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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Digital Messiah
Industrial Solutions
235
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been playing off and on since about 2006, hey I'm not an 03 veteran. But six years is enough to peak my curiosity. Why do people talk on the forums about wasted development time, dead lines, have such hard criticism about CCP's company policies, and activity? This is the only game where I have seen players rant in such a form. Maybe it is because you feel like they listen to your opinions, which they do. Or your investment means you hold an imaginary share in the company. All in all though it is just weird, stalker'ish at some points, and obsessive. Sure I care to what they do but it is just a game developer. It isn't like they are testing eve products out on animals or pushing religious dogma.
I just want someone to explain to me why people are such hard critics to a game developer who does more for their community than any other in the business? "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Auric Veldfinger
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
It works both ways though. How many free resources, in game and out of game, have been made by players to retain paying customers for CCP? More than I can count. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
369
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
2002
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's not just Eve. Check the forums of LoL, WoW, or other large, continually-updated, multiplayer games and you'll find a similar situation. When a game continually consumes money in order to be continually updated, the customers expect to get "their money's worth". This manifests either in constructive feedback, senseless ranting, or anything in between.
In other words, it makes no sense to complain at Nintendo to "buff Mario" in Super Smash or something, because you're not paying for continued development, and they're not committed to continually improving the game experience. Nintendo already has your money, whether you like the product or not, and that's how things are. In Eve (or other similar games), your continued investment depends on your happiness -- therefore giving the semi-illusion of holding "stock" and having a say. To some degree, that counts. To another, people take themselves far too seriously.
In closing, buff the Rifter or I am unsubbing my 29 accounts. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Skorpynekomimi
271
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because we're subscribed to it, and invested in the company heavily. Time AND money.
We're paying them, so we deserve a say. Much like how democracy works; you pay your taxes, you get a vote and the right to write to your MP/congressman/whoever to demand answers. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
543
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gotta complain about something. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
58
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
I used terms like "wasted dev time" a few times recently.
The meaning behind, for me, is frustration. Not about my money, but about the fact to have a "better" game instead of an "amazing game" when I look at the features of retribution.
And also the fear that, considering the time needed to "simply" add new icons, change the UI, and so on, any change occuring now will stay for a long, long time, even if it's more or less "broken" (current hp bars on tranquility for example). *Yelling "Manticooore !" on teamspeak* |
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
669
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE.
Once the money leaves your account it is no longer yours.
CEO of B.U.T.T.
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Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
79
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Because a long time ago, the player base and the company forged an unspoken agreement that EVE was different then most other games. While most games makers BUILD content for players to CONSUME, in EVE developers create tools for the players to create the content. In this way there is a type of partnership.
In the long history of EVE, time after time this has been reinforced. From past missteps of trust leading to the CSM and their growing power, to Moniclegate where the player base demonstrated that a) It would not allow anyone to ruin their game, event the developers and b) they feel so passionately about the game they could organize a massive campaign to get their point across.
While it is true that a lot on this forums pushes the envelope of exactly how entitled one can be before becoming insufferable. For better or worse much of the games future is forged in the collective foundry of the player base. Implemented by the developers, defended by the CSM, and played out in our nightly opera of destruction. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
2004
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Altrue wrote:And also the fear that, considering the time needed to "simply" add new icons, change the UI, and so on, any change occuring now will stay for a long, long time, even if it's more or less "broken" (current hp bars on tranquility for example). Many "simple" tasks in software development are actually extremely technically complex. Icons/UI have to go through the creative design process on top of the technical complexity of revamping what is a very old Eve interface (my guess is they just started most of it from scratch). Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
100
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meryl SinGarda wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE. Once the money leaves your account it is no longer yours. That's quite a naive statement when talking about a subscription service.
Now if I buy a TV and take it home, the money is no longer mine and all I'm entitled to, is the warranty by the manufacturer.
But when I pay a monthly subscription to a content provider, I DO have a say in their service.
We act as shareholders because in an MMO, the subscribers are the biggest, if not only, asset that the provider has. There is no emergent gameplay, no butterfly effect and no EVE, without us logging in.
I doubt the Tranquility hardware can pay the bills for CCP
... and we talk about "wasted Dev time" because CCP alone owns EVE. There is no publisher, no 2nd product or anything else to muddy the flow of where our money goes. |
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
0
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
EVE players are often like little girls wishing for a pony.
