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Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
246
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Posted - 2012.12.09 14:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
By what right do Minmatar loyalist capsuleers get to claim that any Minmatar outside the Republic are "not Minmatar"? I refer specifically to the one-fifth of all Minmatar who live in the Federation. Like free Minmatar anywhere in New Eden, they still organize themselves into clans, still practice the Voluval, still call themselves Minmatar while forming Federation member states based on tribal democracy. Many have lived here since the Minmatar Rebellion, those who decided to use their free will granted to them by the blood spilled by both themselves and their brethren.
This is what we call absolutism, or the tool of tyrants. The Amarrians did the exact same thing when they first enslaved the Minmatar. "You do not believe in our religion and are thus not worthy" is not that different from "You do not believe in our tribes and are thus not Minmatar". One might say you are undermining the very freedoms that many Minmatar have died for, only to replace it with a different type of slavery regarding identity. You are no different from anti-religious Minmatar who murder their brethren for following the Amarr religion, especially those recently emancipated individuals from Jamyl I's 110 edict.
If Minmatar wish to live in the Federation, that is their choice. If they wish to live in the Republic, that is their choice. If they wish to not be called Minmatar at all, that is their choice. Who are you to say whether or not they're Minmatar? Are you worried about Gallentean influence? Last I checked, Minmatar culture is thriving more than ever. I don't see any evidence to suggest the Minmatar identity is being 'subsumed' by the Gallenteans (whoever they are).
By what right do *I* have to call certain Minmatar out on this? That is simply the paradox of free speech. However, the difference is that I'm not telling the Minmatar as a whole who they are and who they should be. That is their choice. I am calling out the minute number of potential absolutists and tyrants who wish to dictate to the Minmatar in a similar vein to how the Amarr dictated to them a generation ago. |
DeadRow
Anshar Incorporated
6
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Posted - 2012.12.09 14:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
If the number is minute, why does it matter? |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
246
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Posted - 2012.12.09 14:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Minute compared to all of New Eden, granted. But this is a capsuleer forum, where we're all minute in number as it is. |
Jace Sarice
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.09 15:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
I see no problem with calling into question the loyalty of those who decide to defect from their own people, especially in a time of conflict. |
Astera Zandraki
Moira. Villore Accords
10
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Posted - 2012.12.09 15:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
How are they defecting? there have been Matari states in the Federation since the rebellion.
I am half Matari myself and I find the insinuation that my dad, who was Sebiestor in just about every way was not Matari to be bizarre. |
Jace Sarice
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.09 16:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
I was referring to what could be seen as an essential defection. If one lives in foreign lands and does not contribute to one's own people in a time of conflict, it would seem reasonable that you could be considered to have defected. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Gradient Electus Matari
4
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Posted - 2012.12.09 16:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Has anyone in particular been voicing this opinion pilot Inhonores?
I don't hold to that way of thinking myself. Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya, Diplomat for the Electus Matari alliance. |
Ssakaa
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
267
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Posted - 2012.12.09 17:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Has anyone in particular been voicing this opinion pilot Inhonores?
A good question best asked early.
"Gypsy Secora" Amun, travelling psy-chic and misfortune-teller. Cross my palm with iskies.
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Rana Ash
Gradient Electus Matari
84
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Posted - 2012.12.09 17:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
I am most curious as to whom has claimd such, Pilot Inhonores |
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
That the Minmatarr as absolutist as we are will surprise no one. It's been so for more time than any of us have lived. They just fragmented their aparent absolutism into their tribes, but are as controlled and absolute as we are. Something I'm not criticizing, of course, just agreeing with your main point. Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
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Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
12
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
I too have noticed this, Seriphyn. It is a painful shame that anyone who doesn't fall in line with the Republic's jingoistic war-drum is called a traitor. Every day I see people of Minmatar ethnicity (whetever their tribal and clan identities may be) furthering the well-being of the Minmatar people, or even all people, in ways no less important or spectacular than those of the Freedom Fighters.
The Brutor scientist living in the Federation who comes up with a cure for Vitoxin, or a way to raise many crops quickly and efficiently, is just as much the freedom fighter as the Republic-dwelling warrior in a Rifter. The fight may not be against the Amarr, but one does not always have to fight against something. One may simply fight for something, building up the people's strength and very soul. Because if our struggle is anything, it is for our very souls and identities, is it not? Are we doomed to simply be defined as "anti-Amarr", or will we rise up as equals of our own identity in the cluster? Will we become masters of our own fates, free of both human overlord and the blind fury of our tragic history? Now more than ever we must strike a careful balance between freeing our currently enslaved brethren and building a viable lifestyle and strong identity for ourselves, neglecting neither task in favor of the other. Yes, we have it tough, but not for the reasons most people think.
