people undock wanting to get blown up and when they do get blown up it is because they were taking a risk to achieve something they want and it went wrong.
Of course there is the expansion of the subscriber base, when new players want new ships, but expansion also creates new industrialists so overall itGÇÖs effect is small.
So this means if you want to mine or make ships or trade what you are doing is profiting off someone who took a risk and got blown up and now has to replace their ship. So saying you want to do any of these things but not have anything to do with those nasty PVPers is completely hypocritical. Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do.
So saying, GÇ£I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialistGÇ¥ is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. ItGÇÖs unbalanced. ItGÇÖs like PVPers asking for ships that respawn, it just distorts the game in the favour of one specific group.
Industrialists who seek great rewards should have to take great risks to get them. This feeds the system with risk and allows those rewards to be generated. It is fair, everyone in the game takes risks to get rewards.
I donGÇÖt think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.
High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.
So no wonder people say GÇ£leave us alone, we like it as it isGÇ¥.
Thanks |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
16
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);
High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium
Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)
Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.
I propose changing this to
High Sec, Tritanium
Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium
Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.
Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.
Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.
And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.
These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heartGÇÖs content. But it wouldnGÇÖt be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.
TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.
Thanks |
Sidrat Flush
Eve Industrial Corp
17
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's a risk to pit an item on the market because tomorrow it could patched out of the game. Or the mineral prices could rise creating a potential loss to the builder.
It's a small tldr for a two page post. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
421
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Geligdio Khan wrote:A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.
I think this is not a fair
Life ain't a fair get over it & stop your whine Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up.-á Typical NULL seccer whine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u299-o66wo&feature=related |
Nanatoa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
120
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Geligdio Khan wrote: GÇ£stop pushing us around"
I do hear that a lot, except with "bumping" instead of "pushing"
It is never too late to turn from the errors of your ways: He who repents of his sins is almost innocent.
MinerBumping.com |
Robert De'Arneth
180
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet. You have not lived until you have been Wated by Jim!!-á-á |
Sharise Dragonstar
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
5
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
I agree with the mining proposals but maybe have scordite and pyrite available in high sec too. The mission idea I disagree with risk vs reward has to be balanced and running a lvl 4 in low sec is suicidal as pirates will just converge on mission hub area scan you down, wait for you to get room aggro, scramble you and boom. PvP fitted ships are not suitable for mission running and vice versa.
Biggest issue you will face is that you will be correct in high seccers moving out of high sec due to little profits, however it will not be to either low or null sec but to a different game. Could CCP afford the loss of that many accounts? |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1428
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions. lol. |
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CCP Falcon
366
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Robert De'Arneth wrote:Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.
This is an awesome post
CCP Falcon -á-á||-á-áEVE Community Developer -á-á|| -á-áEVE Illuminati -á-á||-á-á@CCP_Falcon |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1102
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."
That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.
PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
325
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions. lol.
HAHA "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
18
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."
That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.
PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.
Thanks for the input.
My point is Industrialists want to sell to PVPers and PVEers, that's the primary way they interact, and it is intrinsic to the life of the industrialist.
Sure you could go out and mine and manufacture and fill hangar after hangar with rifters, but I doubt many people play like that, most people want to sell what they make. That needs a buyer, and in most cases, that buyer took a risk, got unlucky and now has to replace their ship.
Thanks |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
18
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions. lol.
Well I think missions are deeply tied to industry. Supplying them is big business. So moving them out of High Sec would move a lot of industrials out with them.
But I see your point. Thanks |
Vel'drinn
EVE Protection Agency Intrepid Crossing
28
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
I actually find it even more rewarding to murder people with ships I've built, including bullets crafted with love |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
325
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 16:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Geligdio Khan wrote:So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);
High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium
Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)
Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.
I propose changing this to
High Sec, Tritanium
Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium
Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.
Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.
Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.
And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.
These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heartGÇÖs content. But it wouldnGÇÖt be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.
TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.
Why is your 15 bucks a month more important than mine?
I agree with the mineral distribution. Disagree with themanfuacturing change. That would do nothing except raise the end cost of products and industrialist would just pass that cost back to you. If you want to change hi sec manufacturing, make it so that
-You have to be in a player corp to do manufacturing on a large scale -You have to conduct manufacturing processes at a POS in hi sec -Your corp has to have good standing with NPC corp to manufacture at their station(s)
The level 4 changes are not good. Instead:
-Make it so that you need to be in a player corp in order to run level 3 or 4 missions
"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
20
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Posted - 2012.10.30 16:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
How about hipocricy of null bears and pvprs ? They need stuf to pvp - kill and gank other, but they hate carebears who mining ore and bulid ships for them, also zero logic... In theory more they hate miners, more they pay for ice - ore and higer cost of ships and other stuf, because less people mining or is just hard to get ore due to risk, populations needs etc.
I hear EvE is santbox, please dont force people to play like you want, you got own vision of gaming but you are wrong. Empire is basic game content and part of EvE same like null space and both places got own rules and purpose.
Your vision of ore in empire is totaly wrong, people who love mining or industry need a lot specific ores and stuf to do, imagine if here only tritanium in empire to mining, sorry but this is EvE not pacman, universe it self should be rich and offer even more type of ores - minerals than existed in game, like in real universe. |
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
648
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Awesome....
Another Future war target. What a horrible post. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist.
The Crazy Space Poor South African.
*Hair done by LGÇÖOr+¬al, because I'm worth it. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
297
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP,
I get what you're trying to say, but you totally miss the point.
