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Brisk Frisk
0
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Posted - 2012.12.12 12:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on these ideas.
Preface A lot of people are upset about links. Unlike most I feel that the problem with links is not what they do, it is the risk vs reward ratio. You get massive rewards for almost no risk. Often a link ship is the most valuable ship in a fleet, both in terms of isk and as a force multiplier, but it is almost impossible to punish their use. Link boats should be a viable target for the enemy, and here is how I think that could be implemented best, in terms of fairness. To keep options open to those of us who use links, and those who wish to have some recourse against them.
#1. Give link modules a sig penalty when active (like an MWD not sure on what exact percent should be) This makes it possible to probe them without having perfect probing skills, as well as probe implants. It also forces a decision on the link user, how much risk they are willing to take? Do you need to have 3 links active? Or will just 1 be enough for the current situation. Give command ships a bonus that removes the sig penalty. So they are not punished for providing on-grid links.
#2. If the ship providing links does not have kill rights (or is at war with ) the player who is being attacked by the player receiving links the linking ship will get a PvP timer and suspect flag, (NOT a weapons timer, they can still jump, or dock) meaning they WILL be attacked by sentry guns. In high sec they will receive a criminal flag. So the link character must be at war with the person being attacked, or concord will blow it up.
This serves several purposes and fixes several issues. For example, in situations such as engaging a war target in Faction warfare, if the link ship is a neutral (not in the war), it loses standings, because the ship receiving links is engaging a target that the linking character is not at war with or does not have kill rights on. Which also means that the link boats will no longer be able to sit on an undock or gate and be untouchable if the linking character is neutral. Anyone will be able to attack them because they will have a suspect flag. Gate guns will shoot them because they have received a standings loss. So if neutral they will want to link from a safe, but they can now be probed easier because of the sig penalty.
If the link character is at war they can link from a gate, but they run the risk of being tackled, gate guns will not shoot war targets trying to tackle them. (but the link ship will not have a suspect flag,or receive standings loss) so gate guns will only defend the link ship from neutral tackle not war targets.
As it is now, the link ship can just dock, or jump through a gate if threatened or attacked while linking. It is almost impossible to punish their use. (which is why most people using links in low sec just sit the link ships on a gate or undock) The gate guns defend the link boat (because it is neutral) and the people who attack the link ship lose standings, get shot by gate/station guns, and since link ships are always covert ops fit, it is extremely unlikely to catch the link ship even if the group attacking the link boat are set up on both sides of the gate. Any frigate that points them gets popped by gate guns almost instantly. This also means in high sec the linking character must be in the same corp or alliance as the ships it is giving links to or concord will appear and kill it. So the linking toon must join the war and opposing players have the ability to kill it, if they can catch it, without concord interfering.
In low sec, link users will have the choice of either keeping the link character neutral and linking from a safe spot (where it can be probed because of the sig penalty added to active links) and then tackled and killed by anyone without penalty if it has a suspect flag. Or the link user can put the linking character into the same corp or alliance as the fleet it is boosting, which means the opponents have free reign to try and catch and kill the link boat any time it is spotted, without the attackers of the link ship being punished by gate guns or standings loss, because the link ship is a war target. The link ship will not have a weapon timer, so it can still jump or dock at will.
#3. NO links should not work inside deadspace areas, unless the link ship is inside the dead space area and within 100km of the ships it is linking. This help with a lot of ganking and brawling shenanigans that occur in missions, faction war plexes, and sites.
A side affect of all this is that in many situations, a person being attacked by a link user will be able to better asses the threat against them. Link ships will either be in the same corp or alliance to share the wars,have to come inside the deadspace area or they will cause extra hassles for the link user because of standings, GCC, and danger of linking from a safe and not being on a gate to retreat.
TLDR: High sec: link boat must be in the war (or have kill rights) because otherwise concord kills you for linking someone, who is attacking someone, that you don't have rights to attack. (Criminal)
Low sec: if links are neutral, link from a safe, be a suspect, be probable. (links now have sig penalty like MWD's) OR in Low sec, if link boat is in war, link from anywhere, no suspect, be careful as hell because gate guns won't protect you from war targets.
In null sec, you can be probed easier, links must enter dead space areas to be used inside that deadspace area.
I tired to strike a good balance for links being viable, but not risk free. Links are still just as strong, but now you can be probed, now the link user will have to make some decisions that will affect their risk. Covert ops link boats will still be just as slippery as every to catch on gates, but gate guns won't be their best friend anymore.
I think that covers all the issues with links, what do you all think? Did I miss anything?
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Mexan Caderu
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.12.13 13:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Brisk Frisk wrote:I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on these ideas.
Give command ships a bonus that removes the sig penalty. So they are not punished for providing on-grid links.
