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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Been playing for about 2 weeks now, and I've made it known on these forums how I feel about the ridiculousness in how complicated it is for new players to get into active corporations.
For Instance I'm currently waiting (almost 2 weeks now) for an application to be accepted for a corp in a large Alliance.
I understand some of you angry vets want to "weed out the weak", "keep out the instant gratification people", "I want to make EVE more inaccessible in order to feel like a special snowflake", etc.
You need to realize two things:
1) EVE will not continue much further without growth. 2) EVE cannot grow without new people 3) Most new people come from MMOs that don't require such BS just to play with other people.
As I've stated before,I come from WoW. One of the best things about WoW IMHO was how easy it was for people to get involved and, I don't know, play an MMO like an MMO. You run an instance, and have a great time and say "Hey, you guys are cool. Can I join your guild?" or "Hey, you're a great Tank /Healer/DPS, you need a guild bro?". Voila. You're in a guild with cool folks, having fun killing stuff. Make some friends, all is well.
Here it's damn near the total opposite. Outside of FW, there's no way for new players to get involved in multiplayer activities, and you can't really enjoy FW because you have no idea wth you're doing as a brand new player.
Bottom line, the average new player does NOT have the patience to sit through those boring and EXTREMELY insufficient tutorials, wait 2 weeks to get into a corporation or download E-UNI classes and listen to them for hours on end to learn the game (I'm a truck driver, I can do this).
CCP, flat-out needs to take a more proactive approach to retaining new people; and it starts with training. I love E-UNI to death and I appreciate their contributions to the game but their application process is ridiculous. RvB is great, but let's be honest, a 5 day old player isn't learning PVP in RvB. They're simply being constantly blown up by T2 fitted veterans and providing killmails. I was in RvB for about 3 days on my main and got tired of it. Join fleet, go to where they are and get blown up. No training at all, which is fine. My issue is how many vets front RvB as a training corporation when it clearly is not. It's a place for freelance no holds barred pvp, NOT training...PRACTICE perhaps, but not training. Training is the process of learning. Practice is the process of applying what you have learned in the hopes of honing your skills.
I simply suggest CCP establish its own training corporation. The small investment you make into this will pan out given the rise in retention rates, I promise you. It should be a mix of E-UNI and RvB. Give lectures (another complaint I have of E-UNI is that while I appreciate their efforts, many of their lectures are given by people with very thick accents and I can't understand what they're saying). Getting a few American players to record some lectures in exchange for ISK or PLEX doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Also establishing a CENTRALIZED source of information would help. a 1-stop shop for CORRECT (keyword here) would be nice, because when we noobs ask question and vets are giving us 20 different websites with 20 different perspectives its very confusing.
In conclusion I am not asking for things to be made easier. I am asking for information and training to be made more accessible. The noob will still have to read, practice and take the initiative in other ways, but there is a more solid foundation for them to stand on when they start, thus increasing the likelihood of them staying. Bottom line most noobs aren't like me. In fact the only reason I'M still here is because EvE is somewhat fun and very forgiving to a truckers' schedule. Being able to train offline is great for me. However for someone who doesn't really need that perk, they will need another reason to stay.
Moe Doobie, Max Doobie's Black sista from anotha mista. |
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Heeeeey Moe |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heeeey Max |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
363
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
We have tossed around ideas like this recently. Nothing beyond going "Wouldn't it be interesting if..." though. CCP Eterne | Community Representative
@CCP_Eterne |
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Karn Dulake
Sad Flutes
995
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is much faggotry in large alliance with many people forgetting that they are playing a computer game and somehow think that they are some kind of elite. and this has been touched on many times.
Quote:many of their lectures are given by people with very thick accents and I can't understand what they're saying). Getting a few American players to record some lectures in exchange for ISK or PLEX doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
This is because all the best players are Europeans and Russians. And although Americans do try hard they are not of this callibre and would have to learn a lecture rote and that would sound pretty terrible.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
148
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Few small details: sandbox, emergent gameplay, player created content.
