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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
725
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
How many more of these anti hi-sec threads must we endure?
Perhaps the Thread Overlords should put them all into one long thread and only allow new anti hi-sec threads if they contain some original thoughts and or ideas. This is not a signature. |
Arduemont
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
565
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Posting in another nerf highsec whine thread. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
192
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'. I agree.
"Oh noes I can't cyno and hot drop people, how am I supposed to PvP?!"
As easy it is to close your hole it is just as easy for someone to open up to you.
But then that requires work and effort that pubbies could not care to do. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
113
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Did you notice?. "Nerf hisec" threads becomes as awkward as "nerf afk cloaking" threads. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
192
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Did you notice?. "Nerf hisec" threads becomes as awkward as "nerf afk cloaking" threads.
Exactly, plenty complain that their automatic and infallible Intel system can't show afk status. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2064
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'. I agree. "Oh noes I can't lock down every entry point with large mass ships whenever I want to carebear, how am I supposed to live in space?" Well said. |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
192
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'. I agree. "Oh noes I can't lock down every entry point with large mass ships whenever I want to carebear while being protected from cynos, how am I supposed to live in space?" Well said.
Come and try collapsing with your large mass ship we love big juicy kill mails. We'll be waiting for you.
"Oh noes my super is being attacked. Time to call for help while I tank them with my 30 million ehp/ I'll just cyno out."
"System defence? What's that? I have a thousand blues in adjacent systems that will come save me." |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2064
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'. I agree. "Oh noes I can't lock down every entry point with large mass ships whenever I want to carebear while being protected from cynos, how am I supposed to live in space?" Well said. Come and try collapsing with your large mass ship. Wormhole space is extremely safe, that is why it has only one twentieth the kills of 0.0 while having a quarter of the population. . Only highsec beats it in safety, so don't worry about any harm coming to your ship in any way. A very warm invitation. Thank you. |
Beekeeper Bob
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
274
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:23:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Robert De'Arneth wrote:Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet. This is an awesome post
What she should have said is "See what happens when you don't wear a raincoat daddy?"
"CCP, is a cutting edge developer, they have found a way to sell lag to their customers, and make them believe it's a feature." |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
192
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
We welcome more people to come into wormhole they are safe.
Trust me, we'll help you out if you show us which wh you live in. |
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Thead Enco
Awesome Corp
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
It seems OP wants to take dagger to this game. With those proposed changes industry would slow to a crawl and I cannot see m/oving my mining ops to low sec, I would rather do it in w-space. But let's face it most people don't like current 0.0 mechanics and the politics that go along with it. I choose how I play this game, So the real question is can CCP afford to alienate a good number of the community? And can they survive mass exodus if one should happen. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
342
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions. lol.
At the end of the day, they are the same thing, in the same way my ratting in null sec is. It's introducing something into the game that did not exist the moment before. When i do it in null sec, there are real (but mitigatable) risks, when I do it in high sec with Incursions and Missions there are risks (like a massive Disconnect in an incursion or some kind of gankers in my mission) but those risks are so small it's safe to say they've never happened to me or the majority of people who play in high sec.
I enjoy the "chill out factor" of high sec , and while I don't see things are crazy out of whack right now, I understand why people have concerns about high sec. I won't repost it, but I have linked a post by Malcanis in the past (linking to a dev blog) demonstrating that null sec (for example) is, in terms of ships lost 4.5 times more dangerous than high sec (20 times more dangeorus if you ignore pve loses).
And yet I can make as much isk in high sec dual boxing my mach and tengu in a mission or using my 1 vindicator in a shiney Vanguard Incursion fleet as I an running all but the absolute best anoms in null sec, anoms that don't now spawn in most systems. In high sec I never ever have to dock up because of a neut in local, and you can't make near the same isk in low sec or null sec incursions because someone will come and kill you. The worst thing anyone can do to you in a high sec incursion is preload certain killer sites lol.
Like I said, it's out of whack, and those "miners who want to be left alone" should leave US alone and stop mining, because every mineral they mine affects every single other player in the game. I say "Bump away" James, "BUMP AWAY". |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
342
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:21:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."
That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.
PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.
