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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
46
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Posted - 2012.11.23 01:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.
Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)
It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.
Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.
So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.
We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.
There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.
Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way. |
Orlok Raven
Perkone ORCA Provider
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 01:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.
Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)
It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.
Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.
So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.
We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.
There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.
Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way.
/signed |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
59
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Posted - 2012.11.23 02:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??
u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.
if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
46
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Posted - 2012.11.23 02:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??
u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.
if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo.
I though this would come up.
we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?
I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. we should not have to get a scout. Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
15
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Posted - 2012.11.23 03:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.
Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)
It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.
Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.
So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.
We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.
There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.
Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way. Freighters do need to have their ehp adjusted, since they were balanced around Battleship-ganking costs. Whether this is strictly an actual addition or the addition of a low slot (for a DCU), either would suffice.
But agreed--there needs to be a change since its much cheaper for gankers to pop freighters vs the ever rising cost of freighters.
Additionally, there should be an additional freighter tier (or maybe a couple): 1) one with less space than the big ones but way more than the biggest Industrial and 2) one with more ehp/less space/DCU slot, etc.
And before people harp on that Orcas exist and fill this gap, Orcas require mining-related training, which doesn't make a lick of sense when your character has industrial/freighters trained.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1147
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 03:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??
u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.
if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo. I though this would come up. we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go? You're assuming that the gank was made for profit reasons. Sometimes it can be to send a message (which can have wider effects). Or maybe IT IS for profit and gankers are simply getting paid by another entity behind the scenes.
Red Frog Rufen wrote:I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. "Tactical tradeoffs." You want to be safer? Get a scout. You can't afford one? Then you have to make a risk assessment on whether or not you think you can make it unmolested.
Red Frog Rufen wrote:we should not have to get a scout. What makes you so special that you should not need a scout?
Even PvP pilots are called "idiots" for moving battleships or capitals without a scout or escort.
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use? You make it sound like they have no use now that people have realized that ganking a freighter can be done efficiently. This is not the case. They can still do their job... it is you, the player, who must adjust... not the game.
Also... the Teir 3 battlecruisers may be able to pump out more DPS (and thus require fewer numbers to perform a gank) than the old gank ships of choice... but they are also more expensive. Overall... the cost of suicide ganking has not increased or decreased by all that much. The only thing that has happened is that the people doing it are more visible than before. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Minty Moon
4
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Posted - 2012.11.23 03:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?
I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it? (Player Opened Direct Wormholes) (Expanding on Wormholes) |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
46
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 05:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I though this would come up.
we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?
You're assuming that the gank was made for profit reasons. Sometimes it can be to send a message (which can have wider effects). Or maybe IT IS for profit and gankers are simply getting paid by another entity behind the scenes. Red Frog Rufen wrote:I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. "Tactical tradeoffs." You want to be safer? Get a scout. You can't afford one? Then you have to make a risk assessment on whether or not you think you can make it unmolested. Red Frog Rufen wrote:we should not have to get a scout. What makes you so special that you should not need a scout? Even PvP pilots are called "idiots" for moving battleships or capitals without a scout or escort. Red Frog Rufen wrote:Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use? You make it sound like they have no use now that people have realized that ganking a freighter can be done efficiently. This is not the case. They can still do their job... it is you, the player, who must adjust... not the game. Also... the Teir 3 battlecruisers may be able to pump out more DPS (and thus require fewer numbers to perform a gank) than the old gank ships of choice... but they are also more expensive. Overall... the cost of suicide ganking has not increased or decreased by all that much. The only thing that has happened is that the people doing it are more visible than before.
well, why would everyone in this game get new ships once in a while but us?
freighters in my exemple, with less then 300m in their cargo, were in most case really anonymous and in NPC corp. what kind of message is that? it's a message that "hey, look at us, we're ganking you for fun because it's easy!"
trust me, we have ajusted a lot in the last few months. we are not here to complain about ganking, we are here to ask if it's possible to have a new ship. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
46
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 05:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Minty Moon wrote:you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?
I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it?
hmm, we charge 500k a jump.
with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that.
so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time?
i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
219
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Posted - 2012.11.23 06:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
I was going to come in and mock but.. I use red frog a LOT so.. =< |
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Laurence Pinkitin
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.11.23 07:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Minty Moon wrote:you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?
I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it? hmm, we charge 500k a jump. with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that. so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time? i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama.
wow 500k a jump? It would take over 2k jumps to pay off a ship...yall are selling yourselves short. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10723
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 08:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
I can see the need for a mini freighter. I can see that it would be a nice addition.
Just a few things to take into account.
Chances are, it wouldn't hold much more than 200,000m3. I believe it's EHP, wouldn't be much higher than current freighters and may even be lower. You would still get ganked.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 09:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Laurence Pinkitin wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:Minty Moon wrote:you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?
