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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.16 11:51:00 -
[1]
In the last few months, damage output has been dramatically increased. Players realized that it is very easy to win a fight with a so called ôgankfittingö. Nobody fits a tank setup because they are useless against a gankship and are useless in fleets.
The only way to counter this is with EW. But this is now removed with the latest patch. Fights I see now donÆt evolve EW at all, itÆs pure numbers and dmg mods that counts. Instand lock and shoot, not much of a challenge there. Now this all was slighty acceptable by me if fights lasted longer then 30seconds.
I want to know. Do you acknowledge this crazy gank era? are you proceeding with just upping the damage output from ships or actually thinking about to change it to a point where tactics and strategy can be used again?
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.04.16 11:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Bad''Boy on 16/04/2005 12:03:16
Originally by: Axel In the last few months, damage output has been dramatically increased. Players realized that it is very easy to win a fight with a so called ôgankfittingö. Nobody fits a tank setup because they are useless against a gankship and are useless in fleets.
The only way to counter this is with EW. But this is now removed with the latest patch. Fights I see now donÆt evolve EW at all, itÆs pure numbers and dmg mods that counts. Instand lock and shoot, not much of a challenge there. Now this all was slighty acceptable by me if fights lasted longer then 30seconds.
I want to know. Do you acknowledge this crazy gank era? are you proceeding with just upping the damage output from ships or actually thinking about to change it to a point where tactics and strategy can be used again?
dude EW works better now vs gankas(with good EW skills that is)
but yes seems like ganking is taking over this game...not fun at all...
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.16 12:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Axel on 16/04/2005 12:03:49
Originally by: Bad'Boy
dude EW works better now vs gankas(with good EW skills that is)
No, because before the last patch you had a risk that you enemy had back-ups fitted and you don't have enough strength to jamm him. Now it's that plus that even if the jamming strength enough theres a chance that it will fail.
But i'm not talking here only about the EW. It's about the gank era playstyle.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.04.16 12:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Axel Edited by: Axel on 16/04/2005 12:03:49
Originally by: Bad'Boy
dude EW works better now vs gankas(with good EW skills that is)
No, because before the last patch you had a risk that you enemy had back-ups fitted and you don't have enough strength to jamm him. Now it's that plus that even if the jamming strength enough theres a chance that it will fail.
But i'm not talking here only about the EW. It's about the gank era playstyle.
yea ic where you'r going with it....and yes all this ganking'r ***...
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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DayVV4lkEr
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Posted - 2005.04.16 13:59:00 -
[5]
You will see more tanks when the tanking-stuff tech II gets common.
Large armour Repairer II or XLarge Shield Booster II are out for 1 week and cap relays tech II didn't arrive yet (needed for armour tank) so u just have to wait :)
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Axel on 16/04/2005 14:09:13
Originally by: DayVV4lkEr You will see more tanks when the tanking-stuff tech II gets common.
Large armour Repairer II or XLarge Shield Booster II are out for 1 week and cap relays tech II didn't arrive yet (needed for armour tank) so u just have to wait :)
Yes it could help in 1vs1. But as soon you are in a small group. Your fancy tank won't help you or the team.
As soon as tech2 ammo or spec ammo comes out, the dmg output is again been increased... :(
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:09:00 -
[7]
Rep II is probaply gonna end up costing as much as half the battleship itself with the stupid blueprint system...
There just has to be more HP on ships and armorplates. Shift the focuss from repairing the damage faster then it comes in to surviving damage for a good amount of time anyways, then setups that take a long time to start dealing damage will have a good chance against the lightly armored gankships too...
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DEVILSENIGMA
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:15:00 -
[8]
Well there's that megapulse nerf now 0_o ~
[My Blog] | [Roving Guns Kill List] |
Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Axel on 16/04/2005 14:19:56
Originally by: DEVILSENIGMA Well there's that megapulse nerf now 0_o
Pulses are not nerfed, they are corrected in range. The damage output is still insane. 1000+ dps from a tech2 geddon still hurts.
Together with autocannons, they are now the best close range guns in the game. ( ooh thats my oppinion btw )
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F4ze
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:22:00 -
[10]
I think the problem is this:
Everybody can train and fit for very high damage output. Not everybody can afford the modules to tank the kind of damage everybody can put out.
The modules to tank the damage output nowadays exist, but they are rare and expensive.
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NOVAStrikes
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:32:00 -
[11]
ye i agree far to much gankage in Eve these days, far to many bloody geddons flying around i trust CCP to come round to makin a few changes in the near future, maybe fights that will last 3 seconds ay
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:37:00 -
[12]
It's not only about 1 ship that can gank. All ships can when packed with dmg mods.
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Rexy
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Posted - 2005.04.16 14:40:00 -
[13]
we should all fly typhoons, gank setup doesnt really work on that one
All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :) |
Weston McArthur
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:09:00 -
[14]
Welcome to last month.