Incorrect
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235
High Sec PVP: 1,974,022 PVE: 6,317,926 Total: 8,291,948
Low Sec PVP: 4,126,911 PVE: 510,683 Total: 4,637,594
Null Sec PVP: 7,061,988 PVE: 568,353 Total: 7,630,341
Wormhole Space PVP: 377,786 PVE: 162,126
High Sec has (in that 4 year report) the lowest level of pvp kills of any section of normal space. Whats bad is that Wormholes didn't even exist for the entire 4 year survey period but probably would have generated more pvp deaths if it had.
High sec is out of whack when it comes to ship deaths per capita, and ships getting blown up is THE thing that drives the economy. Most of the PVE deaths in high were almost inconsequential low level/cheap ships killed in things like toutorial missions.
High sec is way to safe. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1992
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Geligdio Khan wrote:A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.
I think this is not a fair argument.
You clearly missed the thread where a bunch of miners and gankers complained about the mining barge buff due to reducing the risk of mining in hisec.
Your argument is not fair because you based it on invalid assumptions. You can PvP all the time in hisec, it's just that there are penalties for certain types of PvP. Go and PvP to your heart's content, and don't pay any heed to the small group of players who will complain about anything that doesn't go their way (the most annoying being the people complaining about people complaining about PvP in hisec). Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
20
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Geligdio Khan wrote:A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.
I think this is not a fair argument.
You clearly missed the thread where a bunch of miners and gankers complained about the mining barge buff due to reducing the risk of mining in hisec. Your argument is not fair because you based it on invalid assumptions. You can PvP all the time in hisec, it's just that there are penalties for certain types of PvP. Go and PvP to your heart's content, and don't pay any heed to the small group of players who will complain about anything that doesn't go their way (the most annoying being the people complaining about people complaining about PvP in hisec).
My point is not that you can't PVP in High Sec, my point is that High Sec provides too many rewards for too little risk, that it is too good a place to do industry and the game should naturally incentivise people to leave. Thanks |
Dar Manic
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 19:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Another person trying to fix something which really isn't broken.
If you remember that ultimately eve is just a game which is making money for CCP, you'll begin to understand why this isn't a good idea... most of the suggestions by 'vets' aren't good for the long term health of the profits for CCP (it's true is most online games I've admin'd and/or played).
**edit** "the game should naturally incentivise people to leave."
There's the main problem. Players shouldn't have to leave hi-sec. If you want to make more isk then you leave but they shouldn't have to just to suit pvp'ers. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
Limitting what can be mined in high sec and nerfing without providing some form of incentive, isn't the answer.
Being able to impact mineral output in high is the answer. It's a player driven game, players need to be able to impact the flow of goods in all of New Eden.
The current flow of minerals in high sec is hurting the economy by keeping high sec manufactured goods low; making importing almost the go to method of supply null sec.
NPC loot items devalueing and pushing T1 manufactured goods out of the market is the other problem. |
Iorek Corvus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
OP: What's a fair argument? You don't own the game, from a statistic posted later in the thread 71% of toons live in hi-sec. If those players left the game because they were forced into the structure you advocate would the game still exist? It may be that in-game losing ships drives the economy but in RL subscriptions drive the game.
You may feel that you are keeping the game going by losing ships and driving the economy but you are just one subscriber playing the way that you want to play. Others may want to play differently but they still subscribe which is the true lifeblood of the game. As much as you may hate them these people help to subsidise the way you want to play.
If you don't like it unsub, if enough people unsub for the same reasons then the game will shift because ccp will need to make it more equitable to keep subscriber numbers. In order to survive eve needs to put the needs of the many before the needs of the one (or you).
Until then STFU or unsub, don't whine. |
Dar Manic
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
^^ This ^^ :) |
Geligdio Khan
JD Mining Industry
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:44:00 -
[50] - Quote
Iorek Corvus wrote:OP: What's a fair argument? You don't own the game, from a statistic posted later in the thread 71% of toons live in hi-sec. If those players left the game because they were forced into the structure you advocate would the game still exist? It may be that in-game losing ships drives the economy but in RL subscriptions drive the game.
You may feel that you are keeping the game going by losing ships and driving the economy but you are just one subscriber playing the way that you want to play. Others may want to play differently but they still subscribe which is the true lifeblood of the game. As much as you may hate them these people help to subsidise the way you want to play.
If you don't like it unsub, if enough people unsub for the same reasons then the game will shift because ccp will need to make it more equitable to keep subscriber numbers. In order to survive eve needs to put the needs of the many before the needs of the one (or you).
Until then STFU or unsub, don't whine.
This is a bit of a problem for the games long term existence.