If you don't see connection get back to WoW. And I say it with all kindness and respect. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
624
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:We have tossed around ideas like this recently. Nothing beyond going "Wouldn't it be interesting if..." though.
Until EVE University collapses I see now value in a CCP corp. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
446
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote:
For Instance I'm currently waiting (almost 2 weeks now) for an application to be accepted for a corp in a large Alliance.
You obviously didnt pay your 500mil isk fee.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:We have tossed around ideas like this recently. Nothing beyond going "Wouldn't it be interesting if..." though.
Dude I'm TELLING you it WILL RETAIN NOOBS.
We join your training corp, we meet other noobs, make connections, PLUS, player owned corps know for a FACT we know how to fly when we graduate and they get quality recruits. Everyone wins here.
Plus on top of THAT, it helps with the spy problem. A Toon that's been in the Concord Multinational Training Academy (just an idea) for 2 months (req time for graduation) is a lot less likely to be a spy alt. |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Few small details: sandbox, emergent gameplay, player created content.
If you don't see connection get back to WoW. And I say it with all kindness and respect.
Then why are there already non player corporations?
Given this fact, how would simply adding a training NPC corp be any different?
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1018
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Given that CCP has no idea how their game actually works, I don't think this would be a good idea. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
779
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eve Uni - The in game pc run training corp.
The thing is, the corp isn't the important bit. It's the people in the corp. Because a corp entirely of newbies is in a somewhat painful place. It needs a leavening of experienced players to actually answer the questions.
So a CCP run corp would require CCP to hire staff to run it. Which is probably not viable. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:There is much faggotry in large alliance with many people forgetting that they are playing a computer game and somehow think that they are some kind of elite. and this has been touched on many times. Quote:many of their lectures are given by people with very thick accents and I can't understand what they're saying). Getting a few American players to record some lectures in exchange for ISK or PLEX doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. This is because all the best players are Europeans and Russians. And although Americans do try hard they are not of this callibre and would have to learn a lecture rote and that would sound pretty terrible.
At least we have genetically modified food.
Damn European hippies...
OUR CHICKENS HAVE 3 HEADS!! THREE!! |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Given that CCP has no idea how their game actually works, I don't think this would be a good idea.
Dayum...
That's cold blooded... |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
636
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Few small details: sandbox, emergent gameplay, player created content.
If you don't see connection get back to WoW. And I say it with all kindness and respect. Then why are there already non player corporations? Given this fact, how would simply adding a training NPC corp be any different?
It's not up to CCP to train you how to fly a ship and be good at the game.
It is up to you, ultimately to do that, and if they are into that sort of thing, for other people to help you. Myself? I love noobs. I actively push for my RP-PvP corp to adopt noobs. Noobs are great and beautiful.
Frankly I wouldn't trust CCP to have trained you correctly. If you want better training? Find a corp willing to take you in and put the work and investment into making you awesome in whatever it is you do. |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Eve Uni - The in game pc run training corp.
The thing is, the corp isn't the important bit. It's the people in the corp. Because a corp entirely of newbies is in a somewhat painful place. It needs a leavening of experienced players to actually answer the questions.
So a CCP run corp would require CCP to hire staff to run it. Which is probably not viable.
Given the retention rate increase, sure it would. Plus like I said they could offer free gametime to them, plex, isk, etc. Even if they pay RL money, the trade off in growth, exposure and retention would far outweigh the costs.
Corporations IRL pay hundreds of millions in ad expenses to MAKE THEIR PRODUCT MORE ACCESSIBLE TO POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS. Same here.
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
148
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Few small details: sandbox, emergent gameplay, player created content.
If you don't see connection get back to WoW. And I say it with all kindness and respect. Then why are there already non player corporations? Given this fact, how would simply adding a training NPC corp be any different?
Ah, you see NPC wouldn't be training, it would be just NPC. Just like those we already have. Yet for some reason you want to get into player corp. Why is that? NPC corp chats are very educational, too. And amuzing. And pants-on-the-head wrong most of a time. But NPC corps exists solely because charcter cannot be outside a corp. And let's pretend we don't see anything wrong with half of hisec being in those corps forever. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.11.13 18:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Moe Doobie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Few small details: sandbox, emergent gameplay, player created content.
