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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
8
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Posted - 2012.12.12 13:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
For public dissemination, 12/12/114. To be relayed dirtside across all available channels, and to be brought to the attention of the intergalactic capsuleer community.
Hello.
This message goes out to the State's disassociated and dissenters.
You are not alone.
Whilst I may be fiercely loyal to our State, and I do believe it to be the greatest empire in all of New Eden, I appreciate that we have a lot to learn.
The Big Eight afford us good, comfortable lives. Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality.
The State sees a high rate of suicides and incredibly grim prospects for it's homeless. Many would call both of these types of people failures, and dishonorable. I argue that this is not the case; many of these are strong, productive citizens who simply have different desires and deserve more than the selfish, lazy and the dangerous.
We should be putting an end to the suffering of those who take their own life. In this regard, their Megacorporations are failing them.
We should be demanding more rights for the class of Caldari who have fallen through the cracks and in many cases don't even have their own families to look to for support.
Don't think that the disowned are the problems of the Megacorporations once they're gone?
Open your eyes.
The Megas are exploiting our homeless; once they are no longer corporate assets, they become wild-cards who operate in the grey areas of Megacorporate laws. These become loadjacks working jobs far too dangerous for a citizen, or pawns in inter-corporate back-stabbing games.
Open your eyes.
Many people that this message reaches will not be one of the unfortunates that I speak for. Many of you will not even be aware that this is a problem. The State presents a healthy outwards face. And yes, we are strong, but there is a disease that ebbs at our roots that we must eradicate.
We cannot afford to ignore the reality of this problem any longer.
We must act now, for a stronger State.
We must speak as a united, unequivocal voice to be heard.
Disassociated, disaffected, disowned; regardless of what you call yourself, regardless of any other beliefs that you may hold, agree together on this.
A stand must be made.
...
You can't stop the signal.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.12.12 13:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
You can't make a good salad with rotten tomatoes. Leave rejects be where they should be: outside of business. If you are planning on incorporating weaklings back into corporate structure, you are doing it not for stronger State, but for weaker. Thus your actions could be regarded as a threat to national security. Think twice. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
105
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 14:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would say there is a reason the disassociated are in the position they are in and that is primarily due to a failure of duty and a breach of either corporate or State law.
Are you seeking to act as advocate for criminals who have betrayed the CEP and the State?
I must admit, the thoughts presented are rather convoluted and vague. Speak out and act against whom exactly? The State? The Corporation? Caldari citizens who abide by the law?
Why should it be an issue if the disgraced take their own lives in order to regain some degree of honour in death?
Why should mercy and compassion be shown for the failures of society?
Why not permit relevant authorities such as the Caldari Providence Directorate to handle matters of State labour and employee-employer relations with the due diligence they require?
You are correct though, the disassociated and dissidents are a disease upon the State, am I to assume you shall present a proactive solution to the problem? Kaalakiota Corporation. Caldari Providence Directorate.
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Misha M'Liena
Rainbow Waffe
1434
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Posted - 2012.12.12 14:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hmmm interesting.
Here's a couple ideas. You could, note i said could. Send them to the gallente to care for them. Or since your a state that is corp run, sell to the Amarrians, And make a profit.
Misha. Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó -á |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
392
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 15:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is in fact a State-wide not-for-profit work agency called Second Chance that I donate to. Their approach is to find the destitute, homeless and forlorn and offer them a chance at redemption.
How many chances they get is a function of how they lost their place in the system. Addicts, criminals, debtors and the catastrophically incompetent get one shot at starting their lives over. They're counselled on their mistakes, educated, and given the opportunity to start back up the ladder. If they fall off again in the same way, they're written off, and rightly so.
Where Second Chance does its best work is with the ones who fell off the ladder through no real fault of their own. The ones made bankrupt because of their superiors' failures, who were left stranded when a transport got blown up, who were stuck on a mining colony that lost funding, who fell victim to nepotism, who were fired for the non-crime of homosexuality, or whose deadspace venture fell prey to rogue drones, pirates or trigger-happy capsuleers. They have infinite patience for these poor souls, so long as their fall was genuinely a product of forces they had no control over.