"We Rise to Our Future" |
Jace Sarice
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.09 19:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote: Because if our struggle is anything, it is for our very souls and identities, is it not? Are we doomed to simply be defined as "anti-Amarr", or will we rise up as equals of our own identity in the cluster? Will we become masters of our own fates, free of both human overlord and the blind fury of our tragic history?
And you accomplish your own identity and soul from within the Federation? I have no investment in this argument, but I can understand criticism that claims you cannot develop your own identity as a people by leaving or living outside of your people. |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
250
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Posted - 2012.12.09 19:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ssakaa wrote:Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Has anyone in particular been voicing this opinion pilot Inhonores?
A good question best asked early.
Seen not in these channels, but figured to pre-empt such a discussion.
As Miss Jormagdnir has pointed out, one could easily argue the Minmatar are stronger than the idea of a Republic. Is it not to a Minmatar's credit that they can live anywhere and still call themselves Minmatar? Do they need to cling onto a political construct to define themselves? I do not believe they do. This is what separates them from, say, the Caldari, who do not believe you are Caldari if you are not a citizen of the State.
The Republic is the current incarnation of the Minmatar political framework. The same can be said about the Federation for the Gallente, Intaki, Mannar, and Jin-Mei, and the State for the Caldari (as much as corporate propaganda might whitewash details about non-State Caldari nations in the Federation). Who knows, perhaps it will evolve into the New Minmatar Empire? Perhaps it might join the Federation, then proceed to dominate it economically and politically.
Either way, my impressions of the Minmatar throughout my life is that they are far stronger than having to rely on a system to tell them what to be. |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
12
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Posted - 2012.12.09 19:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:
And you accomplish your own identity and soul from within the Federation? I have no investment in this argument, but I can understand criticism that claims you cannot develop your own identity as a people by leaving or living outside of your people.
I personally do not live within the Federation. In any case, I believe you are trying to apply values here that do not fit in the cultural framework being discussed. If a clan, for example, resides within the Federation, then an individual living among their clan is still living among their people. It's not the place that matters, it's the people. |
Gottii
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
108
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Posted - 2012.12.09 19:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
I've known few Minmatar who voice this idea, even fewer of them wise or influential.
If we would shed blood and claim kinship with those Minmatar still held in the Empire, would we do less for those in the Federation?
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Marius Goudiyah
107th Suicide Kings Blinky Red Brotherhood
0
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Posted - 2012.12.09 21:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
I feel awkward agreeing with such a gallante point of view.
But I would have to say that Seriphyn Inhonores has been making rather on the mark statements lately. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Gradient Electus Matari
4
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Posted - 2012.12.09 21:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well Pilot Inhonores.
Every group has it's hotheads and fools. It is hardly a surprise that the Republic has some.
Likewise every group has something to admire. It is harder to see with some of them, but it is usually there.
If you have met some Republican fools then I hope you can spend some time here and meet some of the not so foolish. Indeed a brief perusal of your employment record would tend to indicate that you already have. Fools are best ignored or taken as a source of amusement. Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya, Diplomat for the Electus Matari alliance. |
Los Muertas
Mir'Mulnir Tribe
67
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Posted - 2012.12.10 02:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
To claim that one of the People is not of the People, or is against the People because they do not live in nor serve the Republic is Foolish sir. I put no stake in the Republic and could care less if it burns. If a Minmatar is true to their Tribes, their nationality matters not. Thesis on Tribal Traditionalism |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
2527
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Posted - 2012.12.10 08:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
I've noticed this sort of behaviour, both here on the IGS and in places like the summit. There are a lot of Republic loyalists out there who seem to have no problem painting me as a race traitor because I associate with groups their government doesn't like, and so doing relegates myself, and my entire clan, into this realm of 'other' that they don't need to consider as valid in any way. As if my associating with the Angel Cartel in any way besides shooting them completely negates my 'minmatarness' and invalidates my cultural perspective completely.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith or the devils gonna claim your soul
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Halete
Alexylva Paradox
474
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Posted - 2012.12.10 08:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
The question is not whether a self-proclaimed Minmatar in the Federation can do good for the Tribes as a whole - yes, yes, of course they can.
But, many "Minmatar" in the Federation do in-fact turn their backs on our tribal ways - these are in no right Minmatar. In this case, it is understandable to see why many would think this way. It is not isolated to a Republican way of thinking.