If you don't see connection get back to WoW. And I say it with all kindness and respect. Then why are there already non player corporations? Given this fact, how would simply adding a training NPC corp be any different? It's not up to CCP to train you how to fly a ship and be good at the game. It is up to you, ultimately to do that, and if they are into that sort of thing, for other people to help you. Myself? I love noobs. I actively push for my RP-PvP corp to adopt noobs. Noobs are great and beautiful. Frankly I wouldn't trust CCP to have trained you correctly. If you want better training? Find a corp willing to take you in and put the work and investment into making you awesome in whatever it is you do.
CCP would benefit the most from us being trained.
People who actually know how to play EvE can appreciate it and they will stay. People leave eve, not because it's boring. It's because it's so overwhelming and difficult to learn and play with others first starting out that they never really get a chance to appreciate what it has to offer.
And plus they already try to train in having tutorials. I'm simply asking them to make it more efficient.
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
31
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote: As I've stated before,I come from WoW. One of the best things about WoW IMHO was how easy it was for people to get involved and, I don't know, play an MMO like an MMO. You run an instance, and have a great time and say "Hey, you guys are cool. Can I join your guild?" or "Hey, you're a great Tank /Healer/DPS, you need a guild bro?". Voila. You're in a guild with cool folks, having fun killing stuff. Make some friends, all is well.
Here it's damn near the total opposite. Outside of FW, there's no way for new players to get involved in multiplayer activities, and you can't really enjoy FW because you have no idea wth you're doing as a brand new player.
Lol WoW. Came from there myself late in 2010.
You don't get "easily" into anything in WoW. At least not the little worth doing thats left in that game. You can ofc collect pets in the hundreds, if you're inclined to do so. World of Petcraft...
For the rest: You have to pass tons of checks to be accepted and "new" players have just as hard a time getting into either decent PvP teams or heroic raids. And don't tell me anything about small instances. Unnerfed heroic shattered halls back in early 2007 was one of the last you really could have fun in.
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Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
547
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
There is an entire subforum dedicated to finding player corporations. There are multiple in-game channels for finding corporations depending on primary language. New corporations that want like-minded new players pop up daily. All you need to do is reach out and be pro-active instead of waiting for that "WTB DPS/Tank for Raid/PvE/RP guilde~" post. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
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Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Moe Doobie wrote: As I've stated before,I come from WoW. One of the best things about WoW IMHO was how easy it was for people to get involved and, I don't know, play an MMO like an MMO. You run an instance, and have a great time and say "Hey, you guys are cool. Can I join your guild?" or "Hey, you're a great Tank /Healer/DPS, you need a guild bro?". Voila. You're in a guild with cool folks, having fun killing stuff. Make some friends, all is well.
Here it's damn near the total opposite. Outside of FW, there's no way for new players to get involved in multiplayer activities, and you can't really enjoy FW because you have no idea wth you're doing as a brand new player.
Lol WoW. Came from there myself late in 2010. You don't get "easily" into anything in WoW. At least not the little worth doing thats left in that game. You can ofc collect pets in the hundreds, if you're inclined to do so. World of Petcraft... For the rest: You have to pass tons of checks to be accepted and "new" players have just as hard a time getting into either decent PvP teams or heroic raids. And don't tell me anything about small instances. Unnerfed heroic shattered halls back in early 2007 was one of the last you really could have fun in.
Well yeah the guilds full of neckbeards who were in international competitions and crap yeah, they had a complex recruitment process, mainly because money was on the line, or prestige.
However just normal everyday social guilds, no. To me those were the best guilds. The Raid Leader wouldn't have a stroke on mic every time a heal was missed or Bloodlust wasn't popped in time. |
Silver Plated
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think this is a great idea. It took me 3 tries over the course of... Uhh, four years... To get into Eve because of the learning cliff. I got lucky and stumbled into a corp with people willing to help (see: not jerks) and that is why I have been playing and paying consistently for 2 years now.
