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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Gevlin
Dropbears with Kebabs SpaceMonkey's Alliance
196
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Posted - 2012.12.21 15:25:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Two step wrote:Yay, so very excited about this.
Thanks also for addressing *all* of the concerns the CSM had with the previous version, including adding that condition to the Force Majeure clause... :) Oh wow. The CSM has taken action over the past six months? What else have you guys done?
I feel this is a troll
Following the lines on what have you done for me................lately.
Keep up the hard CSM Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Marl Shawn
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
3
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Posted - 2012.12.21 19:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quote:1.9. GÇ£PlayerGÇ¥ means a registered user of the Game in good standing. ... CCP's blue list must be huge. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
581
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Posted - 2012.12.21 19:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Marl Shawn wrote:Quote:1.9. GÇ£PlayerGÇ¥ means a registered user of the Game in good standing. ... CCP's blue list must be huge.
They joined HBC. |
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CCP Seagull
C C P C C P Alliance
31
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Posted - 2012.12.21 23:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
I'm monitoring all the questions in this thread, and will work with our legal counsel to come back with answers after the holidays. So far the three main topics we need to clarify/address is how and what you can charge for, the source code access question, and the bits about hiring, but I'll also make sure we answer other questions that have come up. Thanks for your feedback and input so far!
/CCP Seagull Technical Producer CCP Games Reykjavik |
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Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
170
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Posted - 2012.12.22 02:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
Somone can explain in short how this new development affect all of us ? i mean what things it give in reality even in theory.
EvE mods? More programs like EvE moon, eft etc? EvE isn't game, its style of living. |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
25
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Posted - 2012.12.22 02:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
All I have to say about the new CREST Api is this.
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
582
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Posted - 2012.12.22 04:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
So excuse me if I spam a few things now I have a little bit more time to go through it.
Quote:2.2. For the sake of clarity, Developer may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application
To what extent, if any, does this apply to data such as the existing SDD sets? If an existing applicable extends itself with CREST functionality would this content now fall under such protection? This is written very broadly. I could understand the need to limit the distribution of certain, limited content such as documentation on security scheme implementations.
But would this for example prevent a feature to export, let's say standings, or market data to CSV? This data would therefore be removed from the application in and of itself and become independent. I can't forsee this is what anyone intended with this, but it's a resulting effect all the same.
Quote:2.8 upon written request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code
I know this one is already being looked at by the lawyers, presumably. As I already mentioned, this is written in such a way to be as broad as possible, giving the developer no rights at all to protect their code. "Including but not limited to source code" could potentially mean anything ranging from helper classes used to interface with the API, through entire applications, their supporting databases schemas and possibly even data (!).
A little over the top in my reading you might say? Well, part B and C of this clause seem to disclose the motive behind it. It is not about protection of the underlying technology, rather it is about them enforcing the license and as such is much more likely to be used.
An audit and compliance tool, rather than a mechanism of protection. It is entirely conceivable this clause would be used in conjunction with a bulk mail to simultaneously call in the full application stacks of anything which uses CREST for review.
As I've said before, that's not something I would accept, doubly so in its current boundless form. With the exception of any API toolkits CCP provides, my source code is proprietary, and I will not be compelled to share it unless I am suitably convinced of a need, guaranteed its protection, or paid a significant amount of money for the privilege.
IMO it would be fine for CCP to expect, given fair notice, to be provided with details on how certain functions work. This should be at a high level and should be limited to specific, focused inquiries. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
582
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Posted - 2012.12.22 05:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
Quote:4.1. Developer shall not require the payment of any fees or other amounts in exchange for a PlayerGÇÖs access or use of the Application, its functions, or its content (including, without limitation, fees payable for unlocking or providing access to premium content).
So I'll come out and point out the obvious.. by definition "premium content" implies some form of premium. Otherwise it wouldn't be.
So, this is obviously a big one for those of us who have considered investing a lot of time and effort into developing third party applications based around EVE. Such a clause mandates that we cannot expect reasonable remuneration for our work from those which we provide our applications or services too.
