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Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:01:00 -
[121] - Quote
if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
38
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:14:00 -
[122] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things. Exactly. OR add another 300 million in the number of gankers required by having a logi ship or similar follow you around, and then carry not much more than 800 million, etc. |
Jaling Orion
New Edens United Nation Li3 Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things. Exactly. OR add another 300 million in the number of gankers required by having a logi ship or similar follow you around, and then carry not much more than 800 million, etc.
Soo...what's the point of a freighter if you're only taking up 1/10th the cargo space because you're afraid of getting ganked? Am I missing something or should someone feel safe transporting a capital-class ship through hi-sec without the fear of loosing it to a few BC? |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:29:00 -
[124] - Quote
Jaling Orion wrote:Crimeo Khamsi wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things. Exactly. OR add another 300 million in the number of gankers required by having a logi ship or similar follow you around, and then carry not much more than 800 million, etc. Soo...what's the point of a freighter if you're only taking up 1/10th the cargo space because you're afraid of getting ganked? Am I missing something or should someone feel safe transporting a capital-class ship through hi-sec without the fear of loosing it to a few BC?
ur missing something. u shouldnt be safe in a titan in high sec. high sec is NOT safe, it is only 'relatively' safe to low and null sec.
and what kind of things do u carry? cause i fill my freighters and they only carry 600mil, if even that. |
Jaling Orion
New Edens United Nation Li3 Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:38:00 -
[125] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: ur missing something. u shouldnt be safe in a titan in high sec. high sec is NOT safe, it is only 'relatively' safe to low and null sec.
and what kind of things do u carry? cause i fill my freighters and they only carry 600mil, if even that.
I get that Hi-sec doesn't mean safe, I just mean to kill a capital-class ship, you should need more then a handful BC considering that a Freighter costs somewhere in the range of 1.4Bil all by itself, before even counting cargo. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
38
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:38:00 -
[126] - Quote
Jaling Orion wrote:Crimeo Khamsi wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things. Exactly. OR add another 300 million in the number of gankers required by having a logi ship or similar follow you around, and then carry not much more than 800 million, etc. Soo...what's the point of a freighter if you're only taking up 1/10th the cargo space because you're afraid of getting ganked? Am I missing something or should someone feel safe transporting a capital-class ship through hi-sec without the fear of loosing it to a few BC? You're asking the question wrong. Your question assumes that the freighter is flown SOLO. But that is only one of two options:
IF you are flying it solo, then the point of a freighter is for moving things like ore, which are lowish value individually and high volume, and are only profitable in huge bulk.
IF you are moving several battleships and such (you can't fit capital ships, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there) around, or huge numbers of more valuable things, though, then you need to have significant escorts going with you, even in high sec.
Simple as that.
If you don't have any friends to escort you, and you still want to move valuable modules around or whatever, then the correct choice for you is to solo fly a blockade runner, or a covops frigate, depending on the volume.
Quote:I get that Hi-sec doesn't mean safe, I just mean to kill a capital-class ship, you should need more then a handful BC considering that a Freighter costs somewhere in the range of 1.4Bil all by itself, before even counting cargo. Why? If it were a combat ship, then youre logic would make sense. Combat ships should be about equally matched for total price, very roughly (at least at the same tech level).
But it's not. It is a big floating metal tub for holding stuff. The price is purely due to size, not combat robustness. makes perfect sense for a lower value ship to be able to kill it easily.
This is in line with historical reality, too, by the way: a huge merchant ship, even without any cargo, was WAY more expensive than a little pirate sloop, but the sloop, with a combat crew and better guns and mobility, etc, could still easily win a fight, because the price of the sloop ALL went into combat effectiveness, and the price of the merchantmen almost ALL went into cargo hauling. |
Lord Zim
2072
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:39:00 -
[127] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So out of 550 kills the last 24 hours, 2 lowsec freighters, one wormhole freighters and 6 hisec freighters. So, 1.09% of the kills the last 20-24 hours or so are hisec freighters. Oh dear so sad. Hurr I ****** up, it's not 550 kills the last 20-24 hours, it's 5000. so 0.12% of the total kills is the correct number. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:41:00 -
[128] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:if 500 mil of gankers can take a freighter, then u shouldnt carry much more than 500mil. carrying 2 bil in a freighter is quite foolish.
and are u saying that freighters should carry 4-6 bil of assets without being profitable to gank? cause thats incredible. thats something like 60 talos's, so no.
u need to reduce the amount u carry, drastically, by the looks of things.