Their greatest success story concerns a young man who was fired without references when he refused to fellate his line manager. He is now en route to be a megacorporate director, and is the charity's most high-profile donor.
It's a noble venture, and sums of money that are negligible to a capsuleer allow them to do a lot of good work. It strikes me as the perfect balance between salvaging citizens who really will be an asset to the State, and not rewarding failure. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.12.12 15:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm not completely sure I understood you, but I think you are thinking around traitors to the State, to a different degree. If I'm wrong I apologize.
But if I'm right, there is only one way of dealing with traitors, disenters and other problem rising people: death. If they take their own lives, that's some work they save your State. If not, your police should be the ones doing it. All degrees of traitors should disapear, and every nation around the cluster deals with them one way or another to make sure they cause no damage.
Death is possibly the best way, and also the most humane, as keeping them alive for years in prisons serves no purpose to them and only extends their missery. And expelling them from the society, tribe, social group they belong only makes them more eager to look for the enemies of said group to "correct it". There is nothing wrong with a good death penalty for said traitors. Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
220
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Posted - 2012.12.12 16:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ya know... we can take them off your hands for you if you want. We'll make sure they get food, shelter & plenty of on-the-job vocational training.
Before you freak out what I'm actually talking about is this new idea we've been trying lately - indentured servants. A nice little compromise between your way of doing things and ours. A simple contract to make them into servants for a predetermined period of time. During that time they'll get the things I just mentioned - food, shelter, medical care, and all that good stuff that comes from having a proper Holder. They'll get a nice solid foundation in which to get their crap together and learn how to be productive citizens. Once their contracted time is up they'll be free to go again... and hopefully with better prospects than when they came in. But if not, eh, they can always renew their contract if they still can't hack it on their own.
What do you say? EvE Forum Bingo |
Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is absurd. If they have become disassociated, it is for a reason. If they are criminals, they should be punished or cast out appropriately. If they have failed to exist within our system, they do not deserve a place in the system. As you said, the State has the highest standard of living in the cluster. We have it because we reward hard work and acumine. We do not reward failure, we should not reward failure, and we should not concern ourselves with people who are failures. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
106
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Ya know... we can take them off your hands for you if you want. We'll make sure they get food, shelter & plenty of on-the-job vocational training.
Before you freak out what I'm actually talking about is this new idea we've been trying lately - indentured servants. A nice little compromise between your way of doing things and ours. A simple contract to make them into servants for a predetermined period of time. During that time they'll get the things I just mentioned - food, shelter, medical care, and all that good stuff that comes from having a proper Holder. They'll get a nice solid foundation in which to get their crap together and learn how to be productive citizens. Once their contracted time is up they'll be free to go again... and hopefully with better prospects than when they came in. But if not, eh, they can always renew their contract if they still can't hack it on their own.
What do you say?
I would say no.
Even a Caldari who finds themselves outcast and disassociated is not a human commodity to be traded, bartered or indentured to foreigners as nothing more than unpaid labour. The individuals who find themselves in such a position in the State should still be afforded some degree of dignity and self-respect, for that at least is something even if they have nothing. They are a concern of the State and their lives are the responsibility of the State and its citizens.
The whole concept of preying on the vulnerable in such a fashion is abhorrent.
Kaalakiota Corporation. Caldari Providence Directorate.
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
296
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Ya know... we can take them off your hands for you if you want. We'll make sure they get food, shelter & plenty of on-the-job vocational training.
Before you freak out what I'm actually talking about is this new idea we've been trying lately - indentured servants. A nice little compromise between your way of doing things and ours. A simple contract to make them into servants for a predetermined period of time. During that time they'll get the things I just mentioned - food, shelter, medical care, and all that good stuff that comes from having a proper Holder. They'll get a nice solid foundation in which to get their crap together and learn how to be productive citizens. Once their contracted time is up they'll be free to go again... and hopefully with better prospects than when they came in. But if not, eh, they can always renew their contract if they still can't hack it on their own.