It hugely disincentives developing with it. Time is valuable. The time I spend programming can and will be spent working on something else if I cannot benefit from it in some way, and as a result CCP ends up not benefiting from third party application developers.
Quote:6.3. Not withstanding any other provision herein, should Developer fail to respond within twenty four (24) hours to any three (3) e-mail requests in a row from CCP, which shall be sent over a period of no less than ten (10) days, CCP shall have the option of suspending the ApplicationGÇÖs ability to access the Game and the Game Data, as well as any other works or materials of CCP in CCPGÇÖs possession.
10 days is less than 2 weeks, i.e. less than a short holiday. 14 days would be preferable for this.
Quote:12.13. Governing Law. This License Agreement is made under, shall be governed by, and shall be construed under the laws of the State of Georgia
CCP is headquartered in Iceland. CCP's legal council is based in Iceland. CCP's server services are provided from London.
Why exactly would we be signing up under the laws of a third party country which has no jurisdiction to either? |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
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Posted - 2012.12.22 08:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Quote:12.13. Governing Law. This License Agreement is made under, shall be governed by, and shall be construed under the laws of the State of Georgia CCP's legal council is based in Iceland. Just out of curiosity: how do you know this? I'd assume it's entirely possible that their legal counsel is at their office in Atlanta, which incidentally happens to be in the State of Georgia.
And it would make sense: If you already have an office in some country you want to make best use of the people's mentality there and employ them in fields for which they are famous and known to be unscrupulous *cough* weasel-like *cough* crafty, that's what I meant to say. *puts on fireproof suit* |
Ambo
I've Got Nothing
40
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Posted - 2012.12.22 08:16:00 -
[70] - Quote
Having re-read everything, it seems there are now no plans whatsoever to allow developers to charge for their apps.
When the original anouncement was made (over a year ago now?) I thought the whole point of the dev licence was to allow us to charge for third party apps. As a consequence, I started working on a new version of my application that I intended to charge real money for.
Having spent over 500 hours of my free time on this over the last year or so, finding that I can no longer charge anything at all would be... Disappointing.
Obviously the original version was very much a draft proposal. I'm just surprised that such an apparently key part of it has been dropped. Especially after what happened with capsuleer. |
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
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Posted - 2012.12.22 10:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Just out of curiosity: how do you know this?
Their company is founded and registered there, with the majority of its staff there.
But they also give it as the address to contact their legal team:
You may refuse to transact business with us at any time in the future by notifying us in writing and sending such notice to: CCP hf., Grandagardur 8, 101 Reykjavik, Iceland, Attention: General Counsel. |
Risingson
30
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Posted - 2012.12.22 10:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
Anyone knows the reasons for not allowing us to charge for apps anyway? Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Eveeye.com Bordcomputer Systems |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
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Posted - 2012.12.22 12:23:00 -
[73] - Quote
Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
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Posted - 2012.12.22 12:29:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all.
Automatic payments and contracts, which I believe will be the single biggest use for CREST once the functionality becomes available. |
Balder Verdandi
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
84
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Posted - 2012.12.22 13:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Seagull wrote:I'm monitoring all the questions in this thread, and will work with our legal counsel to come back with answers after the holidays. So far the three main topics we need to clarify/address is how and what you can charge for, the source code access question, and the bits about hiring, but I'll also make sure we answer other questions that have come up. Thanks for your feedback and input so far!
/CCP Seagull
Trust me, I can understand about protecting IP ...... I've had the displeasure of being compliant of this in my present job.
But what you're asking doesn't protect the third party developer's IP, and you might ask your legal department about making sure you (CCP) won't be violating someone else's IP.
I don't stab people in the back. -áWhen you do, you miss the look on their face and that's priceless.