No i wasnt saying that. I was saying that freighter should have atleast 4bils to make it worthwhile to gank. I didnt say to not make it worthwhile. Anyways you may disagree with me. But thats my opinion. Also i was saying that freighter pilot loses too much just in hull cost compared to gankers. Which makes it win win situation for gankers. Freighter pilot always lose more even with empty cargo... |
Lord Zim
2072
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:44:00 -
[129] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote:Freighter pilot always lose more even with empty cargo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6so9AT4UydQ Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:48:00 -
[130] - Quote
a hulk costs 200mil, but takes only a couple of unskilled thrashers to gank.
the cost of the ship that is ganked is irrelevent. what matters is the value of what gankers can get from ur ship.
if ur carrying enough to make it worthwhile to gank then thats ur responsibility. no one is forcing u to carry that much, or items that valuable. its all on u.
bearing in mind that roughly half ur cargo is destroyed, gankers have to wait until ur carrying almost double the value of the ganking ships before they can break even. so if they are still making a profit, whos fault is that?
i'll admit, 40 catalysts doesnt cost much, and its an impressive show of organisation. that was just unlucky for the freighter. but a few logi and especially ecm against catalysts, might have made all the difference. |
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Lord Zim
2072
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:49:00 -
[131] - Quote
I'm sure we killed a freighter with 150 frigates during burn jita as well.
I guess that's also overpowered. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:55:00 -
[132] - Quote
Very nice vid.. Alltho its missing freighter :p |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
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Posted - 2012.11.28 16:55:00 -
[133] - Quote
i just had an lolgasm |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
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Posted - 2012.11.28 20:57:00 -
[134] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:I'm sure we killed a freighter with 150 frigates during burn jita as well. I guess that's also overpowered.
There was an all Thrasher freighter kill. It was Boat's idea, and it ended up taking about 200 Thrashers. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
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Posted - 2012.11.28 22:20:00 -
[135] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:
tier 2 BS with the same guns, at the time: approx 150m (with premium), you needed 9-10 to gank a freighter. you got 72m back from insurance if you paid your premium.
u dnt get insurance pay outs when u've been bawssed by concord
at the time meant last year, before tier3 bc, and before concord removed insurance pay out for concord kills. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
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Posted - 2012.11.28 22:30:00 -
[136] - Quote
i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM?
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 22:45:00 -
[137] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Lord Zim wrote:So out of 550 kills the last 24 hours, 2 lowsec freighters, one wormhole freighters and 6 hisec freighters. So, 1.09% of the kills the last 20-24 hours or so are hisec freighters. Oh dear so sad. Hurr I ****** up, it's not 550 kills the last 20-24 hours, it's 5000. so 0.12% of the total kills is the correct number.
sorry, meant per week.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&m=11&y=2012&view=kills&m=11&y=2012&scl_id=20
those include low/Null, but you still get the idea. |
Lord Zim
2073
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 22:50:00 -
[138] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM? So there's 10 people spending their time and their money to gank something which needs to carry around 2b to reliably break even. What's wrong with that? It's 10 people spending their time in one out of two systems, providing 0.12% of the kills in all of EVE pr 24 hours (actually it's probably less, since I don't think I counted more than a 20 hour period today), why are these 0.12% of kills so special they need to be looked at so bad by CCP? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1159
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 22:56:00 -
[139] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM?
The idea is not to completely negate all the incoming DPS... it is to mitigate it. Repping back ~500 HP per repper (a full rack of large reppers on a logi is ~2000 hp) of the gankers' volleys may be all it takes to ensure the survival of your freighter... unless the gankers are going for overkill... which they generally don't do because it raises the "bottom line." This same line of thinking same applies for ECM... though that is more chance based than remote repairs and not a surefire way to ensure safety. Command ship and T3 bonuses are also way to also increase the odds of survival by increasing a ships armor, shields, and resistances... all of which will throw a wrench into the calculations of gankers and increase the odds that a freighter may survive.
The best defense though is... as has been said countless times... simply not putting yourself in a compromising situation in the first place. Use webbing alts to "insta-warp" your freighters (it's a maneuver that takes less than 5 seconds... no ship with an oversized prop mod can get up to speed and bump the freighter in that time)... take the route that has the least amount of ganks... and put in less than double the amount it would take to gank your ship (remember, 50% loot drop makes ganking to "break even" not attractive). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
40
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 22:56:00 -
[140] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM?
No, the point is that nobody would BRING 8-9 talos in the first place. They're expecting you to be unescorted, so theyll bring just barely more than it takes to gank you in the number of seconds before CONCORD arrives.
I assume that you are talking about a system with about a 12 second CONCORD response time (since you have used this number previously in the thread). So 9 talos * 3000DPS * 12 seconds = 324000 EHP, which is like 70% overkill for what is needed for a freighter. Nobody would ever just throw away 3 talos that they didn't need, just to be safe. They might have like, maximum ONE extra more than they need.
In this specific example, they would more likely bring 6 talos, which gives them about 1/2 a talos of overkill as a safety margin (in order to reduce their losses to CONCORD). In this more realistic scenario, a handful of logi ships (not even as many as they have talos) could successfully defend you, because they could offset the damage of about 1 attacker (more than their safety cushion), and by the time CONCORD arrived, you would still be alive with a few hitpoints.