However, I am not sure about CCP running it. There are not only issues with who does the teaching but problems with CCP potentially appearing to endorse certain entities over others. Imagine if, lets say, the alliance Barbie's Dream Spaceship (please tell me this doesn't actually exist) provided all of the lecturers and suddenly started winning their Sov wars in quick succession. I don't think CCP will have had anything to do with it but there is way too much tin foil hattery in Eve. Someone, somewhere, is going to start calling Dev interference without any proof. It would just add an extra layer of contention between the players and CCP which I do not think would benefit the community.
That being said I really really join you in my intense hatred of how seriously corps take their application processes. I get it. AXOXERS and Corp theft happens but frankly I think it is less of a risk than they think. As for spies I don't think they are ever successfully kept out. There are ways to arrange assets to stop corp theft and as for AWOXERS, well, I think providing an SRP for that purpose would be viable as long as the person isn't flying a 70bil Nightmare.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent. I do that sometimes. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1018
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Given that CCP has no idea how their game actually works, I don't think this would be a good idea. Dayum... That's cold blooded...
Sometimes the truth is. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lykouleon wrote:There is an entire subforum dedicated to finding player corporations. There are multiple in-game channels for finding corporations depending on primary language. New corporations that want like-minded new players pop up daily. All you need to do is reach out and be pro-active instead of waiting for that "WTB DPS/Tank for Raid/PvE/RP guilde~" post.
Most of the ones I see req a minimum amount of skill points,and the ones that don't just started and have like 3 people, thus seriously reducing the chance that A) They will actually take the time to train and B) Will have member on and active when you are online. There is a reason why noobs target larger guilds/corporations. It's because the larger the group the more likely others will be on to do things when we are. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
656
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Have you tried the recruitment channel? There are recruiters in there that will literally take anybody. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Moe Doobie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Have you tried the recruitment channel? There are recruiters in there that will literally take anybody.
Right....because they just want to swell their numbers. They have no intention whatsoever of actually taking noobs along on OPs and training them |
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CCP Falcon
729
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pulled a couple of offensive posts.
Keep your language within the forum rules please.
CCP Falcon -á-á||-á-áEVE Community Team -á|| -á-áEVE Illuminati -á || -á-á@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents
-á-- Disciple Of The Delicious Tea -- |
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
The difference between WoW and EVE is the PVP nature.
The big alliances keep out newplayers, not to "weed out the weak" or "keep out the instant gatification peeps". They keep out the new toons because they are trying to keep out the alt spies, the corp griefers, the thieves and scammers.
There are PLENTY of corporations that are new player friendly. These corporations fight one another trying to attract the best, REAL new players, while doing their best to keep out the fake new players that are really spies, thieves, griefers and enemy alts.
I know there is one HUGE change CCP could make that would make me a lot more "new player friendly". A corp setting that allows me to set whether corp mates are allowed to shoot each other without CONCORD intervention.
I can lock down my billions of ISK worth of BPOs and deny them the ability to mess with the corp's POSes, but I can't stop corp griefers from showing up in my mission space with mass DPS and out of corp logistics, and blowing up my billion+ ISK missioning boat.
Oh, and I guess a change to the war dec mechanics. Right now you have to be aware that the new player may actually just be an alt that is gathering intel for his main corp to war dec you.
In short, new players are kept out because of the damage they can do.
I would hate to see CCP create a CCP run corp for all these new players to join. I'd much rather see them tweak some of the game mechanics that discourage people from recruiting new toons.
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
636
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote:
CCP would benefit the most from us being trained.
People who actually know how to play EvE can appreciate it and they will stay. People leave eve, not because it's boring. It's because it's so overwhelming and difficult to learn and play with others first starting out that they never really get a chance to appreciate what it has to offer.
And plus they already try to train in having tutorials. I'm simply asking them to make it more efficient.
Better tutorials? Sure. But a full training corp?
No.
CCP does not have unlimited manpower. Normally, in this situation, you would look into crowdsourcing this sort of thing. They don't even have to, because player corporations are already doing this, and for free.
