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Sethimothy
Red Star Trading Corporation Redrum Fleet
2
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Posted - 2012.11.20 18:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Inventing is something I've always been interested in. I have a significant amount of SP invested in BPO researching and manufacturing, but a very bare minimum invested in Invention and it's something that I've found to be obtuse. It's something that, for lack of a better term, I've clearly done WRONG, when I've bothered to do it at all.
So today I'm going to bring up a specific example, and bring up my questions, to make my questions a little easier to make sense of and to perhaps answer the questions of others. It shows my assumptions of things, WHICH MAY BE FAULTY, so please feel free to correct as needed.
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Let's say I want to use Invention on Antimatter Charge S Blueprints. We know that this will create, upon success, a BPC for Void S (a type of ammunition used in T2 Railguns.)
We know we need skills. All invention requires three skills, and this one needs:
Electromagnetic Physics Gallente Encryption Methods Plasma Physics
Each level in these skills gives a +1% chance to not failing horribly, and since this ammunition isn't a ship it gets the greatest base chance to succeed, at 40%. With all three of these at level one (a silly idea, as each can be trained to three in less than a day each) there is a 43% chance that a BPC for Void S will be created. Based on skills alone, the best we can hope for is a base 55% increase based on all skills at 55%.
For the sake of this invention, we are forsaking Decryptors, because they are expensive and we're just making ammo. We can get a bonus percent by using an item for reference. In this case, having some Void S ammo, a tech 2 item, would give about a 1% bonus. I'm not sure if a single piece of ammo is needed, or a full run of 100.
Next, we need three items:
Datacore - Electromagnetic Physics Datacore - Plasma Physics Incognito Data Interface
The Datacores can be bought from the market, or won through R&D points from select agents (hell if i Know which ones though.) The Incognito Data Interface is made from a BPO I have never seen, and can't find solid evidence of where exists; purchasing it off the market premade makes the whole thing rather unprofitable. All three of these are consumed whether or not the Invention is successful.
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That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how. Thus, the example provided. I want to reiterate, it is shared as A FLAWED EXAMPLE, and I know it's wrong; the issue is, I don't entirely understand why and how and could use your assistance in regards to this. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
423
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Posted - 2012.11.20 18:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
The data interface isn't consumed on invention. The bps can be found in data exploration sites but it's just easier to buy them now. Also, you need the antimatter blueprint copies. I suggest using maximum runs on the T1 BPCs to get the full 10 runs out of the T2 BPC.
Check the program in my sig for a calculator to see if a particular invented item is profitable. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.11.20 18:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
To find out what an R&D agent can do you need to visit the agent, right click on them and select "agent info". This will ist what reserch skills they have... you need to match their skill levels and the min corp standing requirements for acessing them. After that it's pretty much passive unless you want to visit them daily to gain extra R&D points.
BPO's can be copied at either NPC stations with research/copy slots of in POS research labs. Simple BPO's like ammo BPO's don't require any additional materials to copy. More complex BPO's do.
Whether you use max run BPCs or single run BPCs depends on what you're invernting. I highly recommend Caltech Shipyards |
notha atfast
Jabba Industries INC. Punkz 'n Monkeys
26
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Posted - 2012.11.20 19:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=150195
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
791
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Posted - 2012.11.20 19:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sethimothy wrote:Inventing is something I've always been interested in. I have a significant amount of SP invested in BPO researching and manufacturing, but a very bare minimum invested in Invention and it's something that I've found to be obtuse. It's something that, for lack of a better term, I've clearly done WRONG, when I've bothered to do it at all.
So today I'm going to bring up a specific example, and bring up my questions, to make my questions a little easier to make sense of and to perhaps answer the questions of others. It shows my assumptions of things, WHICH MAY BE FAULTY, so please feel free to correct as needed.
---
Let's say I want to use Invention on Antimatter Charge S Blueprints. We know that this will create, upon success, a BPC for Void S (a type of ammunition used in T2 Railguns.)