Alternatively, with a handful of ECM boats (let's say 3) in the same corp as you, you could disable the targeting of 3 of those talos after a few seconds. Let's say it takes you 6 seconds to get the ECM out. That would neutralize 1.5 (3 divided by half remaining time) talos' worth of their intended DPS, which would also be enough to save you with plenty of hitpoints remaining. 3 ECMers in this case would even give you a nice safety margin, because one of those could fail to jam its target, and you would STILL come out alive. |
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
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Posted - 2012.11.28 22:58:00 -
[141] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM? So there's 10 people spending their time and their money to gank something which needs to carry around 2b to reliably break even. What's wrong with that? It's 10 people spending their time in one out of two systems, providing 0.12% of the kills in all of EVE pr 24 hours (actually it's probably less, since I don't think I counted more than a 20 hour period today), why are these 0.12% of kills so special they need to be looked at so bad by CCP?
I need to quit mixing the 2 threads, and I think you did too, since they are closely related.
The thread here is about new choice of freighters, and has nothing to do with ganking per say. if we get new toys, they will still be gankable (probably too easely, but that's another debate) and nothing will change that.
the point that deviated this thread (yet again) is the break even value. and we can make another thread about that if you want. but stop derailling this one please.
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Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 23:16:00 -
[142] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM?
i did show u a bit of the math to show how it would work, but if ur going to be that ignorant then screw it. dnt do anything and continue to do what u do the way u do.
and btw, no talos does 3000dps. when ur this stubborn and narrow minded, im amazed uve lasted in eve this long. |
Lord Zim
2074
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 23:19:00 -
[143] - Quote
So far, during november (i.e. 28 days), there's been killed around 265800 ships. That means that out of all the ships blown up in eve, in november, 0,085779% were freighters in hisec, 0,021445% were freighters in lowsec and 0,004515% were freighters in null. 0,001129% were freighters in wormholes, but I guess those don't count. vOv
The most deadly day for freighters, when looking at an average of 9500 kills/day during 1-28th of november, was november 23rd, with 0.17895% of the kills that day, where a whole 17 freighters were killed in hisec. Oh dear, this is such a huge problem that it must be looked at at once. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 23:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:i'm still waiting for a way 5 or 6 logi could save me from 8-9 talos doing 3000 DPS each while the logi can only repair 500.
even with ECM, the ganker need to shoot first. and ther's often 10 of them.. how do you counter that? with 10 ECM?
i did show u a bit of the math to show how it would work, but if ur going to be that ignorant then screw it. dnt do anything and continue to do what u do the way u do. and btw, no talos does 3000dps. when ur this stubborn and narrow minded, im amazed uve lasted in eve this long.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15293523
so, response time in a .5 system is 12 seconds.
that first guy managed 36k in 12 seconds.
how many DPS is that?
you showed me the math, but you can't rep more then 7.5k HP on the shield anyway, since it's the maximum shield any freighter can have!
Lord Zim: which part of my post in this page did you not get?
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Lord Zim
2074
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:01:00 -
[145] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Lord Zim: which part of my post in this page did you not get? You're claiming there's a huge need for a new freighter because the ganking is out of control. I'm pointing out just how small a fraction of the ships killed monthly and daily it takes before you're whining about how it's out of control.
Don't like the stats? Tough noogies. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:08:00 -
[146] - Quote
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/CONCORD_Details
19 seconds...tho its not 100% consistent. and eve uni points to 19 seconds until the 'first felt action' of concord...so things can go on a little longer.
[Talos, Talos Ganker] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Hobgoblin II x5
it appears a talos like this can do 1640 dps and 6389 alpha...thats still not 3000dps and like ive said, u dnt have to rep faster than the incoming dps to save the freighter, just make it last long enough for concord to arrive
edit- this fit can manage 39k damage in 20 seconds, which is close to the kill u put up. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:08:00 -
[147] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:Lord Zim: which part of my post in this page did you not get? You're claiming there's a huge need for a new freighter because the ganking is out of control. I'm pointing out just how small a fraction of the ships killed monthly and daily it takes before you're whining about how it's out of control. Don't like the stats? Tough noogies.
what? where?
I pointed out that there is now a new BC that give the gankers a new edge.
then I asked if we, the poor freighters (haha), could get a new toy too.
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Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
72
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:10:00 -
[148] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:Lord Zim: which part of my post in this page did you not get? You're claiming there's a huge need for a new freighter because the ganking is out of control. I'm pointing out just how small a fraction of the ships killed monthly and daily it takes before you're whining about how it's out of control. Don't like the stats? Tough noogies. what? where? I pointed out that there is now a new BC that give the gankers a new edge. then I asked if we, the poor freighters (haha), could get a new toy too.
u dnt need a new toy. u need logi |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:13:00 -
[149] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/CONCORD_Details19 seconds...tho its not 100% consistent. and eve uni points to 19 seconds until the 'first felt action' of concord...so things can go on a little longer. it appears a talos like this can do 1640 dps and 6389 alpha...thats still not 3000dps and like ive said, u dnt have to rep faster than the incoming dps to save the freighter, just make it last long enough for concord to arrive
in which case the 2-3 spares will get you on the next gates...
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 00:17:00 -
[150] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: u dnt need a new toy. u need logi
hey, let's test this on the test server, and see how it goes.
I keep telling you guys, it'll make no difference. even if it did, that's not why we want new toys. it's not to avoid the gankers. they will always find a way.
but give us something to challenge them a little.
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