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Minyon
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:25:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Minyon on 16/04/2005 15:25:31 Your right tanking is falling behind ganking so tanking should be boosted to keep up
Tech2 tanking needs to get better as tech2 guns are 20% better than tech1 guns, so tech2 hardners should be 20% better than tech1 hardners. They should be 60% not 52.5% like they are now and officer stuff should be better still.
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prsr
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:29:00 -
[16]
Tank setups have always been useless in fleets, you can't hope to tank damage from multiple turret BS's anyway. This has always been the same, nothing new (well except the 99% resistance across the board Scorps that were possible for a while).
Concerning gank setups in smaller skirmishes, a person with a true gank setup has 0 defenses... I'd say thats balanced no?
Also, EW changes have been out for less then a week, I'd wait a month at least to see how it's working out before claiming it's any worse or better.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:38:00 -
[17]
The gankers will loose their ships. The pendulum will swing. Once their ships are lost (or 2 or 3) - they will get tired of replacing them and go for a new "tactic". It was not 6 month ago when all forms of long range combat (save fleet perhaps) where deemed as gh4y - and close range ruled the fields...
Weirda think that the HP increase was one of CCPs answers to 'extreme' fittings - but ppl panned it pretty hard. Curious to see if/when that will get revived. -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Grut
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:51:00 -
[18]
The problem with gank vs tank is that gank is always gonna win above a certain threshold. Only the tank mods on a targeted ship are working whereas all the damage mods on a fleet are working everytime they light someone up. I'd like to see some AoE damage reduction.... ie hs mod giving +50% resists to everything within a 5km range for an ungodly amount of fitting/cap. That way hp regeneration actually makes a difference and scrambling a target actually means something rather then the current 1 salvo it so it cant warp out. Mostly harmless |
Antic
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Posted - 2005.04.16 15:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Antic on 16/04/2005 16:14:09
i agree. This ganktastik gameplay is far from fun. We need more tactics put into EVE other than the "I win!" button that ganking is. And we need more time to apply tactics. 10 second combat isnt enough.
Tanking will always be inferior as it works now. When you run out of cap on a tank you die. When you run out of cap on weapons you dont. (right, you dont run out of cap on weapons with how they work today so its moot anyway) so maximum damage and an advantage in numbers concentrating fire at 1 ship at a time can never be tanked. This isnt made better by the stacking of damage mods increasing damage even more.
Also shield tanking is way inferior to armor tanking. This will be especialy evident when the tech 2 cap relays or tech 2 armor hardeners are released. Also not many uses tech 2 tanking equipment in pvp cus its too expensive to loose. Tech 2 weapons costs hardly anything in comparison. Tanks really require tech 2 cap recharge moduls of different type and they cost an arm and leg too. The new shield boost and armor rep modules will change nothing.
So theres lots of inbalances out there that all contribute to combat in eve being all about damage and gank with no other option.
Edit: What would be nice for tactics were if combat started at extreme range. Meaning that as soon as fleets etc aproached achother they arent dropped ontop of eachother. If theres time for positioning and movement outside of sniper range then more tactics can be applied. So eves gateCentric combat isnt very good for this. And as eve isnt free flight really but instead warp to gate. warp to gate. warp to gate its difficult to make this work.
Maybe increase jump in distances to extremes up to 500 or 600kms? and implement many different jump in points in a sphered area so no group can be dropped out of war ontop of the other but instead are dropped atelast 500 to 600 km away. Would add even more duration to fights.
Also adding a "jump to coordinates" thing on the system map/scanner, with actual accuracy of exiting jump depending on astrogation skill and ship specs, would make combat much more interesting. Thats why PVP is so much fun in Darkspace for example, cus you can jump wherever you want on the system map and thus theres a lot of more tactics to combat. Detection ranges, warpdrive interdiction, the ships jump range etc. It would make scouting with frigs or intys, and using probes a very interesting thing indeed. Then the inbalances we are discussing now would not mean as much because they can always be defeated with tactics due to the added freedom.
Also this would bring real piracy back into the game. Set up a pirate camp inbetween a well traveled route in a system, be it between 2 gates or a gate and a station or hte like, then bring a jumpdrive interdictor and ships jumping that lane get dropped out of jump at your camp free to be ransomed, killed or whatever. This would be much more fair than gate camping because due to there being a real positilibty for real astrogation, meaning you can set a waypoint on the system map to jump to, you can actualy navitage alternative routes to gates and avoid a pirate camp if one is set up at the route, and not just¦take the shortest straight route. this of course dosnt mean you will run into people dictoring your jump at other routes too but atelast people have a choise of wich route they plotted, and thus if they get pirated they can not whine that it was "unfair".
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Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2005.04.16 16:47:00 -
[20]
well there is tactics. to take care of the Dmg mod packers" yes i use some to "
ECM ... DAmpneers turret tracking thingy... etc... remote sheild boost remote armor boost..