Give command ships a 'stealth/mirror' mode, so that it doesn't appear on grid and on d-scan as a command ship, instead make it appear as a random class of the current present ships.
So the overview reads:
Malestrom Malestrom Malestrom Rifter Scimitar scimitar scimitar --> this is actually the command ship "Vulture" in stealth/mirror mode setting.
Of course, a keen observer will be able to visually identify the model of the ship as being a vulture, and will be able to provide a target for his fleet.
Wha? No lazy "overview tab only show command ships lol all target my broadcast 2 secs in the fight lol press F1 to kil their booster" mode ? MADNESS! I THOUGHT U WERE MAKING EVE EASIER! |
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
119
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Posted - 2012.12.13 15:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Simple solution really, Commandships need the same abilities as a booster tengu, loki etc. They also should be toughened up and be able to defend themselfs, more hit points ,more tank.
Edit: waits for the Blob fans to ***** & moan post about this now New Player retention is important to our community. |
Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
165
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Posted - 2012.12.13 15:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am tired of nerf tears .... Just get used to it ... Links are one of the things allowing to fight the numbers of blob btw. So if u support blob ... U want offgrid boost to be nerfed. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Zoe Panala
Blobcats
20
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Posted - 2012.12.13 15:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:I am tired of nerf tears .... Just get used to it ... Links are one of the things allowing to fight the numbers of blob btw. So if u support blob ... U want offgrid boost to be nerfed.
I don't even support "small gangs". But when the reality is not people using links to engage superior numbers, but using links to ensure they have superior numbers, then it is time to kill the whole thing. Especially since most OGBs are used by so called "solo pvpers" to gank a single target. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
194
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Posted - 2012.12.13 17:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
The argument that OGB allows small gangs to engage larger gangs does not defend OGB when you turn around and then use the argument that anyone can get an offgrid booster to even the playing field. That means that blobs can OGB as well and the small gang advantage is now moot. OGB is breaking the game and basically killing small gang warfare. When a destroyer can go 2500 m/s, web and scram out to 15 km or point out to 36km with 10k+ EHP the game is broken. It's not 'leet' pvp, it's golden bullet game play. I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage. Get the boosts on grid or get rid of them completely. Those are the only options that should be taken seriously. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac |
Abyssum Invocat
Justified Chaos
45
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Posted - 2012.12.13 18:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:I am tired of nerf tears .... Just get used to it ... Links are one of the things allowing to fight the numbers of blob btw. So if u support blob ... U want offgrid boost to be nerfed. Only a matter of time until this tired old straw man showed up. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
968
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Posted - 2012.12.13 21:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
as someone who uses off grid boosts a lot for both pvp and pve, i can't wait till they make them on grid only.
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Gunship
FATAL Warfare Reckless Faith
21
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Posted - 2012.12.14 09:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:I am tired of nerf tears .... Just get used to it ... Links are one of the things allowing to fight the numbers of blob btw. So if u support blob ... U want offgrid boost to be nerfed.
If this was only true,
Fact is that the OGB are used by the blobs all the time, making small gang warfare even harder.
In short off grid boosting should be removed.
Come join us for Amarr FW pvp-áaction. More info here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145548&#post2145548
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jjohnpaul xvii
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
50
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Schalac wrote:I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage.
Please CCP dont forget to also remove Plex. And all implants. Defo tech3. Probably tech2. And then maybe meta . Probably isk as well.
Only then can honourable citizens of submarine blobs in space finally get the game we all want.
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Gunship
FATAL Warfare Reckless Faith
21
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Posted - 2012.12.14 12:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
OGB need to be removed period.
It should be on-grid ,within a range (example boost is effective up to 100km from the ship) and it should be seen as a hostile act giving a boost to a ship in combat. Want your T3 boost, fine ,but bring the ship in the fight. Come join us for Amarr FW pvp-áaction. More info here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145548&#post2145548
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Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
58
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Posted - 2012.12.14 13:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
In the interim, how about this?
Give a Gang Link module the same sig bloom as a MWD, or even more. Stack it for each active gang link. Make an OGB show up on a probe scan like somebody lit off a signal flare, and make them targetable in the blink of an eye. Force them to shut down their links to evade attack, or risk having their command ship/strategic cruiser shot out from under them. |
Escomboli
Hammer Holding Wrong Hole.
16
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Posted - 2012.12.14 13:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have mentioned this before as a fix to boosting, but it should be based on how far off you are from said ships at the time of aggression. Now I am not literate in the ways of coding/game design so I am not sure how hard it would be to do that, but I assume it could be done.
You would get 100% boost if the booster was on grid at the time of agro, 50% boost if the booster was 100k-200k off, and 25% if the booster is off grid.