Clueless about the price, clueless about the effort involved to get one, clueless about the cost for upkeep. As a software developer I have learnt not to cringe anymore when another girly comes up with a cool proposal on the forum. Feel free, keep your "contributions" coming. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
920
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Meryl SinGarda wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE. Once the money leaves your account it is no longer yours. Correct.
But nor is it mandatory for any player to pay again next time.
EvE is actually lucky to have a community that cares enough to ***** moan and complain.
If the players didn't it would mean they did not care about EvE and that EvE was just another game we had.
Everyone just walks away from most games without saying a thing. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2012.11.29 22:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Meryl SinGarda wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE. Once the money leaves your account it is no longer yours.
We have to decide every month if we want to part with more of our money. So yeah - this month's money is gone, trapped, spent by CCP. Next month - we can walk away.
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Bump Truck
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.11.29 23:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'm willing to admit there's some fear involved. EVE is just so awesome and loads of people want to ruin it with their stupid ideas.
And that's probably what other people think about me.
(And forum PVP is one of the most fun things about EVE). |
Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
124
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Posted - 2012.11.29 23:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:Meryl SinGarda wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Because we're customers and CCP is literally using our money. If you don't think a business should answer to its customers then I don't think I can help you.
EVE is a unique product, it's not like if Pepsi starts to taste bad we can switch to Coke, if EVE starts to suck we have to go play some other MMORPG and I have tried them and they are no where near the same as EVE and are all godawful compared to EVE. Once the money leaves your account it is no longer yours. That's quite a naive statement when talking about a subscription service. Now if I buy a TV and take it home, the money is no longer mine and all I'm entitled to, is the warranty by the manufacturer. But when I pay a monthly subscription to a content provider, I DO have a say in their service. We act as shareholders because in an MMO, the subscribers are the biggest, if not only, asset that the provider has. There is no emergent gameplay, no butterfly effect and no EVE, without us logging in. I doubt the Tranquility hardware can pay the bills for CCP ... and we talk about "wasted Dev time" because CCP alone owns EVE. There is no publisher, no 2nd product or anything else to muddy the flow of where our money goes.
Just to show a different light on the investiture point you make about subscription services: you can have newspapers and magazines on subscription, as well as books, CD's, DVD's Audiobooks etc.... those subscriptions are the binding agreement. Most give you NO say in what happens.
Every player should be grateful that CCP interact with the playerbase as much as they do, but some of the posts in General Discussion like to portray the "high-hand of player" managing the CCP Games employee's life when they aren't coding, it's pretty detached really.
Can anyone step forward and be able to produce a document where they specifically and categorically changed a criteria within a mass-subscription model via participation as a single subscription holder in anything other than EVE?
It rarely happens.
*Subscriber driven content* takes magazines and turns them into The Enquirer. TV turns to reality music shows where the winner gets a contract, hardly any voters buy it, loads of people vote.
Or worse, reality TV shows where a load of people in a room / several rooms are watched under the premise of a psychological study, after which no results ever materialise in the public domain and the original viewers found that they were soo alike or disimilar to the contestants on that show they might as well watch again as it is free pub-ammo.
Personally I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all CCP Games staff and wish them a Happy New Year, successful expansion launch, successful Dust launch and good memories in their lives outside of work.... too early? |
Metal Icarus
Legion Of Idiots legion of extraordinary Idi0ts
376
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Posted - 2012.11.29 23:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
I invest 30 dollars every month to play this game, and CCP has the courtesy to actually participate in the forums. So, they pay attention to the forums, I pay attention to the forums, now they get to hear me whine about the game.
Its not that we act like investors, we act like players. When CCP starts getting threads about something, and they keep coming, then CCP acts on it.
CCP acting on what is happening in the forums is what gives players the look of investors.
CCP treats their customers like investors and you know what, I am fine with that. It may not be as good as real investors but i am content with what they do so far.
Thanks CCP for paying attention to us idiots, even though sometimes we don't know what we're talking about. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1181
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
because technically we are stakeholders. Like CSM, direct investors and others (even hardware sponsors like Nvidia etc would count).
voicing constructive opinions or concerns is important for stakeholders. Otherwise the only thing you can do is to stop being a stakeholder.... (in our case: stop playing). a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Pohbis
102
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Borascus wrote:Can anyone step forward and be able to produce a document where they specifically and categorically changed a criteria within a mass-subscription model via participation as a single subscription holder in anything other than EVE? I don't think anyone can do that, as a single subscriber. Individuals don't change things in services like these, obviously.