Centuria > whoot? Centuria > you stalking me? :) -- Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL -- http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
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Corsair Thunder
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Posted - 2005.04.16 18:05:00 -
[21]
I can see what you getting at, but at times, gank is the only way to finish a fight. Take say the HAC's their tanking is incredible, if you have 2 HAC's fighting eachother, they'll keep doing it till they grow beards. Ok, you can use NOS but some ships can survive nos's. I suppose gank setups are the way in fleet battles, but they shouldnt belong in smaller skirmishes. -----------------------------------------------
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Lucas Vicenzo
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Posted - 2005.04.16 18:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Axel In the last few months, damage output has been dramatically increased. Players realized that it is very easy to win a fight with a so called ôgankfittingö. Nobody fits a tank setup because they are useless against a gankship and are useless in fleets.
The only way to counter this is with EW. But this is now removed with the latest patch. Fights I see now donÆt evolve EW at all, itÆs pure numbers and dmg mods that counts. Instand lock and shoot, not much of a challenge there. Now this all was slighty acceptable by me if fights lasted longer then 30seconds.
I want to know. Do you acknowledge this crazy gank era? are you proceeding with just upping the damage output from ships or actually thinking about to change it to a point where tactics and strategy can be used again?
The reason for the ganking method is that, when a gang reaches 5+ it doesnt matter how skilled you are, or what your tanking setup is, 5 people focusing fire on you, and your dead. So then whats the point in fitting a tank? There isnt one.
How can you change this though? Simply put, I dont think you can.
Damage Mods 4 teh w1n!
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2005.04.16 19:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
dude EW works better now vs gankas(with good EW skills that is)
but yes seems like ganking is taking over this game...not fun at all...
It'd be a little better if the jammer cap requirements were toned down 10%. Even with maximize cap skills and EW lvl 4 these things eat a tad too much cap to be used decently.
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Nervar
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Posted - 2005.04.16 20:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Axel
CCP, i want an answer
Well your not gonna get one Atleast not one that makes sence -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.04.17 07:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nervar
Well your not gonna get one Atleast not one that makes sence
So true why are we even paying with no customer feedback
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James Draekn
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Posted - 2005.04.17 11:21:00 -
[26]
Easy way to make combat last longer. Increase all the hitpoints on all ships TIMES 10. Battles will last longer and tactics can then be employed. But the gatecampers in 0.0 will complain because they can't wipeout that hauler in one shot.
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Techyon
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Posted - 2005.04.17 12:40:00 -
[27]
There ARE tactics for fleet battles, focus fire for example, very effective and used almost in every fleet battle, especially at long ranges. This is tactic that requires a team to work toghether, and to execute right, it does require discipline etc.
Also There are some very fun counter measures against ganks in fleet setup, particulary involving Covert Op ships Although not realistic in larger fleet battles, very useful in smaller skirmishes and smaller fleet battles.
Without going to extreme measures it's possible to setup a dedicated tank setup which will tank or nearly ( hold out long enough for the ganking ship to be destroyed )tank a gank setup ( with perhaps the exception of a gank setup tempest or raven ). This is possible by using only mediocre named modules. It does require you to focus your entire setup to tanking, and it thus mean your guns will do less dmg because of no dmg mods. Then again the gank pilot sacrifices all defence and thus is extremely vulnerable to attack.
Tanking should be boosted a bit, it'll prolong battles and make it bit more interesting. Perhaps introducing a new skill here is a good idea, such as the following :
- A skill that enhances the % hardened by hardeners, for example 2 % per lvl.
- Tank module( armor rep/shield booster ) efficieny, which boosts the repaired amount by something like 3-5 % per lvl
imo this should make tanking a lot more useful. ------ ARIN Recruiter
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.04.17 12:45:00 -
[28]
theres no skill or tactics behind focused fire. Just call a target on teamspeak or whatever your fleet uses and then hit the gank "I win" button. With that amount of damage output it dosnt matter when you fire target will die anyway. So no timing involved.
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Griseus
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Posted - 2005.04.17 12:47:00 -
[29]
Why do you think tanking is not effective ?? You only cannot tank against ALL kind of weapons ... 1 vs 1 = Tank wins 1 vs 2 = 50/50 depends on your config and skills of both sides 1 vs 3+ = no chance BUT - you know the type of ships / damage you have to hold, and tank in that kind of resistances. I saw Raven tanked that way ... He holded damage about minute against 5-6 Gankageddons. So this is just numbers, and ability to play in team. You never able to repair all damage from gankerz yourself, so use remote repairers.
------------------------- NPC Hunter |
Vathar
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Posted - 2005.04.17 12:58:00 -
[30]
Remote repairers mean ships supporting you, and what prevents the enemy from shooting supporters before taking down the tank? ____________
Space Shaman
Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !! |
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