This would make it so people would actually want to have boosters on grid. It would also not make off grid boosting completely useless. Making off grid boosting completely useless would **** many people off as leadership skills take A LOT of time to train up, and require a remap too. Command ships, and to a lesser degree t3s, also take a very large amount of time to train. Removing off grid boosting completely would ruin a good 8-12 months of skill training for people. At least this way you get some boost if off grid, but would make people want to have a command ship in fleet/on grid.
With that suggestion I would also like to see a battleship line of command ships. Maybe give a new skill to use them called Fleet Command Ships. Require lvl 4 BS, advanced ship command 5, etc, etc. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
774
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
The long term consequences of off-grid boosting are fear and loathing.
"Those guys just blob. They're all about their OGB. I'm not going to that system."
Both sides currently use boosters. So it's silly to point fingers at one particular alliance or the other. I do believe it prevents new blood from coming in and staying. You need to understand WHY you lost a battle to learn from it. If you're slicer is run down by a 400mm plated thrasher with AC's you might be a bit bewildered as to how that happened.
I also think it's currently hurting Minmatar more then Amarr. If you know that the enemy has boosters set up across multiple systems, you will think twice before offensive OR defensive plexing in that area.... |
jjohnpaul xvii
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
50
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thats a very good point Zarnak - ''re understanding why'' - and not one id given thought to. Point completely taken.
Again > I agree that CCP should do something to OGB, i just disagree the borderline hysteria surrounding it.
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Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.12.14 16:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Schalac wrote:The argument that OGB allows small gangs to engage larger gangs does not defend OGB when you turn around and then use the argument that anyone can get an offgrid booster to even the playing field. That means that blobs can OGB as well and the small gang advantage is now moot. OGB is breaking the game and basically killing small gang warfare. When a destroyer can go 2500 m/s, web and scram out to 15 km or point out to 36km with 10k+ EHP the game is broken. It's not 'leet' pvp, it's golden bullet game play. I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage. Get the boosts on grid or get rid of them completely. Those are the only options that should be taken seriously.
This is pretty much what i think
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Anemonae Ambrosia
Royal Order of Security Specialists Late Night Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.12.15 00:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Give links a 250km range, then adjust Command Ships. Allow a Field Command to fit 1 link without hurting it's current DPS output, then allow a fleet command ship to run 3 links while producing mild dps and buff both their tanks. Seems like it would work to me |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
73
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Posted - 2012.12.15 02:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Actually just make links count as being boosted like with sensor boosters and add the effect that activating and receiving them counts as weapons activation. (Which leads to hilarity in hisec, but nice things in null) Suddenly the issue is fixed far more nicely. Oh and definitely make the command ship be the primary booster, being able to feild the most and bestest links. T3s should be the t1 of booster ships. Easy to skill in and use, inferior in all respects to the command ships. |
Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
167
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Posted - 2012.12.15 21:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Abyssum Invocat wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:I am tired of nerf tears .... Just get used to it ... Links are one of the things allowing to fight the numbers of blob btw. So if u support blob ... U want offgrid boost to be nerfed. Only a matter of time until this tired old straw man showed up.
Did i touch u somewhere? With my ship? IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
167
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Posted - 2012.12.15 21:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kn1v3s 999 wrote:Schalac wrote:The argument that OGB allows small gangs to engage larger gangs does not defend OGB when you turn around and then use the argument that anyone can get an offgrid booster to even the playing field. That means that blobs can OGB as well and the small gang advantage is now moot. OGB is breaking the game and basically killing small gang warfare. When a destroyer can go 2500 m/s, web and scram out to 15 km or point out to 36km with 10k+ EHP the game is broken. It's not 'leet' pvp, it's golden bullet game play. I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage. Get the boosts on grid or get rid of them completely. Those are the only options that should be taken seriously. This is pretty much what i think
Well no ... U need well trained toon for that and properly fited ship .... Blob can protect on grid booster ... Skirmisher cannot. So you promoting blob again. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
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Perkin Warbeck
Amarrian Space Poodles 24eme Legion Etrangere
90
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think this has been suggested before but all I think CCP need to do is clearly indicate in local which ships are boosted and also link the booster on the killmail.
So long as you know whether a ship is boosted you can, for the most part, choose whether to engage them or not and of course they should never show as a solo kill. |
Schalac
Angelic Assault
202
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Posted - 2012.12.16 03:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Kn1v3s 999 wrote:Schalac wrote:The argument that OGB allows small gangs to engage larger gangs does not defend OGB when you turn around and then use the argument that anyone can get an offgrid booster to even the playing field. That means that blobs can OGB as well and the small gang advantage is now moot. OGB is breaking the game and basically killing small gang warfare. When a destroyer can go 2500 m/s, web and scram out to 15 km or point out to 36km with 10k+ EHP the game is broken. It's not 'leet' pvp, it's golden bullet game play. I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage. Get the boosts on grid or get rid of them completely. Those are the only options that should be taken seriously. This is pretty much what i think Well no ... U need well trained toon for that and properly fited ship .... Blob can protect on grid booster ... Skirmisher cannot. So you promoting blob again. Actually, with the potential EHP of command ships and a properly fitted T3 they are safer in small skirmishes than they are in blob warfare. This is why with blob warfare you would want to use capital ships as boosters, also the reason that they were even made.