There are however many examples of subscription services making changes, based on subscriber feedback. Retention is afterall, a key in running a subscription service. Best example people here will probably know, is the changes Netflix made to their new streaming/DVD rental business model.
For the record, most of what you mention is traditional single purchase transactions, turned into a subscription model. For books, CDs etc, no, you can't change the individual products as a subscriber. You can however change the products that the service you pay for offers you.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
2429
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
I am very happy that the EVE Online community is so passionate about EVE Online and that the players gladly spend countless hours to work together with our developers to improve the game we all love so much.
Look at mass tests, forum feedback, ISD volunteers or CSM work - this is just fantastic and very awesome! Then we have all the other activity with players providing tools and other helpful things that benefit the EVE Community; EVEMon, EFT, killboards, lotteries, podcasts, blog banters - just to name a few ... without all this the EVE Online ecosphere would be less exciting and thrilling. On top of that you have the actual game where player interaction creates the universe and shapes it over the years into the current shape with immense amount of dedication, drama, epic stories and crazy madness.
I completely understand why the EVE Community is so passionate about EVE Online.
Amongst all this passion we also find sometimes unconstructive ranting, personal attacks and other forum rule violations but this is not the norm and the EVE Community in general shouldn't be judged by these posts.
Of course I encourage everyone to be polite, constructive and fair - this is possible even when you are very passionate about something. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Holy One
304
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Because eve grew inwards not outwards, if half of em quit CCP would be out of business in 6 months. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:I have been playing off and on since about 2006, hey I'm not an 03 veteran. But six years is enough to peak my curiosity. Why do people talk on the forums about wasted development time, dead lines, have such hard criticism about CCP's company policies, and activity? This is the only game where I have seen players rant in such a form. Maybe it is because you feel like they listen to your opinions, which they do. Or your investment means you hold an imaginary share in the company. All in all though it is just weird, stalker'ish at some points, and obsessive. Sure I care to what they do but it is just a game developer. It isn't like they are testing eve products out on animals or pushing religious dogma.
I just want someone to explain to me why people are such hard critics to a game developer who does more for their community than any other in the business?
Because buying GTC's for their dozen alts (some even dozens!!) gives them the feeling their assumptions and statements somehow have more impact than yours?
This is not the only explanation but probably one of them.
Maybe some guy not making the difference in between isk and real money in his threads because for him, isk IS real money (RMT) and whenever you think differently you obviously know nothing about life yada ya?
Another possible explanation maybe?
Just carry on, let it be because in the end you might get really disappointed with some hard truths. |
Sarmea Moon
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
69
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote: This is the only game where I have seen players rant in such a form.
I used to be a volunteer "Councilor" for Ultima Online. From the screaming ranting and raving BEFORE trammel, to EQ rants about dumbing down epic weapons (which is where the term "Welfare Epics" really comes from, that WoW dev borrowed the term) and onto every single MMO on the market. The forums for MMOs have always been a quarter rant and three quarters constructive, and usually around a few solid issues. No matter how hard core you moderate, it's going to get said, some nicer than others. Just check out the extreme moderation on the GW2 forums at any given time. When has it turned into a flamefest? Latest issue is concerning the sudden introduction of a gear treadmill after Nexon bought a chunk of their company. Ahhh smell the monetization.
Players rant because they care, not just about whatever cash they've invested (and no, I'm never pre-ordering a collectors edition again- SWTOR), but they also have invested a ton of time. If they hated it here, they'd go somewhere else. If they stay to whine, it's because they love the game, even if the direction isn't their favorite.
I don't pay a SWTOR sub anymore, I pay for 3 EvE subs.