What do you say?
You are referring to bondable employment contracts, I believe. We use these already, they are a good alternative in many cases. I have a bonding clause in my own contract, in fact. If you are interested in employing individuals from the State, I'm certain that there are numerous avenues to take. I can direct you to some HR agents if you like. |
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
107
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:You are referring to bondable employment contracts, I believe. We use these already, they are a good alternative in many cases. I have a bonding clause in my own contract, in fact. If you are interested in employing individuals from the State, I'm certain that there are numerous avenues to take. I can direct you to some HR agents if you like.
I would say any HR agent foolish enough to attempt in inserting a bonding clause between a Caldari and a foreign agent deserves to be rolled up in a heavy rug and thrown over the nearest bridge.
Kaalakiota Corporation. Caldari Providence Directorate.
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nikulainen-haani;
I'm a little confused. I wasn't going to reply to this at first, as your message claimed to be for the disassociated and homeless, which I am not. Reading further, though, it seems to also address the common Caldari as well. I will answer in that regard.
There are many reasons for losing ones place in the order, and many are unfair. These unfairly displaced citizens are an untapped resource for the State and their suffering is needless. Hakatain-haan's investment is a sound reply to this problem,though I would suggest that the charitable foundation model is unsustainable and should be replaced with a standard model when possible.
My question to you is: what are you proposing? You point out these issues, which is a good thing to do when done through proper channels, but you make no statement on how to move forward. What do you suggest? |
Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
There appears to be a slight miscommunication in terms here. Are you all referring to bondable in the sense of literal servitude, or merely an extended employment contract with breach of contract clauses? |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
835
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
There is a language barrier.
The Amarrian is referring to putting people into slavery.
Scherezad is referring to bonded contracts. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Scherezad wrote:You are referring to bondable employment contracts, I believe. We use these already, they are a good alternative in many cases. I have a bonding clause in my own contract, in fact. If you are interested in employing individuals from the State, I'm certain that there are numerous avenues to take. I can direct you to some HR agents if you like. I would say any HR agent foolish enough to attempt in inserting a bonding clause between a Caldari and a foreign agent deserves to be rolled up in a heavy rug and thrown over the nearest bridge.
There are numerous foreign companies in operation in the State, and many Caldari workers gainfully employed outside of our borders. This is a good thing - it brings greater diversity to our workplace and more resilience to our models. Bonding contracts need not be undignified. I am in wholehearted agreement that no HR agent should form a disgraceful contract between a foreign company and a Caldari, and any that would should lose their license for the act.
There is no shame in bonded work. It can in the best of cases be a cleansing, illuminating experience. |
Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
If we are simply talking about contracts with surety bonds, I'm not sure why there is even a discussion. Surety bonds are incredibly commonplace in business. If on the other hand, Scherezad is referring to some other concept when speaking of "bonded contracts," it would be helpful if she elaborated. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:If we are simply talking about contracts with surety bonds, I'm not sure why there is even a discussion. Surety bonds are incredibly commonplace in business. If on the other hand, Scherezad is referring to some other concept when speaking of "bonded contracts," it would be helpful if she elaborated.
I'm no contract lawyer, so am hesitant to pursue this route too deeply. I don't mean slavery, I'm referring to surety bonds, to the best of my knowledge. |
Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 17:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
In that case, this is an entirely different concept than indentured servitude. Servitude implies the inability to withdraw from a contract, the free will to renegotiate a contract, and frankly the use of the word "contract" is incredibly misleading when referring to indentured servitude.
A bonded contract is not to be mistaken with the notion of being "bound' to someone. Someone involved in a bonded contract merely has a third party involved to supply a surety bond to guarantee the fulfillment of services by the second party. This is a standard and widespread arrangement where any work requires extensive work by contractors and subcontractors.