So start training core skills now because change is coming. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac |
Olerie Viliana
Devicron
2
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Posted - 2012.12.16 19:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
/FACEPALM
Did anyone even read the post?
It said nothing about nerfing the links themselves (other than them not working inside deadspace) it was just talking about making it possible to kill the link boat because it is the highest price ship and the greatest force multiplier in most fleets. This is done by making it possible to probe them while they are linking, or forcing them to have the same WT's as the people it is linking. So the links can't just sit on undocks and at gates and be defended from tackle by gate guns.
The problem with link boats is that they are untouchable in low sec, and high sec. You don't always know if they are even being used.
THE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE UNTOUCHABLE, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO KILL THEM OUTSIDE OF NULL SEC. YOU GET MASSIVE REWARD WITH ZERO RISK! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
677
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Posted - 2012.12.16 20:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Olerie Viliana wrote:/FACEPALM
....
THE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE UNTOUCHABLE, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO KILL THEM OUTSIDE OF NULL SEC. YOU GET MASSIVE REWARD WITH ZERO RISK! tl;dr needed in original post, tbh. |
Thomas Gore
State Protectorate Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2012.12.17 10:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
What is this OGB faggotry and whoever came up with the idea?
Next up we are probably going to be able to boost other ships while docked. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
302
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Posted - 2012.12.17 11:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
there is nothing wrong on OGB, everyone can use them so no need to cry. |
Thomas Gore
State Protectorate Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2012.12.17 11:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:there is nothing wrong on OGB, everyone can use them so no need to cry.
True that. So maybe the "fair" word should be removed from the topic, as there is nothing unfair involved.
Maybe the question is, why does it exist? What purpose does it promote?
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Dewa Cinta
painkiller.
1
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Posted - 2012.12.17 16:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Schalac wrote:The argument that OGB allows small gangs to engage larger gangs does not defend OGB when you turn around and then use the argument that anyone can get an offgrid booster to even the playing field. That means that blobs can OGB as well and the small gang advantage is now moot. OGB is breaking the game and basically killing small gang warfare. When a destroyer can go 2500 m/s, web and scram out to 15 km or point out to 36km with 10k+ EHP the game is broken. It's not 'leet' pvp, it's golden bullet game play. I thought that EVE players were against gold ammo. Yet here we have everyone and their mother defending buying advantage. Get the boosts on grid or get rid of them completely. Those are the only options that should be taken seriously.
But if you are a small gang that has links, you can pick your fights to only fight blobs that don't have links. If the blob also has links then just don't fight. |
GreenSeed
91
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Posted - 2012.12.17 21:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
wrong thread, disregard that #%$% #$% . |
DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
23
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Posted - 2012.12.18 02:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
lol at the people butthurt about OGB. just because someone running with a booster alt doenst make it not solo. They're still fighting with ONE ship its just their ships capabilities are boosted to help them out when fighting outnumbered.
Being -10 it's a ***** finding decent fights that i can even consider in the first place to try and take on. My booster alt is basically the only way to allow me to even get close to taking on upwards to 5-1 odds and even then ill still only get maybe one kill if im lucky. its the only way to stay competitive in todays PvP. Either get blobbed with bonuses and try to get a few kills or never undock because you cant do ****? sounds ******* awesome right?
The only thing i would agree with is the percentage of bonuses that t3's are giving out. atm they're pretty OP. swap bonuses for t3's and command ships for 3% and 5% respectively, and buff CS's tank so they are more viable on roams and on gates but still keep them offgrid but remove ability to boost within POS bubble.
Want the strongest bonuses? Cool, pick up a command ship and fit it how you like, either zero tank 3-4 link offgrid booster thats ridiculously easy to probe down or a super tanked 1-2 linked high dps monster. Need something more agile for small gangs? fit up a t3 with one or two links with decent tank and mobility or go the current cookie cutter t3 with 3-4(tengu can run 5 easily, lmao) links and zero tank for offgrid boosting OUTSIDE pos bubble that can still be probed down and killed.
Boom baby, dats balanced.
only thing i can see happening of removal of OGB is a mass exodus of alts unsubbing because they're worthless insta-primary'd shiny km's.
that's all i have to say until we hear more about ccp's plans for tech3 and command ship reworks.
-carb |
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