One of the biggest reasons why I like it when my corp adopts noobs is that we see it as making an investment. We take you under our wing. We teach you how to do things. We make an effort to make you good, and we do this because we want you to hang around and be awesome WITH us.
CCP wouldn't have this sort of drive. Besides, unless there was the potential for failure, there is no drive on YOUR part to actually get any better. Join a player corp. Let the players how to teach you this game. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2915
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Posted - 2012.11.13 19:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Moe Doobie wrote: Been playing for about 2 weeks now, and I've made it known on these forums how I feel about the ridiculousness in how complicated it is for new players to get into active corporations.
*snipped*
So the problem is the difficulty of getting in to an active corp as a new player.
Moe Doobie wrote:You need to realize two things:
1) EVE will not continue much further without growth. 2) EVE cannot grow without new people 3) Most new people come from MMOs that don't require such BS just to play with other people.
That's three things not two. The first two are also blatantly obvious while the third is at best loosely connected to them. Growth and new people can be gained without number 3, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to look in to ways to improve on that.
Moe Doobie wrote:In other MMOs it's easy to join guilds. In EVE it's the opposite for new players.
There is a good reason for the difference. In WoW you can afford to include anyone. In EVE it's detrimental to your corporation. Rules of WoW don't allow sandbox gameplay, so any damage done by other players will get refunded by the GMs and it won't harm the game, since it's not a player driven universe. Here you can't do that.
Moe Doobie wrote:Bottom line, the average new player does NOT have the patience to sit through those boring and EXTREMELY insufficient tutorials, wait 2 weeks to get into a corporation or download E-UNI classes and listen to them for hours on end to learn the game (I'm a truck driver, I can do this).
I've played the new tutorials and they're pretty good actually and don't take too long to complete. They'll get you going in the game and you can learn the rest as you play. Someone who doesn't have the patience to play through the basic tutorials is unlikely to stick around anyway and is a serious burden to the players in a player corp.
Moe Doobie wrote:CCP, flat-out needs to take a more proactive approach to retaining new people; and it starts with training. I love E-UNI to death and I appreciate their contributions to the game but their application process is ridiculous. RvB is great, but let's be honest, a 5 day old player isn't learning PVP in RvB. They're simply being constantly blown up by T2 fitted veterans and providing killmails. I was in RvB for about 3 days on my main and got tired of it. Join fleet, go to where they are and get blown up. No training at all, which is fine. My issue is how many vets front RvB as a training corporation when it clearly is not. It's a place for freelance no holds barred pvp, NOT training...PRACTICE perhaps, but not training. Training is the process of learning. Practice is the process of applying what you have learned in the hopes of honing your skills.
I simply suggest CCP establish its own training corporation. The small investment you make into this will pan out given the rise in retention rates, I promise you. It should be a mix of E-UNI and RvB. Give lectures (another complaint I have of E-UNI is that while I appreciate their efforts, many of their lectures are given by people with very thick accents and I can't understand what they're saying). Getting a few American players to record some lectures in exchange for ISK or PLEX doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Also establishing a CENTRALIZED source of information would help. a 1-stop shop for CORRECT (keyword here) would be nice, because when we noobs ask question and vets are giving us 20 different websites with 20 different perspectives its very confusing.
In conclusion I am not asking for things to be made easier. I am asking for information and training to be made more accessible. *snipped rambling*
How would this corp work exactly? Is it a player corp or an NPC corp? A player corp will have the same issues as real player corps and it will be used to grief new players. A NPC corp would have protection from this, but it's not going to be an active corp. It's going to be an active chat channel with little to no multiplayer just like current starter corps.
I'm also interested in hearing who would run all this. Currently players take a lot of their own time to make things like this work, so are you going to give players tools to manage this new corp or do you expect CCP to do it? Naturally a player run entity will be just like the ones we have now and a CCP run entity will require some people to be paid to play the game full time in order to manage it. If you have views on how it should would, I'd like to hear them from you, instead of having to assume things.
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