Indentured servitude, on the other hand, has intense moral questions that must be asked. It is not merely a business arrangement, despite how some try to describe it. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
I see! I will have to review the bondage clause of my contract, perhaps I have misread it. Thank you. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
922
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hmm. You sound remarkably like a political activist, Nikulainen-haani. That is not a good thing.
I hope for your credibility's sake that you're not just flapping your jaws on the IGS. Surely, you've been leveraging your wealth as a capsuleer for the betterment of these social groups? Perhaps you should start a company and begin making the necessary change yourself? Who knows, some day you could be the founder of the Ninth Megacorporation.
This is not the Federation. You know as well as I do that our people respond to action, not words. If you want to see change, you must create it instead of demand it. |
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
255
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's sad the expression "The strong should protect the weak" never caught on in the State, instead replaced by "The strong should weed out the weak". I find the inability and/or refusal for the Chief Executive Panel to modernize the Caldari fascinating. Because the Caldari descend from a harsh planet that demands a survival of the fittest approach, then that is how the Caldari should be governed for the rest of their history. I find that redundant, now that the State owns many different planets with climates that are far more comfortable, never mind the fact that modern technology no longer requires a social selectionist approach.
It is tragic, really, that the Caldari will see the world as "Caldari" and "non-Caldari". Humans are the same, in the end. The Federation was founded on that assumption (read; assumption), but the Caldari megacorporations had different ideas.
Of course, this humanitarian ideal of the strong protecting the weak in the Federation is frequently corrupted by absolutism. Take the Blaqueists, who adopt an Amarr-esque "The strong shall guide the weak", seeing those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity. Then there's the Rodenites, who also adopt a social selectionist ideal in the context of personal enterprise, and that "The strong will triumph over the weak".
It's all rubbish, in the end. Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical Roden- or Caldari-style philosophies. I hope one day the Chief Executive Panel realizes that they no longer live on Caldari Prime, and that planet is now just one of many. At the same time, those in the Federation must work to eradicate any and all instances of absolutism, if we are to expect all of humanity to realize the relative nature of mankind. I hope the above pledge by Miss Nikulainen makes people aware that no system is perfect. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
394
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
To a Caldari, the morality of what you just wrote seems to be 100% backwards.
You have to remember, we spent centuries as a survivalist culture. Maybe certain ethical instincts were preferentially selected for. All I know is that I read your post in much the same way you might read the idea that women should be confined to the kitchen, naked and pregnant, and should be beaten if they stray outside of it.
We're different cultures for a reason, after all. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jace Sarice
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:It's sad the expression "The strong should protect the weak" never caught on in the State, instead replaced by "The strong should weed out the weak". I find the inability and/or refusal for the Chief Executive Panel to modernize the Caldari fascinating. Because the Caldari descend from a harsh planet that demands a survival of the fittest approach, then that is how the Caldari should be governed for the rest of their history. I find that redundant, now that the State owns many different planets with climates that are far more comfortable, never mind the fact that modern technology no longer requires a social selectionist approach.
It is tragic, really, that the Caldari will see the world as "Caldari" and "non-Caldari". Humans are the same, in the end. The Federation was founded on that assumption (read; assumption), but the Caldari megacorporations had different ideas.
Of course, this humanitarian ideal of the strong protecting the weak in the Federation is frequently corrupted by absolutism. Take the Blaqueists, who adopt an Amarr-esque "The strong shall guide the weak", seeing those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity. Then there's the Rodenites, who also adopt a social selectionist ideal in the context of personal enterprise, and that "The strong will triumph over the weak".
It's all rubbish, in the end. Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical Roden- or Caldari-style philosophies. I hope one day the Chief Executive Panel realizes that they no longer live on Caldari Prime, and that planet is now just one of many. At the same time, those in the Federation must work to eradicate any and all instances of absolutism, if we are to expect all of humanity to realize the relative nature of mankind. I hope the above pledge by Miss Nikulainen makes people aware that no system is perfect.