Lots of players say they will quit if the thing they like is nerfed. CCP can't bow to this. What if I got 100,000 WOW players to subscribe and demand Elves in space forests with magic, should CCP give it to them because there are many of them? Or because they will quit if they don't get what they want?
People play this game because it is awesome. That is why they subscribe. CCP should aim to keep it awesome, and make it more awesome, and this will cause more players to join.
If CCP goes down the path of giving people gifts to not unsub then they will be held to ransom over and over again.
I believe High Sec is too profitable for how risky it is, I believe it needs nerfing and I don't think CCP should sacrfice the long term prospects of the game because they are being blackmailed by those who threaten to quit if they don't get what they want.
Moreover anyone who is that close to rage quitting is not a good market to sell to as they will always come across something in the future that will make them quit. Thanks |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5399
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dar Manic wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
^^ This ^^ :)
We'll talk about local and all that when the risk/reward of hisec is properly balanced. ~*a-áproud belligerent undesirable*~ |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
398
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dar Manic wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
^^ This ^^ :) Many people do not see the real issue.
It's not "safety", it's not "risk", it's the inablity of people to have real impact on high sec mineral production. The lack of impat is creating an economic problem that impacts all of New Eden.
Miners complaining about bumping and ganking are the ones who created this problem, and only want to make it worse by eleminating all impact that anyone can have on them.
Miners should WANT other miners to get blown up, it benefits them. The problem is that if that miner can be blown up than they can too, and they don't want that. So they're content to just say, no, to player impact while they flood the markets with an overabundance of low end minerals that keeps high sec goods from matching inflation.
High sec industry is making less than their potential, and they don't seem to understand this.
It's not risk and safety, it's dollars and cents, and sense. |
Iorek Corvus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
"I believe High Sec is too profitable for how risky it is, I believe it needs nerfing and I don't think CCP should sacrfice the long term prospects of the game because they are being blackmailed by those who threaten to quit if they don't get what they want."
Funnily enough I agree with you. However CCP have to walk a fine line between keeping the game true to its roots and keeping the subsriber base. In the long run it probably means keeping no one totally happy but also no one so unhappy they'll unsub.
What the right balance is I have no idea but calling for nerfs, whines etc is not going to change the situation.
|
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
217
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Robert De'Arneth wrote:Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet. This is an awesome post
Confirming that many in this thread should be wearing helmets. |
Dar Manic
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
"High sec industry is making less than their potential, and they don't seem to understand this. "
Ahh, so you are doing this out of the goodness of your heart for the hi-sec miners? And to think, they don't even know they aren't enjoying the game. You should convo each and everyone of them so they will know they aren't really enjoying the game. ;)
p.s. grammar is exactly as intended. ;) |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
398
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dar Manic wrote:"High sec industry is making less than their potential, and they don't seem to understand this. "
Ahh, so you are doing this out of the goodness of your heart for the hi-sec miners? And to think, they don't even know they aren't enjoying the game. You should convo each and everyone of them so they will know they aren't really enjoying the game. ;)
p.s. grammar is exactly as intended. ;) What does "enjoying the game" have to do with this?
When did I say they weren't "enjoying the game"?
It seems as though you tried to agrue against the diea that high sec industrialists aren't making as much as they can with the arguement that I implied that they aren't "enjoying the game".
They can make more, and they don't seem to realize that demanding less impact on them from other players means they make less. Making more isk off fewer minerals would indeed make them more isk, because it implies that mineral prices are higher.
And yes indeed, higher mineral prices in high sec would make industrialist more money, and benefit null by allowing us the ability to do more of our own manufacturing in null, and LESS IMPORTING of goods from high sec.
I can make more importing than building, and it has everything to do with the affordability to manufacture in high.
Believe it or not, there's real world models at work here. In effect, high sec is like China, and null is more like the US; from an economic standpoint. Corporations, like the federal reserve, do everything in there power to ensure that manufacturing is not affordable in the US because other corporations make more money by pushing manufacturing into countries were it's cheaper.
Null isn't doing though, high sec industry that doesn't want any player impact on them is. In otherwords, instead of the US intentionally inflating the economy, and china intentionally keeping inflation down, what we have is a US entirely subjected to the whims of China's cheaper economy.
Sometimes producing things for to cheap, is bad on other peoples economy. In this case Null suffers from things being to cheap in high sec. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1657
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:25:00 -
[57] - Quote
Andski wrote:Dar Manic wrote:Soon Shin wrote:I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.