Then, there's the Federation itself; a dangerous, reprehensible beast, that one. Much of the Minmatar population in the Federation may appear benign, but we will see what happens when the beast rears it's head.
Do not mistake me - I do not hate the Minmatar (who are Minmatar, and who have not turned their back on the ways and on their Tribe) in the Federation, it is the Federation itself I have a problem with. I will defend to the death my brothers' right to follow the Amarr faith, but I need not like the religion.
I am surprised to see such a hostile reaction to the notion by the same hypocrites who would brand me as a non-Minmatar. I suppose we're all entitled to be inconsistent in our beliefs. Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
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Ssakaa
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
268
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Posted - 2012.12.10 11:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Out of interest, Halete, why do you consider the Federation as, as you put it, a "dangerous, reprehensible beast"?
Would you care to share? "Gypsy Secora" Amun, travelling psy-chic and misfortune-teller. Cross my palm with iskies.
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Astera Zandraki
Moira. Villore Accords
11
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Posted - 2012.12.10 12:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
I am curious to know this as well, what is so evil about the Federation in your eyes Ms. Halete? |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
474
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Posted - 2012.12.10 12:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Out of respect; I wouldn't care to share. I've already answered with my take on the topic and don't wish to de-rail the subject any further.
Fragments of my stance on the Federation are littered about these boards if you feel so compelled to discover more. Alternatively, you can speak to me. But this isn't the place, especially with the likes of Inhonores present. Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
722
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Posted - 2012.12.10 13:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Oh don't be shy Halete. Go ahead. Why do you hate us?
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Halete
Alexylva Paradox
476
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Posted - 2012.12.10 15:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Oh don't be shy Halete. Go ahead. Why do you hate us?
Bite my ****, pretty-boy.
No means no. Something that your kind would have done well to learn from the Caldari. Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
723
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Posted - 2012.12.10 15:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Halete wrote:Anslo wrote:Oh don't be shy Halete. Go ahead. Why do you hate us? Bite my ****, pretty-boy. No means no. Something that your kind would have done well to learn from the Caldari.
Hit a nerve? No need to be bitchy. You brought it up. If you didn't want to talk about it, you wouldn't have mentioned it. In that case, you're screaming for attention. So don't come at me when people ask.
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Halete
Alexylva Paradox
477
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Posted - 2012.12.10 15:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Anslo wrote: Hit a nerve? No need to be bitchy. You brought it up. If you didn't want to talk about it, you wouldn't have mentioned it. In that case, you're screaming for attention. So don't come at me when people ask.
You're wrong. We brought it up because it was relevant and went into no more detail than sufficient to answer his question.
I don't want any more attention. I asked to be shown some respect or to be contacted privately and you did not show me that decency.
Now please, drop it. Your replies feel like some strange invasion of my person and I wish the sensation to cease. Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Logan Fyreite
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
15
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Posted - 2012.12.10 15:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
I find this very interesting.
I would say I have been, hmmm, shall we say, outside of the influence of the empires for years now. But not once have I ever heard someone call me "not Minmatar." Well at least not to my face. I have also never seen it happen in the Summit on on these channels in such frequency that it requires special Seri comment on.
The whole topic seems more like political speak to me. When asked where Seri had heard these things he gave a slight and fairly worthless response that reads more like "This is just something I came up with to talk about" than "This is something that happens all the time."
Now then I am not saying that surely if anyone would have experienced this it would be me, but coming from a Sebbie like myself, with no family or Vouval mark, nor any clan to speak of, short of my genetic heritage, I would think that I would be exposed to it at some point.
I suppose it reflects on the class of persons that time is spent with. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
344
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Posted - 2012.12.10 17:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Speaking as one who was raised in the Federation I can say that I never experienced any of this "you're not a true Minmatar" nonsense that Pilot Inhonores spoke of. I've gotten plenty of racist crap from non-Matari, however.
As others have said there are idiots of all stripes living in all areas of space. To be ignorant, xenophobic or bigoted is not purely a Minmatar issue. I'd suggest that Pilot Inhonores spend less time inside the echo chamber of the Summit comm channel and more time speaking to regular people in the real world. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
4
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Posted - 2012.12.10 17:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:To be ignorant, xenophobic or bigoted is not purely a Minmatar issue.
How might it be xenophobic or bigoted to disavow members of your own kind? If you are detracting from those with a supposedly similar ancestry and identity of your own due to their disloyal actions, how is that bigoted? |
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