I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it? hmm, we charge 500k a jump. with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that. so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time? i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama. wow 500k a jump? It would take over 2k jumps to pay off a ship...yall are selling yourselves short.
Very good point. At what point does operating on such small margins become the reason for what seems to be unrelated failures?
Something as valuable as a loaded freighter, should never even undock without an escort of some sort. An alt that can web and provide some defensive fleet bonuses doesn't take all that much training. You are losing ships because you are cutting corners on security. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
47
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 22:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: Very good point. At what point does operating on such small margins become the reason for what seems to be unrelated failures?
Something as valuable as a loaded freighter, should never even undock without an escort of some sort. An alt that can web and provide some defensive fleet bonuses doesn't take all that much training. You are losing ships because you are cutting corners on security.
that's not even the point. we run 10k contracts per month, and we lose 3 or 4 ships a month, of those, 2 are pilots mistake (taking more then they should or double-wraping) and the other 2 are random ganks, miscomm within the gank team, or other reasons.
so, we're not cutting corners on security, we adapted to the new situation, we're not double-wraping anymore to show exactly what we're carrying, we're not going AFK thru the problematic systems. We're now sharing the risk among every member.
500k per jump is what we think our time worth with those ship.
the point of this request is : We would love a new tier of freighter. there havn't been a lot of new logistics toys beside mining and salvaging for a long time.
A tier 2 freighter could have or do many things, and since it would require more skill, it should be better then a tier 1 freighter. not another version with less cargo and more armor. the same way other type of ship tier works.
Some ideas:
- more shield/armor/resist. - Low slot to be able to tank it. - fuel consumption if you want to align faster. - modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)
feel free to suggest your ideas here!
Mag's wrote:I can see the need for a mini freighter. I can see that it would be a nice addition.
Just a few things to take into account.
Chances are, it wouldn't hold much more than 200,000m3. I believe it's EHP, wouldn't be much higher than current freighters and may even be lower. You would still get ganked.
that's already in place, it's the Orca.
and yes, of course, a new ship would still be gankable, just as the JF is gankable. we don't want to be ingankable, we want more options, just like everyone else. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
61
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Posted - 2012.11.24 02:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
when the new logi cruisers come out it wont take much skilling or isk to set up a bunch of logi pilots to follow u around and rep u once u start taking fire.
if ur costs are going up because of ganks, then increase ur prices and have ur customers foot the bill. thats what real corps do. ask urself: is it still worth it? if not, find another profession.
+1 mini freighters tho (ones with less tank and capacity) |
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
36
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Posted - 2012.11.24 02:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Given the decreasing cost of alpha damage (ie: tier 3 battlecruisers) it makes sense for the rest of the universe to adapt.
It seems reasonable for either another tech II freighter that is EHP focused with somewhat less hauling capacity (75% of base?). Or another tier of frieghter that has higher EHP at the expense of capacity (50% - 60% of base?)
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
47
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 04:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jin alPatar wrote:Given the decreasing cost of alpha damage (ie: tier 3 battlecruisers) it makes sense for the rest of the universe to adapt.
It seems reasonable for either another tech II freighter that is EHP focused with somewhat less hauling capacity (75% of base?). Or another tier of frieghter that has higher EHP at the expense of capacity (50% - 60% of base?)
why should it be one at the expense of another, if more skill are required? are tier 3 BC less effective in any ways then the tier 2? |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
282
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 04:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:why should it be one at the expense of another, if more skill are required? are tier 3 BC less effective in any ways then the tier 2?
T3 BCs have very small tanks, and don't have drones (Talos excepted).
Having said that, I would love to see a new freighter. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 05:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote: - modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)
Since Tech 2 stuff is suppose to be specialized, how about a Tech 3 Orca like ship. Have cargo subsystems to add how much and which types of cargo bays you want, or even offensive or defensive buffs. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
47
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 05:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote: - modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)
Since Tech 2 stuff is suppose to be specialized, how about a Tech 3 Orca like ship. Have cargo subsystems to add how much and which types of cargo bays you want, or even offensive or defensive buffs.
that would be awesome, but I doubt they are going to make any new Tech 3 soon. :) |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1150
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 06:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:A tier 2 freighter could have or do many things, and since it would require more skill, it should be better then a tier 1 freighter. not another version with less cargo and more armor. the same way other type of ship tier works. You are aware that CCP is doing away with the old "Tier system" in favor of a "specialties system"... right? Part of the reason they are doing this is because many, many, many ships within a class were looked over in favor of the "better" one... more skills needed be damned.
The best example of this is the mining barge class. The Procurer was almost never used. Why would you use such a ship when a few extra days of training would get you the Covetor, which can mine MUCH more ore and have slightly more tank? Now, the Procurer sports a battlecruiser-like tank at the cost of mining yield and holding capacity... meanwhile the Covetor can mine the most of any T1 barge at the cost of tank and holding capacity.