High sec exists for a reason. It's why it's called High Sec. As in, "High Security". It comes with a large number of penalties. If someone wants to stay in secure space, and pay for it through these penalties, that's their business. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical about that at all.
And while I totally agree industry is based on resupplying after a loss, the resupply can happen with raw materials coming from all security areas. I know people who prefer mining in null rather than high sec. I know one guy who lives in a wormhole, but still manufactures.
Your argument that "if all PvP would stop at structure, EVE industry would die" is also very one-sided. Because if all industrialists suddenly decided to stop producing, EVE would also die. Things like ammo, cap boosters, drones, etc., would all have to come from someplace. You can't PvP without drones or ammo. You could make your own, but that doesn't fit into my "everyone stops production" rule, as "everyone" includes you. It also illustrates that your "everyone stops shooting at structure" rule is just as flawed, as many people would continue shooting for the heck of it (let's face it, a large percentage of EVE's population isn't exactly normal).
Bottom line, I see no hypocrisy. If EVE is a sandbox, people should be free to play the way they like. If someone wants to produce items from the safety of high sec, they should have that option and it should be viable. You should also have the option to kill them, and you do (ganking, wardecs, what have you). So what's the problem? |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
604
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
More awful nonsense from the delusional hermits of 0.0. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
You seem...upset. |
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Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
308
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Montevius Williams wrote:
Why is your 15 bucks a month more important than mine?
Because I'm using Old Money, which is apparently better. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
1611
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:More awful nonsense from the delusional hermits of 0.0.
Pseudo-intellectual individual splutters something. Has a quote from some famous as a signature so said individual show off to everyone just intellectual he wishes he was.
I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
367
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Robert De'Arneth wrote:Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.
Bought a helmet, now want to headbutt OP while wearing it for starting yet another Nerf Highsec thread. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
604
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Pseudo-intellectual individual splutters something. Has a quote from some famous as a signature so said individual show off to everyone just intellectual he wishes he was.
Shouldn't even be talking about signatures, when yours looks like it was written by someone in elementary school. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
1612
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Posted - 2012.10.30 17:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Robert De'Arneth wrote:Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet. Bought a helmet, now want to headbutt OP while wearing it for starting yet another Nerf Highsec thread.
You brought a bike helmet to a flame fest? Oh, how foolish you must feel now.
Bane Necran wrote:Alpheias wrote:Pseudo-intellectual individual splutters something. Has a quote from some famous as a signature so said individual show off to everyone just intellectual he wishes he was.
Shouldn't even be talking about signatures, when yours looks like it was written by someone in elementary school.
I agree, my signature looks like it was written in a school while yours just shrieks 'BAAAAAAAAAW'. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
18
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Posted - 2012.10.30 17:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:OP,
I get what you're trying to say, but you totally miss the point.
High sec exists for a reason. It's why it's called High Sec. As in, "High Security". It comes with a large number of penalties. If someone wants to stay in secure space, and pay for it through these penalties, that's their business. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical about that at all.
And while I totally agree industry is based on resupplying after a loss, the resupply can happen with raw materials coming from all security areas. I know people who prefer mining in null rather than high sec. I know one guy who lives in a wormhole, but still manufactures.
Your argument that "if all PvP would stop at structure, EVE industry would die" is also very one-sided. Because if all industrialists suddenly decided to stop producing, EVE would also die. Things like ammo, cap boosters, drones, etc., would all have to come from someplace. You can't PvP without drones or ammo. You could make your own, but that doesn't fit into my "everyone stops production" rule, as "everyone" includes you. It also illustrates that your "everyone stops shooting at structure" rule is just as flawed, as many people would continue shooting for the heck of it (let's face it, a large percentage of EVE's population isn't exactly normal).
Bottom line, I see no hypocrisy. If EVE is a sandbox, people should be free to play the way they like. If someone wants to produce items from the safety of high sec, they should have that option and it should be viable. You should also have the option to kill them, and you do (ganking, wardecs, what have you). So what's the problem?
Thanks for the response.
I think it's clear to all players that PVPers rely on industrials to make things for them. In fact one of the main arguments against a High Sec nerf is that prices would increase. So yeah, both parties need each other and the health of each directly affects the other. I wrote this post to show how industrialists rely on PVPers, which I think is more subtle.
This whole
" EVE is a sandbox, people should be free to play the way they like."
thing I believe to be wrong. Sandbox does not mean anyone can play however they want. If this were true could the goons not ask for exemption from the security rules? After all, they can play however they want.
Can I have a respawning ship in the shape of a dragon that has infinite drones? Surely I can play however I want.
How each player acts affects all the other players and what options are available to the players change the game experience for others. Play options should be taken away if they are massively detrimental to the experience of others.
I think High Sec is too good and is detrimental to the overall health of the game. I think the fact that 71% of toons live there is proof it is too good.
I don't think just because it is that way now means anyone has a sacred right to have that protected. The goal is to make a thriving game where everyone feels they have a place to play.
I hope this is a reasonable response, as I say, thanks for reading my post and thoughtfully responding to it. Thanks |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
192
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2063
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'. I agree. |
Iam a Spy2
solo and loveing it
26
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Posted - 2012.10.30 17:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
not another nerf high BS post.
lol. GIve it up. |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
18
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Posted - 2012.10.30 17:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
That is something to be considered.
I think the safety of Null is due to the dedicated activity of large groups of well organised players and I think their safety is a fair reward for all of this activity.
The safety of High is a gift from the gods and is therefore harder to justify. Thanks |
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