While your attempts at anthropological psychology are amusing, they fail to provide any substantial criticism of our way of life - which works incredibly well. If you prefer to promote relativity and hazily dismiss our way of life based upon a pseudoscientific notion regarding the environmental nature of our homeworld, feel free. We prefer to promote a realistic view of the world that demands results while simultaneously valuing our culture and traditions. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
351
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 21:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I would say there is a reason the disassociated are in the position they are in and that is primarily due to a failure of duty and a breach of either corporate or State law.
As Hakatain-haan and Scherezad have pointed out, there is plenty of other ways to "fall into the cracks" which do not involve failure of duty or violating the law.
One of the most common is probably unemployement, like in any nation. |
Alizabeth Vea
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 21:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them. |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 22:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them.
And replace them with what, exactly? Enlighten us all, please. Also, if the fifth empire you're referring to happens to be the Jovians, then I do indeed look forward to you attempting such a feat.
In regards to the original post, my sentiments can be echoed by my colleague, Oniseki-haani. For example, my State citizenship wasn't just handed to me all willy-nilly. I had to earn it (in my case, through service in the military). True, some people may fall into the abyss for reasons beyond their control, but then that is why agencies such as the one Captain Stitcher mentioned exist. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
108
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 23:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:As Hakatain-haan and Scherezad have pointed out, there is plenty of other ways to "fall into the cracks" which do not involve failure of duty or violating the law.
One of the most common is probably unemployement, like in any nation.
Prior to the rise of Heth-haan to the position of State Executor it is true, many corporations in the State sought to adopt the Gallente style corporate models of maximizing profits at the expense of the rights of workers who were treated as mere commodities like they are in the Federation. However, the issue is well known, and ensuring adequate employment for those who did "fall into the cracks" before is a prime concern of the Caldari Providence Directorate through its Corporate and Labour reform programs.
The real issue as I see it, is that even with the adoption of some institutionally flawed concepts within certain corporations, it is still particularly difficult to fall into the cracks in the State unless one deliberately seeks to do so through their own actions. As such, the concern today is to differentiate between those who should rightfully bear the burdens of their own actions and those who were the victims of institutional flaws.
Kaalakiota Corporation. Caldari Providence Directorate.
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James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
65
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Posted - 2012.12.13 00:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
[quote=Quinzel Nikulainen
Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality. [/quote]
Madame Nikulainen.
I would be very interested to see your data set related to the above mentioned quote.
The last time I checked the State economy was on Imperial life support.
Respectfully. J.S. "We are what we do." |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
108
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 00:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:"Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality."
Madame Nikulainen.
I would be very interested to see your data set related to the above mentioned quote.
The last time I checked the State economy was on Imperial life support.
It might have to do with the fact that in comparison the State remains the most urbanized nation in the cluster and even with a greatly smaller population than either the Federation or Empire is still able to match or achieve just below parity economically through the maximization of productivity levels brought about by adherence to strong meritocratic principles and the efficiency of our corporate traditions and doctrines.
As such it's simple economics. We produce more with less people and those people enjoy a higher standard of living on average comparatively than either the Federation, Empire or Republic due to the State system. Kaalakiota Corporation. Caldari Providence Directorate.
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Alizabeth Vea
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
4
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Posted - 2012.12.13 04:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Korsavius wrote:Alizabeth Vea wrote:Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them. And replace them with what, exactly? Enlighten us all, please. Also, if the fifth empire you're referring to happens to be the Jovians, then I do indeed look forward to you attempting such a feat.
I would replace them with nothing. Turn them into null security systems and let the capsuleers run them as they please. If they are poor at administering their systems, other capsuleers will replace them. Get rid of CONCORD while we're at it. We, capsuleers, are the ultimate power in the Cluster. If justice needs to be administered we will do it. I will probably expand this idea in its own thread, rather than clutter this one. |
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