Long live the failure known as "Unified Inventory"! |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
19
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Posted - 2012.12.22 13:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Rob Crowley wrote:Risingson wrote:Also what about gambling sites? thats a pure profit concept by nature. Which part of CREST would a gambling site use? I don't really see why it would require write access on your API data. I'm not even sure why it would require any access to your API data at all. Automatic payments and contracts, which I believe will be the single biggest use for CREST once the functionality becomes available. Oh right, you got a point there. I didn't consider that applications might want to use CREST only for the application owner, but not for users. I think I'll leave now before the discussion starts if a gambling bet is (partly?) a fee. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
583
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Posted - 2012.12.22 13:43:00 -
[77] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Oh right, you got a point there. I didn't consider that applications might want to use CREST only for the application owner
Setting up CREST credentials will probably be a difficult affair. I would not be surprised if the majority of early CREST keys were application-specific, filling a particular role for one application, typically web based.
Take the standings API. I expect that, within a couple of weeks of launch, major alliances will be using CREST based web applications, integrated with their existing forums and external permission systems, to manage and audit their standings. These will typically use one authentication key (a director of an executor) but act on behalf of multiple users. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
42
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Posted - 2012.12.22 23:03:00 -
[78] - Quote
open source vs proprietary, open source wins imo, so much talent in the world that can be creative that the community can use.
this proposal is a new rebalancing of ccp of the api services (the $99 was charged not to be cost effective but still wtf), still shame there is some grey area's, tbh if it weren't for 3rd party developers this spreadsheet game would be very difficult to play by uninitiated, gues we need to see the Silver Lining in this. Eve Radio |
shadygirl
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.23 14:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
HARD STEEL wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:[quote=HARD STEEL][list] Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable. Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspendedRL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app. I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time. Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute. Frankly who cares for your money? You dont like it than dont code. Nobody is forcing you to code anything for EVE. So please take your profit making moaning to somewhere else. Like there isnt already enough grief on eve forums... On one side you want to be allowed to make profit but on other side you want to use CCP resources/products for free? I didnt see in any of your posts something you would be willing to pay to CCP for access to new API.Once they will be charging you for xy% from your profit than this may work (and I would be ok with that). But I see no reason why should CCP allow someone like you to make profit from their universe for free.
And next time instead of making fun from guys that made clearly huge service to eve community go to your clown school instead.
You want money? Get a job.
Personally I appreaciate that CCP put there this clause and insuring that apps for their games will be free.
Also would be nice if CCP would prefer/require developers to use either opensource, or provide code to CCP for review to assure that users (or ccp itself/servers/infrastucture) wont be endangered by malicious developer. As the 2nd option would clearly incur huge effort/cost on CCP side I guess opensource is way to go here. Althought CCP keep this 2nd option in play (as highlighted by Sentient Blade) I still think it would be just too big effort for them to review source codes for zilion apps.
just my thoughts |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
584
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
I'm pretty sure that shadygirl is either woefully uninformed, or just trolling... I suspect the latter, but I'll humour the post and reply.
Who cares for money? Simply put anyone who wishes to be rewarded in some tangible way for the time that they invest in creating such programs. I have been a developer for around 10 years now and have produced a variety of software designed to integrate with third party producs and services, much of which I dual licensed, and I am quite familiar with investing many hundreds or even thousands of hours of development time into pieces of software and to be frank, even when making something cool, the "coding high" doesnt last forever, and it's good to know you're going to get something out the other end of staying up for 18 hours in a row trying to debug some obscure error rather than just throwing in the towel.
The reason I claim you may be woefully missinformed is that the whole point of creating APIs and Frameworks around your platform (CCPs in this case) is to build an ecosystem of third party tools which are available to your users to enhance your product, at no per-application development cost to yourself.
CCP stands to profit from the production of CREST (and the API) otherwise they simply would not have made it. These third party tools will make their platform more accessible, and easier to use. They stand to benefit a great deal indeed. Such APIs are most often given away for free to get the biggest possible gain from their time investment in building the API.