We know we need skills. All invention requires three skills, and this one needs:
Electromagnetic Physics Gallente Encryption Methods Plasma Physics
Each level in these skills gives a +1% chance to not failing horribly, and since this ammunition isn't a ship it gets the greatest base chance to succeed, at 40%. With all three of these at level one (a silly idea, as each can be trained to three in less than a day each) there is a 43% chance that a BPC for Void S will be created. Based on skills alone, the best we can hope for is a base 55% increase based on all skills at 55%.
For the sake of this invention, we are forsaking Decryptors, because they are expensive and we're just making ammo. We can get a bonus percent by using an item for reference. In this case, having some Void S ammo, a tech 2 item, would give about a 1% bonus. I'm not sure if a single piece of ammo is needed, or a full run of 100.
Next, we need three items:
Datacore - Electromagnetic Physics Datacore - Plasma Physics Incognito Data Interface
The Datacores can be bought from the market, or won through R&D points from select agents (hell if i Know which ones though.) The Incognito Data Interface is made from a BPO I have never seen, and can't find solid evidence of where exists; purchasing it off the market premade makes the whole thing rather unprofitable. All three of these are consumed whether or not the Invention is successful.
---
That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how. Thus, the example provided. I want to reiterate, it is shared as A FLAWED EXAMPLE, and I know it's wrong; the issue is, I don't entirely understand why and how and could use your assistance in regards to this.
The math is a trifle more complicated. Not a great deal more, but a little more.
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/invention/ (or http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ if you want it integrated into a blueprint calculator)
And it gets quite different when you throw in a meta level item. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Lolar55
Titan Core
8
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Posted - 2012.11.20 20:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Its good to use decryptors when trying to invent expensive ship. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1109
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Invention |
Brian Leetch
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.11.23 01:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS? |
Zinn Irate
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.11.23 03:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Brian Leetch wrote:I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS?
You can also find them in low sec, usually, if you scout around a bit. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1304
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Posted - 2012.11.23 03:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sethimothy wrote:That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how. The only thing that actually matters that you listed and is wrong in your example is that you mentioned the interface as a consumable, but it's not used up. IIRC, the interface is not even locked down in the invention process, you just need it there to start the job - so you only ever need to buy one of each of them once, regardless how many parallel jobs you're running with each of them, and you can pretty much neglect those cost in any lengthier invention business.
It doesn't really matter whether you know where datacores or interfaces actually come from, what matters is how much their value is (whether you get them yourself or buy them from the market doesn't really noticeably change their market value, the only savings you might make are the razor-thin trader margins and/or your own broker fees, at most, so not really that much of a big deal overall). So, overall, you just need to know roughly how much datacores cost,
You also forgot the T1 BPC needed to start the invention process, that one is consumed, and while it's relatively cheap for your example (you still want a max-run one either way), it's less cheap for other invention jobs (especially those you want to also use decryptors with, like ship invention ; less important but still relevant for jobs with a meta-item optional consumable, seldom profitable to use either way, mostly just for some modules that have really cheap decent meta items). http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T T2 BPO poll: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 Buying this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=147098 |
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
237
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Posted - 2012.11.23 04:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Step 1.
Train science to Level 1.
Step 2.
Head to Jita, dock 4-4 trade hub, buy Heat sink 1 BPO (unresearched, researched, same thing).
Step 3.
Make max run (300 runs) copy's (usually 20 at a time).
Step 4.
Take Max run BPC to station with invention slots and run the invention.
Step 5.
Underpants!
Step 6.
Profit!
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Sturmwolke
298
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Posted - 2012.11.23 11:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
T2 invention is easy to grasp, its cost is also easy to ballpark (which usually works out at 300-500K per run). Comparatively, T3 is even easier in terms of process flow, however its cost calculations gets quite complicated (due to the different relic type, relic pricing and random output) if you want the optimal solution. It's funny how CCP wanted to make it easier, but actually ended up with a convoluted schema for the players.
