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Weiland Taur
Taur Industries Rebel Alliance of New Eden
104
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm wondering what other people's feelings, thoughts are on the upcoming ECM nerf as it applies to Sov warfare. It seems to me in my very limited experience that starting with the Titan nerf and now moving through the ECM nerf coming in Retribution, that CCP is making it harder and harder for small groups to stand up to the blobs of eve.
Thoughts? Is this a gross oversimplification and or over reaction? |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
660
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP has always been pro-blob, so i don't think you're jumping to conclusions. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1984
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
146
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
ECM always was and always will be on the side of whoever bring the most ECM ships... and in my experience the 'blobs' bring them most.
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Weiland Taur
Taur Industries Rebel Alliance of New Eden
104
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect.
Your sarcasm is powerful. It makes you strong.
I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference. My point is that CCP seems to be against force multipliers and or equalizers. I might be completely wrong but it seems as if a trend is developing. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5455
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Weiland Taur wrote:I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference.
while the 47 remaining dudes pop your ECM ships ~*a-áproud belligerent undesirable*~ |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1984
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Posted - 2012.11.03 22:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Weiland Taur wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect. Your sarcasm is powerful. It makes you strong. I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference. If it's roughly even numbers, sure, but you still have most of your gang able to actually do things. Against small gangs, you don't even need to care about what you jam. Just jam anything and you win. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
314
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Posted - 2012.11.03 23:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
QFT |
usrevenge
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
27
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Posted - 2012.11.04 04:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
tbh in my experience ECM is used mostly on logi and the FC in the larger fleet fights, it isn't like you warp onto the field and random drakes number 2-71 are jammed out... ECM would be more broken for the small gangs of 10-20. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
21
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Posted - 2012.11.04 04:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
If I read the numbers right, ECM actually got buffed on the ECM ships didn't it? The Nerf is to the base module, but the ECM ships all got more powerful bonuses which cancel & then some the nerf. So with regard to Falcon etc, Isn't it a buff? |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1697
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Posted - 2012.11.04 04:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:If I read the numbers right, ECM actually got buffed on the ECM ships didn't it? The Nerf is to the base module, but the ECM ships all got more powerful bonuses which cancel & then some the nerf. So with regard to Falcon etc, Isn't it a buff? Well, when the time is right, get a Falcon, try it and report back.
Also, you're a no-skill ECM noob. Surprise! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
522
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Posted - 2012.11.04 04:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:ECM always was and always will be on the side of whoever bring the most ECM ships... and in my experience the 'blobs' bring them most.
Very different than most other offensive modules in EVE, where bringing more of them actually reduces your effectiveness. |
ACE McFACE
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
851
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Posted - 2012.11.04 06:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Weiland Taur wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect. Your sarcasm is powerful. It makes you strong. I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference. My point is that CCP seems to be against force multipliers and or equalizers. I might be completely wrong but it seems as if a trend is developing. Is CCP nerfing all the other forms of electronic warfare too? "No one drove in New York, there was too much traffic." |
Orin Fatch
Invictus Australis Northern Coalition.
0
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Posted - 2012.11.04 07:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Are you ********? lets say 500 vs 100, u say that 100 was going to use ECM to even the odds vs 500? nock out their logi for example? umm hello mate the 500 people are probably using the same tactic with their 400 more, and thus the 100 people are in the same situatuion as before. So its not boosting or nerfing the blob. its just boosting ships its designed to be used on. IE the 1400 abaddons :)
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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
138
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Posted - 2012.11.04 07:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hold up.
I thought ECM was being nerfed because it was to powerful against small gangs.
What page are we on again? Is ECM on the side of the Blob or the Small Gang? Is there some sort of love interest involved? Perhaps ECM is the Mercutio of this tragedy, neither Blob nor Small Gang, but still a victim of circumstance? |
DZeeta
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.11.04 07:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Found this topic on the same page: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=158200&find=unread |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
53
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Posted - 2012.11.04 09:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
As an ECM pilot I already looked into the changes and... they're worthless.
-10% range means nothing. My Falcon can jam at an optimal of somewhere around 62 instead of 68. Racial Sensor Str Skills: Even with this bonus and a full Sensor Str implants, and running ECCM I can still jam a Scimitar with a 23% chance.
So unless the calculations I did were wrong it wont effect much. I'm more annoyed they're trying to once again fiddle the issue instead of sitting and really fixing it. We just have four new mandatory PVP skills in the game now! "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
471
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Posted - 2012.11.04 09:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
ACE McFACE wrote:Weiland Taur wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect. Your sarcasm is powerful. It makes you strong. I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference. My point is that CCP seems to be against force multipliers and or equalizers. I might be completely wrong but it seems as if a trend is developing. Is CCP nerfing all the other forms of electronic warfare too?
actually, damps are not being boosted, just fixed. It has been 4 year since CCP triple-nerfed them, and all they (Tuxford) said about that was "Gallente ships have damp bonuses?". I have never, ever forgot that.
TD's are being made more powerful in TD ships and weaker in the rest, and painters are getting a nudge.