Requiring open source simply is not going to happen. It's a cloud cuckoo land to imagine that is ever going to be the case for more than a small percentage of all software, and I also take exception from you claiming it improves security. Unless third parties were to validate every single line of code for every binary or script released for usage then you're still trusting whoever put it up, what's to say someone did not put in a backdoor prior to compilation? 99% of people are not going to go and compile their own applications, and what with the way that I suspect most of these applications will work, they're certainally not going to set up and maintain their own extensive codebases, databases and resources.
So CCP should first get the simple one out of the way; charging ISK for access to services should be allowed. It's a well established pattern with existing EVE related tools such as killboards, forums and route planners etc.
Charging real world money for it? Well, unless CCP wants to build its own payment system for creating licenses for third party sofware, and have contractual terms saying all payments have to go through them (Think Apple) then that's a non-starter too, really. They would be much better off coming up with a series of constraints and limits on sale (i.e. default maximum fees) to keep things sensible, if the product is not good enough, people simply won't pay for it, or will use an alternative. If people are willing to pay for it then it must add enough value that CCP probably should be dropping them a mail asking them for some kind of deal.
In summary:
* People want the opportunity to gain from their time investment.
* CCP is giving it away for free because that's what is most profitable for them. |
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shadygirl
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.23 19:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
That was not a trolling attempt. I just expressed my opinion on hard steel's demand for profit. Imho CCP is right to not allow outright profit. Though they allow donation which is fair. If he (hard steel) is programmer and is looking in a way to make money he should find other project/job.
I will just stop here as I have no intention to drag this thread down as it serve other purpose. I just felt it needs to be said in contrast to what hard steel said. Thats all.
Fly strange |
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
13
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Posted - 2012.12.24 22:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:CCP stands to profit from the production of CREST (and the API) otherwise they simply would not have made it.
I am very glad I do not live in your world.
Because in my world, people tend towards making things for the benefit of a target group, if not everyone, and it is the desire to improve the experience of those people that drives development, with profits coming in as a reality check that limits what can be done with the available resources.
[economic rant] Sure, many people, such as your self, put profits first, and the quality and capability of the product, and the well being of the customer, second. This is why we not only have the CoD and BF series of mindlessly entertaining titles, among others, but why there are so many horrible products out there in general, that only just barely meet the requirements they were intended to, not to mention it is why many economies are in ruins. In theory and practice, the "Profits First" mentality fails, horribly, being sustained simply by government subsidies and bail outs, with taxpayer money. [/economic rant]
While CCP will benefit from creating tools that strengthen the community, if you think that is the ONLY reason they have done it, or even the primary reason, then I pity you for being so cynical.
If CCP was more concerned with making money than creating their product or providing services to the community, they would have removed the open, player driven economy, made it impossible to attack anyone else in Highsec at all, and done numerous other things to water EVE down into something that average casual couch jockey would pick up and play.
Instead they have stuck to maintaining a game that is still challenging to play, not to mention code, balance, and maintain, listened to, and implemented, player feedback, and generally been a hell of a lot better than most other developers of any genre of game when it comes to doing things for the players benefit, at the cost of an even larger bottom line that they could have gotten by doing something else.
So I want to thank you CCP for giving the community these tools, and for placing more value on improving your game and building the community than your profits. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
593
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Posted - 2012.12.24 22:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
There's so many things ignorant, contradictory and just plain wrong in the above post I don't even know where to start. |
Hienz Doofenshmirtz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2012.12.25 11:09:00 -
[84] - Quote
Question, do we know yet what kind of information Crest will provide for Dust514 players? I know this is probably not the best area to ask in, and that answering it might not be allowed. However, it'd be nice to know for a project I'm working on. |
Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
14
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Posted - 2012.12.27 02:50:00 -
[85] - Quote
I am fine if CREST starts with limited features and restrictive terms of use. The sooner it get deployed, the better.