If you're doing casual T2 invention, it's often easier to ballpark a 40% success rate (for modules/ammo) : 1 - Racial encryption skill at least L3 2 - Related science skill at least L3 (L4 preferred)
Consumables for T2 invention are: 1 - BPC 2 - Datacores
Notes: Racial data tuner/interface are not consumed and can be reused. Always dual-skill your inventor as a T2 manufacturer. Those science skill works synergistically as pre-requisites for T2 manufacturing.
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Fluffy Sheep
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2012.11.23 21:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Don't laugh...
I've read a bunch of invention stuff and even tried a couple with mining crystals. Something I haven't got my head around yet though and seem to have missed in my reading, is how you increase the runs in the tech 2 bpc you've produced. Or on the bpc before the invention for that matter.
From the two I've done, I figured that the material level etc on the bpo you made the copy from doesn't affect the resulting bpc or tech 2 variant.
Seeing the tech 2 bpc with 1 run remaining is a bit depressing.
The way invention is done in this game seems very clunky and awkward. Like it was designed by an engineer and not a normal human being :D |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
95
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Posted - 2012.11.23 21:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Brian Leetch wrote:I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS?
NPC stations allow you to queue up items so a free spot isn't required to setup a research job.
For example if a copy station has 2 days wait time you can still install the job. Your job will get queued up. If you're job is a 10 day long job what will happen is your job will start after the first job finishes, making your total wait time 12 days.
You're not likely to find any ME, or copy stations totally available with no wait, its just not going to happen.
Oh and for those who are wondering why some stations have a 100+ day wait times on a station slot here is a little secret most people don't know about, or don't like to share.
Lets stay a station slot has a 20 day wait. You install 2 30 day jobs on the 1 slot (bringing the total to 70 days). Once the first 20 day job completes you now have 1 slot with 60 days still on it.
What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.
Once the 5 1 day jobs complete, you again cancel your 2 30 day jobs, re-load 5 more 1 day jobs, and 2 30 day jobs again. And repeat as long as you want to control this research slot.
This basically allows you to "own" that research slot since no one will never put a job at the end of your 60 day wait time. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
10
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Posted - 2012.11.23 22:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fluffy Sheep wrote:Something I haven't got my head around yet though and seem to have missed in my reading, is how you increase the runs in the tech 2 bpc you've produced.
When you make the T1 copies, specify the max runs possible. For mining crystals I believe that's a 100 run BPC. That will (in the absence of any decryptors), result in a 10 run T2 BPC if the invention succeeds
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Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
10
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Posted - 2012.11.23 22:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.
Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days.
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Styth spiting
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
95
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Posted - 2012.11.23 22:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:Styth spiting wrote:What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these. Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days.
Really since when? I haven't done this in a long time but had a alts corp mate say they were doing this with copy jobs a few months ago and it sounded like it still worked. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
795
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 22:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Elena Thiesant wrote:Styth spiting wrote:What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these. Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days. Really since when? I haven't done this in a long time but had a alts corp mate say they were doing this with copy jobs a few months ago and it sounded like it still worked.
Since before I started. And it's explicitly to stops this kind of shenanigans. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
95
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Posted - 2012.11.23 23:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
766
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 01:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen.
If you really want to test it, test it. But it sure as hell doesn't work. All it will do is create an absurdly long queue for the slot. |
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Styth spiting
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
95
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Posted - 2012.11.24 04:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Styth spiting wrote:Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen. If you really want to test it, test it. But it sure as hell doesn't work. All it will do is create an absurdly long queue for the slot.
Well if this is the case though the someone or a group of people could fly around and setup every slot in a few regions to have 100+ day queue times by simply installing a couple of 30 day jobs and instantly canceling them? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
766
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Posted - 2012.11.24 07:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Styth spiting wrote:Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen. If you really want to test it, test it. But it sure as hell doesn't work. All it will do is create an absurdly long queue for the slot. Well if this is the case though the someone or a group of people could fly around and setup every slot in a few regions to have 100+ day queue times by simply installing a couple of 30 day jobs and instantly canceling them?