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
234
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Posted - 2012.11.30 01:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
EVE players are more than just customers - they are content and content creators. Obviously they (should) have a bit more rights and can ask for more than Pepsi or Ford customers. |
CraftyCroc
Gunpoint Diplomacy
57
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Posted - 2012.11.30 01:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:I have been playing off and on since about 2006, hey I'm not an 03 veteran. But six years is enough to peak my curiosity. Why do people talk on the forums about wasted development time, dead lines, have such hard criticism about CCP's company policies, and activity? This is the only game where I have seen players rant in such a form. Maybe it is because you feel like they listen to your opinions, which they do. Or your investment means you hold an imaginary share in the company. All in all though it is just weird, stalker'ish at some points, and obsessive. Sure I care to what they do but it is just a game developer. It isn't like they are testing eve products out on animals or pushing religious dogma.
I just want someone to explain to me why people are such hard critics to a game developer who does more for their community than any other in the business?
Its simple - CCP are unable to please everyone and so tend to favour the 5000 strong alliance over the guy who flies around in a dramiel. The dramiel pilot has a right too complain
Lipbite wrote:EVE players are more than just customers - they are content and content creators. Obviously they (should) have a bit more rights and can ask for more than Pepsi or Ford customers.
ridiculous
WAKE UP |
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
91
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Posted - 2012.11.30 02:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is because old veterans in some cases and for some reasons are exousted or tired form EvE, ok lets stand to fact, we are humans - games, most of us are old players or vetetans, we play this game for years we spent with EvE a lot time,me personaly 500+ days online...
This is normal, that people got tired and start whine... espetialy hardocre gamers who want changes, however like OP mention CCP care about own product and own gamers community, i believe they do all best to us.
90% of whine posts are created by old gamers, not by newbis, because they are like in trans while playing EvE, like me long time ago...
People whine because they dont know how to break form game, they dont know how to be offline because they online for years, day after day.
Meny EvE players are more game fanatics in positive meaning, than ordinaly gamers, just because EvE offer deep intensive feelings and addiction while people play.
Ps. Sorry form my grammar. EvE isn't game, its style of living. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1804
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Posted - 2012.11.30 02:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
CraftyCroc wrote:Its simple - CCP are unable to please everyone and so tend to favour the 5000 strong alliance over the guy who flies around in a dramiel. The dramiel pilot has a right too complain My my, whatever alliance are you thinking of?
Doll etc etc Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
69
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Posted - 2012.11.30 02:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Because for years people in the game asked for things .. never happened BUT CCP work on things No one Want .. so we nicely ask instead on working on things NO one asked you for .. use that Time To work On features Players asking since ...... If you don't remenber https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6342&find=unread
We act like this because we love the game and see the potential if CCP listened to the good ideas
Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Digital Messiah
Industrial Solutions
236
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Posted - 2012.11.30 02:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
I was more talking about Crowd Control Productions, Good see the enthusiasm about EVE-Online. I understand why people propose Idea's about a game they spend so much time on. What I mean is why do people go after the developer and all of it's side projects. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.11.30 03:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:I have been playing off and on since about 2006, hey I'm not an 03 veteran. But six years is enough to peak my curiosity. Why do people talk on the forums about wasted development time, dead lines, have such hard criticism about CCP's company policies, and activity? This is the only game where I have seen players rant in such a form. Maybe it is because you feel like they listen to your opinions, which they do. Or your investment means you hold an imaginary share in the company. All in all though it is just weird, stalker'ish at some points, and obsessive. Sure I care to what they do but it is just a game developer. It isn't like they are testing eve products out on animals or pushing religious dogma.
I just want someone to explain to me why people are such hard critics to a game developer who does more for their community than any other in the business?
To answer your question and to cut to the chase...
EvE is the only MMORPG of it's type. There is literally no MMORPG that rivals any aspect of EvE, or it's complexity. Think about this: If sh*t hit the fan with EvE, where would we go? All other games seem like child's play compared to this game. EvE, while not perfect, is undoubtedly leagues above any other game at the moment.
We criticize CCP and stalk the development of the game because we love EvE. It is the only game of it's kind, and we don't want to see it die. If we didn't care about the game, or thought it was "just another video game", we wouldn't spend time in the forums ranting.
The nature of the game itself - an open sandbox - is one that must be preserved. Consumer feedback only improves the game, and the more consumer feedback, the better retention CCP will have.
About the "wasted development time" - I don't really care how long CCP takes when making something. I've only been playing for a few months so far. But I have a feeling that the EvE veterans - those 4+ year old chars - want big changes, and want them fast, to add variety to the game. After all, shooting at red crosses becomes boring eventually. |
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