However, I hope we will soon get looser terms of use for internal corp/alliance/coalition application/wer site. A corp might have different people working on different apps that might need to share data with each other. It would be a shame if those apps had to stop sharing data or pass on using CREST/Single Sign On. |
Karanar
DeathByDestruction
0
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Posted - 2012.12.27 11:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
The fact that we cannot charge for access to anything we build with the API is very disappointing. I was intending to create a very large web application using the API that would total thousands of development hours with myself and another developer, but if we cannot even collect a small fee if necessary to cover our costs and development time then it is just not financially viable to spend so much development time on.
I hope CCP will reconsider letting thirdp arty developers charge for the hard work they put into making tools for the game.
Also for any Devs, the [email protected] email address is not accepting mail.
Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:
[email protected] Your message can't be delivered because delivery to this address is restricted
If you would like the full email headers please drop me a PM. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
21
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Posted - 2012.12.28 15:00:00 -
[87] - Quote
I didn't mean to troll and get people upset - my point was the rules of this ecosystem is win/lose/win (ccp/3rd party devs/the public). Lose being rules against us being able to bill for memberships and profit from our work - given enough time real-life will over-ride all ambition for us building things for EVE. Personally I'd LOVE to build an EVE app, build a team and put some hardware behind it.
Another variable I'd like to point out is, with the last posters comment about the legal email not being setup, the duration of time thats passed since this was announced at fanfest and my gut reaction after reading the API documentation - I'm getting the feeling not much effort is going into CREST - at least on the public side. I say this as someone who has read the API documentation for pretty much every major web service project from Amazon Webservices, Microsoft CRM, Salesforce.com and the wide range of Google APIs.
Perhaps the team is working on the internals right now but seriously, how many people are allocated to this and how important is the CREST project to CCP? ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3530
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 09:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'd have some questions:
1) How can I deal with not accepting RMT, EULA breaking ads?
None of us small time developers have their own advertising network so we have to rely on Google Ads and similar.
The RMT and EULA breaking ads spawn continuously and there's a limit on how many can be blacklisted. Even on prominent "legit and known good" sites like Chribba's EvE search those ads may appear.
If you want to help apps developers you should provide some CCP made ads wedge / filter with the ability to cut off the offending ads that don't suit CCP's standards.
2) Is there a provision to provide markets polling or pushing / queue subscribing? The current way is to (ab)use of the in game cache and upload data on third party sites for further processing and relay. This is quite intrusive, borderline gray area as for the EULA is concerned and many more other burdens.
3) CCP, out of everyone should know how life is a cold, harsh sandbox. If you want to get out the part time hobbyst 3rd party apps status you should create a revenue scheme for professional developers that makes it worth investing time in developing EvE apps. Make it something of a "opt in gold app membership" where, out of a possible same developer apps pool, the developer may choose some for gold membership, involving:
- for the developer the ability to charge - for CCP the ability to claim a developer revenue percentage (CCP can monitor how many apps get bought or even create a mini-Steam) or a license fee. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
45
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Posted - 2012.12.29 10:14:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:However, I hope we will soon get looser terms of use for internal corp/alliance/coalition application/wer site. A corp might have different people working on different apps that might need to share data with each other. It would be a shame if those apps had to stop sharing data or pass on using CREST/Single Sign On. From a legal perspective, corp and alliance mates can't really be treated differently than any other players, so I wouldn't expect looser terms in that regard.
I agree it would be a shame to pass on data sharing or CREST, but maybe there's a workaround for that, especially if the different apps are made corp/alliance internal by people knowing each other to some extent: Just bring the apps under one roof and declare them one app (which isn't that far of a stretch if they share data anyway). Different people would still work on different parts of the new big app, so it's just a change in overall organization. Probably inconvenient compared to now but it should be legally sound. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
59
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
I cannot wait to get a hold of CREST. However, can you pretty please add the player's/corp factional warfare affiliation to one of the CREST resources? I'd really really like to update some websites to deny access once a corp leaves militia. It is currently a PITA to manually check the 10's of corps/alliances to make sure they didn't leave militia. QCATS is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180
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