Jin alPatar wrote:It seems reasonable for either another tech II freighter that is EHP focused with somewhat less hauling capacity (75% of base?). Or another tier of frieghter that has higher EHP at the expense of capacity (50% - 60% of base?) Probably the latter. Jump Freighters have a little under half, to a third of the regular freighters' cargo capacity. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 07:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??
u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.
if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo. I though this would come up. we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go? I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. we should not have to get a scout. Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?
I agree with you man. For a ship that was supposed to move allot of stuff(aka expensive) they sure pop easy.
If you got ganked for 300mill cargo that yeah its pretty bad out here .
I don't own one myself as i like to play the game for pvp, but some corp members do and the amount of planning we do when we move those full of something its incredible.
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Chaotic Mind
Rennfeuer Curatores Veritatis Alliance
16
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Posted - 2012.11.24 10:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well at the beginning of the WH-Era, everyone was so excited about the Tech III stuff that even CCP thought about T3 Frigates and stuff.
Now maybe the Sleepers should get another push.
What i want to say... Tech III Freighters (and Frigates)
T3 Freighters would be the solution for everyone imho, there could be subsystems for:
- More Armor/Shield/Structure -> less Cargo - Faster Traver -> Less Cargo - Ship Transportation -> No Cargo - Mineral Transportation -> No Cargo - probably alot more
just my 3 cents, and you know it's a good idea ;) |
GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 10:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Id actually like an orca that didn't require all the mining & leadership skills. had maybe 200-250k m3 cargo and 800k - 1mill m3 ship maint bay to haul fitted bs's 40k corp hanger array.
could fit 2 large remote shield or armour reps, and 1 large cap transfer and maybe even run cov ops cloak. 50m3 drone bay.
and used shield tank.
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Lin Gerie
Hole Perception Fade 2 Black
4
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 02:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Perhaps something like a deep space transport only a freighter? It would hold about 150,000m3 and have a single midslot.
The bonuses would be freighter: 5% velocity 5% capacity new ship skill: 10% boost to shield/armor/hull hit points 5% reduction in MJD spool up and cool down times. Since it is a deep space transport it would get +2 to warp core strength.
This would allow it to jump through, spool up (which with max skills would take about 5 to 6 seconds down from 12) warp while holding its momentum then warp out. The +2 to warpcore strength would give it survivability against small gatecamps even with insta lock. It would require 2 or 3 insta lock scrams to trap it. |
Commander Ted
Dookie on the flowah
69
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 03:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Perhaps a a mini freighter that is not only faster and smaller but has more armor/shields with decent resists to let it travel through low sec with an escort cheaply and semi more feasibly. The reason that a need for lowsec travel would exist is to pair with my own idea right here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097&find=unread which would add low security space between all the empires and remove all high security space gates that connect the four empires of eve. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Lord Zim
2056
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 04:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. Got a link to this? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
608
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 05:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
@ Red Frog Rufen;
I noted your other topic on this forum pushing the idea of upgrading the sec status of a few key systems which are 0.5 bottlenecks. I can understand your point; within 0.5 systems once the guys have bumped you off gate, 5 tier 3 BC's can gank you with 2 volleys each whereas in 0.6 the filth arrive before the scond volley.
However, while you still have access to overpowered OGB boosters you should deploy them at deep safes in Niarja, Uedama, etc. Your corpies and +10 blues can then join their fleet and move between wings to take advantage of the EHP buffs from the OGB alts on the routes they take. This will boost your freighter's EHP by 10%, which might be all it takes to survive. eg, a Obelisk goes from 200K to 220K EHP, and you can also make it align faster Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed.
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Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
144
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 06:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Freighters are fine as they are. It's very rare that you see a gank on a freighter that has less than 1.5 billion isk in the cargo.
I could be wrong but it seems that maybe hauling ultra expensive loads should be a risky thing. Risk that can be easily avoided by hauling smaller less expensive loads, or perhaps using a ship that's already in the game that does the job better.
Of course there are even many other ways to deal with the risk involved, but the above are the simplest and easiest for a solo hauler to deal with the risk of hauling. |
Beta Miner
COBRA Logistics Outer-Haven
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 06:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
The Orca isnGÇÖt really a freighter. ItGÇÖs a mining support ship.
Also, there has been a lot of talk about an intermediate hauler between the T2 transports and freighters.
So, I donGÇÖt think a pure hauler in the OrcaGÇÖs class is not unreasonable. Heck, use the same hull and just swap the hanger bay, leadership bonusGÇÖs, monster tractor beam for a bigger bay, some tank and maybe level based agility and capacity bonus.
Call it the Narwhal. Easy to implement and there is certainly a niche/demand for it. |
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