Which has been suggested -- recently, in this forum. It's not as trivial as it sounds though. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
10
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Posted - 2012.11.24 08:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Elena Thiesant wrote:Styth spiting wrote:What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these. Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days. Really since when? I haven't done this in a long time but had a alts corp mate say they were doing this with copy jobs a few months ago and it sounded like it still worked.
Since before I started (which isn't all that long ago tbh)
When you go to cancel a job, the warning message that you get explicitly says that the time will not be freed up. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1307
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 12:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Well if this is the case though the someone or a group of people could fly around and setup every slot in a few regions to have 100+ day queue times by simply installing a couple of 30 day jobs and instantly canceling them? BOTH the installation line AND the character's line slots are kept occupied for the full length, again, to prevent this exact type of shenanigans. You can still do it, but it would cost you a lot of active accounts collaborating.
P.S. Intentionally and heavily abusing the trial and/or buddy system for such purposes is a perma-ban-for-all-accounts level offense (insofar as they can be matched to you in any way, and CCP has other ways than just IP, one of them being the hash of the OS product ID and maybe even hardware ID hashes or somesuch, which is collected by the game client, it was mentioned as an aside comment to security stuff a few years ago by some devs, so they can more or less reliably identify the actual machine you're working from). Besides, the buddy system, not so abusable anymore anyway. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T T2 BPO poll: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 Buying this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=147098 |
Lolar55
Titan Core
8
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Posted - 2012.11.24 14:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
skills to lvl3?Sure if you don't mind losing more than half of the bpcs you put for invention.I have all i need at lvl 5 and i consider myself lucky when I get 6successfull out of 11jobs set.When i had lvl 3 i usually lost 7-8 out of 11.The difference in profit specially if you value your time in the long run is too big. |
Karig'Ano Keikira
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.11.26 13:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
basically as others explained: -> get BPO -> make max run copies* -> get datacores and interface (you only ever need one, it is never consumed and you can run parallel invention runs with only one) -> click copy -> invention -> note: some BPCs can invent into multiple tech 2 items (for example merlin), in this case you might have to select which one you are trying to make, otherwise you always end up with 1st choice -> collect your tech II BPCs personally I run small pos for invention -> manufacturing, but i guess you could invent in NPC stations, slots are incredible pain however, especially if you do it a lot *: unless you plan on inventing ships in which case it doesn't matter** **: unless you use decryptors that increase number of runs in which case you want max runs for ships as well
other notes: - if you plan on making significant profit from it, selling BPCs is incredible pain and poor profit, you likely want to produce t2 goods yourself - as with most other things in EVE, don't try be self sufficient unless you are fond of pain - buying datacores (and most t2 production mats is generally preferable to producing them yourself unless you have incredible logistics behind you) - some people will tell you to get skills on 4 or 5, but in reality most of your expenses in tech 2 is mats for production, invention cost is basically trivial unless you a) invent ships (especially big ones) or b) invent really cheap modules - don't bother with ships or cheap modules, all calculations I did with ship invention showed that invention -> production of tech 2 ships is nonprofitable* *: I think problem is that tech II BPO owners dominate the ship market (however i might have just calculated something wrong :) ) |
justavisit
Guardians of Eden
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
to the answer above there is just one thing to add:
- you can use faction ammo (one single bullet) as meta item, even if there is no meta level in its description
In your case that is CN antimatter S for example (using void S will not work, since t2 items can not be used to invent t2 BPCs). Its cost is neglectible in comparison to the datacores but it still adds a few percent to your invention chance, so it is almost always worth it. Its 'hidden' meta level, is 2 afaik ...(faction missiles do show this stats).
Just as an example.. with level 4 skills you got 48.25% without and 52,69% with it. ... ofc you can go crazy and get dread gurista ammo instead... but dont blame me if that is than not worth it.
gl |
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