^^ This ^^ :) We'll talk about local and all that when the risk/reward of hisec is properly balanced. No, nerf null first and worry about totally murdering it for the expansion after Retribution. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Dar Manic
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:31:00 -
[58] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Dar Manic wrote:"High sec industry is making less than their potential, and they don't seem to understand this. "
Ahh, so you are doing this out of the goodness of your heart for the hi-sec miners? And to think, they don't even know they aren't enjoying the game. You should convo each and everyone of them so they will know they aren't really enjoying the game. ;)
p.s. grammar is exactly as intended. ;) What does "enjoying the game" have to do with this? When did I say they weren't "enjoying the game"? It seems as though you tried to agrue against the diea that high sec industrialists aren't making as much as they can with the arguement that I implied that they aren't "enjoying the game". They can make more, and they don't seem to realize that demanding less impact on them from other players means they make less. Making more isk off fewer minerals would indeed make them more isk, because it implies that mineral prices are higher. And yes indeed, higher mineral prices in high sec would make industrialist more money, and benefit null by allowing us the ability to do more of our own manufacturing in null, and LESS IMPORTING of goods from high sec. I can make more importing than building, and it has everything to do with the affordability to manufacture in high. Believe it or not, there's real world models at work here. In effect, high sec is like China, and null is more like the US; from an economic standpoint. Corporations, like the federal reserve, do everything in there power to ensure that manufacturing is not affordable in the US because other corporations make more money by pushing manufacturing into countries were it's cheaper. Null isn't doing though, high sec industry that doesn't want any player impact on them is. In otherwords, instead of the US intentionally inflating the economy, and china intentionally keeping inflation down, what we have is a US entirely subjected to the whims of China's cheaper economy. Sometimes producing things for to cheap, is bad on other peoples economy. In this case Null suffers from things being to cheap in high sec.
Missed it by this |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| much.
It's a game. SOME people play it for fun. You want to make changes to others without regards to how it affects their enjoyment of the game.
Do your Null sec thing and let others play in hi-sec. I understand the economics of what you are saying but it is a game (which should be played for fun, not a second.... err, first job) |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
399
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:45:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dar Manic wrote:
Missed it by this |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| much.
I didn't though. I'm saying this is EVE, a game built entirely around the idea of player impact.
If that's not fun for someone, they shouldn't be playing EVE. CCP shouldn't be creating less player impact because it's "not fun" for any group of people.
EVE doesn't work if there's no impact in high sec, and some people refuse to accept or achnowledge this. The limitted impact ANY PLAYER can have in high sec creates other problems, in other parts of the game.
The only thing CCP should ever do, is to ensure that EVERYONE has the SAME TOOLS to deal with each other. High, low, null, indy, PvEers, PvPers. Everyone should have the ability to deal with peopel that impact them equally.
Ganking is a problem because the person getting ganked has pretty much all control removed from them, tanked or untanked, you can be ganked. Concord isn't player control.
With the bounty system, and the new crimewatch system, everyone will have the ability to deal with those people that are undesireable to them. Whether you be an indy guy that is being stolen from, ganked, or bumped, or if you're a null sec industrialist, on Dec. 4th we'll all have the ability to exact retribution on those people that impact us.
Some people may not find that fun, but they shouldn't be playing EVE anyways. If you don't want to be impacted by other players, you're in the wrong game. |
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 21:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
I dunno what is more entertaining -
Carebear tears or Nullbear tears.
The reason the lower number of PVP deaths in High Sec vs PVP Deaths in Low/Null Sec is simple:
- The kill in High Sec (for the most part) had to be worth the ship loss from Concord and the Sec Status hit.
- In Low Sec, you wait out the gate guns and a take a sec status hit. That sec status hit can be brought back up by running SOE missions.
- In Null sec, you take no penalty.
It's not that bad of a system really. Also, take into account how much of that PVE was new and/or alt accounts going through the career agent missions.
The low number or High Sec PVP Kills doesn't really signify that High Sec needs to be nerfed. It shows that the number of High Sec corps declaring war upon one another is pretty low. Of course, those in an NPC corp cannot be Dec'ed.
Personally, I think that if a player doesn't join a Player Corp after (X) amount of time in an NPC corp, they should be automatically transferred to a division in that that NPC corp that will automatically put that player into FW or RvB. They'll either tough it out or join a player corp....or rage quit and unsub. |
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