This ECM nerf however was the first time I've seen CCP not applying sledgehammer tactics to nerfing stuff. They will have less range, and, indirectly, permajam less, but it seems sensible and they will still be useable, if the stats posted are anything close to the final shape.
if this was the old way of nerfing things, CCP would had cut their effectiveness and range in half, and made ECM ships have half of their current base EHP, and then boosted their weapon damage bonuses, and add a drone bay for 3 light drones. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Jeff simply
Simply Enterprises
12
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Posted - 2012.11.04 09:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Where is the post that details these changes ? |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
471
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Posted - 2012.11.04 09:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820&find=unread [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
214
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Posted - 2012.11.04 09:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Weiland Taur wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:You're right, ECM totally hurts blobs more than it hurts small gangs. Jamming 3/50 people is totally more harmful than jamming 3/10 people, or 3/3 people.
Ed: also blobs totally don't use ECM themselves to cause the latter effect. Your sarcasm is powerful. It makes you strong. I imagine that if the 3 out of 50 that you jam are logistics it might make a difference. My point is that CCP seems to be against force multipliers and or equalizers. I might be completely wrong but it seems as if a trend is developing.
He's correct though, ECM isn't much of an issue in blob fights and much more of a game changer in smaller engagements, for various reasons.
1 - less targets means better focus of ECM modules on targets, more chance to jam per target 2 - big fleets have more "pilot slots" for ECM/support 2 - if you take out 3/50 (per his example) the effect isn't that amazing, but if you take out 3/10 it suddenly is 3 - blobs tend to be longer range capable than small gangs, which means there's a good chance they can hurt that ECM when it sits at 70km. Smaller gangs tend to be 5-30km fit so they can't really touch the ECM if they're in a fight with the rest of the hostiles
Diminishing ECM means making smaller roaming gangs more powerful. Amat victoria curam. |
Soldarius
TreadStone Standard Tribal Band
296
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Posted - 2012.11.04 10:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
The range nerf is pointless. 10% of base optimal is hardly noticable and won't result in any changes. Example: all 5 Falcon gets around 66km optimal with a normal ECM-centric fit. After changes, your optimal will be 60km. Oh noez! How will Caldari recon pilots ever compensate?
The more important change is the addition of skills to increase the racial sensor strengths. This will increase your sensor strength by 5% per level, or 25% at level 5. Every pvp pilot will have those to 4 if not 5. This won't mean diddly for a frigate. But for cruisers and up, it will be beneficial.
HACs will have a chance to avoid jams rather than be permajammed as they are now. ECCM-fit logistics and BS will be noticeably more resistant to ECM. But remember, RNG is still random.
I imagine the NPC orders for these skills may actually run out on the first day. Also, CCP should seed these skillbooks only in their native empires, ie Caldari only sell Gravimetric, Amarr only sell radar, etc. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
159
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Posted - 2012.11.04 12:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Even if CCP wipes ECM completely from the game, the usual suspects will go on crying about ECM.
vOv
_______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.-á |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
153
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Posted - 2012.11.04 17:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:ECM always was and always will be on the side of whoever bring the most ECM ships... and in my experience the 'blobs' bring them most.
Very different than most other offensive modules in EVE, where bringing more of them actually reduces your effectiveness.
Don't be daft, people are defending ECM by saying it is what keeps blobs from totally decimating small gangs. Which is complete bullshit.
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Weiland Taur
Taur Industries Rebel Alliance of New Eden
104
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Posted - 2012.11.04 17:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Seems I should have been clearer about what I considered a blob. Reading responses I think I am mainly talking large gang vs. smaller gang conflicts. I've learned some stuff however, thanks for the educational responses. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
321
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Posted - 2012.11.04 17:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:if this was the old way of nerfing things, CCP would had cut their effectiveness and range in half, and made ECM ships have half of their current base EHP, and then boosted their weapon damage bonuses, and add a drone bay for 3 light drones.
Oh, god this made me laugh out loud and spill my drink. Totally true. Especially the addition of a drone bay and 3 light drones.
Still, I feel the nerf isn't really substantial enough to make a difference. Sometimes you DO need a sledgehammer. Just gotta use the right tool for the right job. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
472
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Posted - 2012.11.04 21:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Grimpak wrote:if this was the old way of nerfing things, CCP would had cut their effectiveness and range in half, and made ECM ships have half of their current base EHP, and then boosted their weapon damage bonuses, and add a drone bay for 3 light drones. Oh, god this made me laugh out loud and spill my drink. Totally true. Especially the addition of a drone bay and 3 light drones. Still, I feel the nerf isn't really substantial enough to make a difference. Sometimes you DO need a sledgehammer. Just gotta use the right tool for the right job. the problem doesn't lie there.
it's just that ECM is always on a razor's edge, as far as balance goes. you can't axe it or else it becomes useless, and you cant just nudge it, since it will remain the same.
tbh ECM in it's whole, does what it says in the box: total denial. it works like that and it is balanced on that.
the "total denial" concept however is what is unbalanced, and, unfortunately, the amount of work that is needed to pour on the ECM concept to make it "balanced" might be too much for near zero benefit, or making it totally useless. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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