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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
40
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Posted - 2011.10.19 18:44:00 -
[121] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:uglybass wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I don't know which is better for a Drake.For a Cyclone, t
Base Armour Damage - 172.8
, eg. drake with kine) ...
I'm not sure what you are getting at...? You realize sleeper armor is omni-tanked yes? You can fire whatever missiles you want from a Cyclone, they will do the same damage.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
36
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Posted - 2011.10.19 22:26:00 -
[122] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:
I'm not sure what you are getting at...? You realize sleeper armor is omni-tanked yes? You can fire whatever missiles you want from a Cyclone, they will do the same damage.
I understand that.
I am getting at the points which he didn't read. CSM - Do you think? You see if they ruin high sec and WHs, you are ripping the newbie uterus out of EVE and feeding it to the big alliances. When it is gone, they will starve and die. |
Arronicus
Beyond Divinity Inc Excuses.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.20 05:11:00 -
[123] - Quote
I think this entire topic is completely undermined by the fact that the topic author never actually bothered to look at the ship bonuses of the drake. It is truely painful to see that she tries to draw comparisons between the drake and the cyclone, a tier 1 battlecruiser to a tier 2 battlecruiser, with the drake having in some instances, propulsion mods (At which point said drake pilot should just fit warp core stabs and call it a day), but more importantly, unbonused weapons.
Please please please PLEASE do a tiny bit of reading next time, before starting a balance topic, on the ship that you are claiming needs a balance. Any drake comparison worth reading will have Kinetic missiles loaded, and ONLY kinetic missiles loaded, for the sake of damage comparisons versus sleepers, as there is no bonus to using EM, and in fact, there are penalties (in terms of 5% per level) to using anything but kinetic. Also, noone is going to throw a dread guristas invul on a drake. You claim that your dread gurista's active tank drake is still cheaper than a tengu; it isnt. A tengu can do a better job in almost all regards, in the situation listed, for cheaper, by a few hundred million.
Learn the drakes tier Learn the drakes missile bonus Revise any fittings with active tank, over 200mil in mods, or lowslot propulsion mods. Retry arguement. |
Berendas
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.20 07:38:00 -
[124] - Quote
The Drake is overpowered. The sheer amount of EHP/ shield regen it can get while still maintaining strong dps and excellent range completely outclasses all other BC's in terms of tank/damage. Add in the fact that it's shield tanked and that makes it faster than armor BC's. Just go out to low sec and see, half the ships you'll run into are Drakes because they completely dominate small gang warfare.
-- I know that this was a thread started with discussion on the Drakes PVE applications (where it is still far and away better than all other BC's) but the same things that make it OP there make it OP in PVP. The tank, the damage, the range, all with little to nothing sacrificed.
The Drake needs a nerf, the current state of Drakes Online makes this pretty clear. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is in denial and doesn't want to lose their solopwnmobile. I try not to make such heavy handed statements regarding ship balance but the numbers don't lie. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
9
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Posted - 2011.10.20 08:08:00 -
[125] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Drake is overpowered. The sheer amount of EHP/ shield regen it can get while still maintaining strong dps and excellent range completely outclasses all other BC's in terms of tank/damage. Add in the fact that it's shield tanked and that makes it faster than armor BC's. Just go out to low sec and see, half the ships you'll run into are Drakes because they completely dominate small gang warfare.
-- I know that this was a thread started with discussion on the Drakes PVE applications (where it is still far and away better than all other BC's) but the same things that make it OP there make it OP in PVP. The tank, the damage, the range, all with little to nothing sacrificed.
The Drake needs a nerf, the current state of Drakes Online makes this pretty clear. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is in denial and doesn't want to lose their solopwnmobile. I try not to make such heavy handed statements regarding ship balance but the numbers don't lie.
i dont know what trolling numbers you use but you failed at the point you called drake solopwnmobile :D
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Auracon
The Tuskers
0
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Posted - 2011.10.20 08:24:00 -
[126] - Quote
Drakes are a nice ship for small fleets, but so are canes, harbys, and myrms. In general the BC line is is well thought out and balanced. Moreover, each BC is unique and does not duplicate with other BCs. Each also takes a unique set of skills to really shine.
Drakes have: range high ehp possibly more mobility than armor BCs
but lack: diverse damage types DPS! really high mobility or good active tanks
If you want to balance something, try looking at ECM, supercaps and less viable ships (retribution, eagle, and ashimmu spring to mind). |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
40
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Posted - 2011.10.20 08:53:00 -
[127] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Drake needs a nerf, the current state of Drakes Online makes this pretty clear.
Hurricanes are more popular than Drakes by virtually every measure. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
39
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Posted - 2011.10.20 16:45:00 -
[128] - Quote
PLEASE, please, please read the thread. Even the just the original post a little.
Tier 2 are hardly ever used. I am no longer saying nerf the Drake but buff them. They are *battle* cruisers.
Mfume Apocal wrote:Berendas wrote:The Drake needs a nerf, the current state of Drakes Online makes this pretty clear. Hurricanes are more popular than Drakes by virtually every measure.
Except for the PVE measure, half the game ... which you have no stats for? CSM - Do you think? You see if they ruin high sec and WHs, you are ripping the newbie uterus out of EVE and feeding it to the big alliances. When it is gone, they will starve and die. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
41
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Posted - 2011.10.20 17:49:00 -
[129] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Except for the PVE measure, half the game ... which you have no stats for?
No BC is actually good at PvE, either they're tank is too weak (Harb, Cane) or their practical DPS too low (Drake, Myrm) to the point where you'd be better off in a under-skilled BS than a competently fit and flown BC. But I suppose if your purpose while PvEing isn't to make actual isk, but to sit there tanking rats solo, Drakes are pretty OP.
If you want to talk about OP (as in making a disproportionate amount of isk for SP and isk invested) ships for PvE, look at the Tengu chain-farming C6s, sanctums, etc. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
39
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Posted - 2011.10.20 17:53:00 -
[130] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:... I suppose if your purpose while PvEing isn't to make actual isk, but to sit there tanking rats solo, Drakes are pretty OP. ...
Drakes are your little Tengu. Corp member made 400M last night doing a C3 in a Drake. CSM - Do you think? You see if they ruin high sec and WHs, you are ripping the newbie uterus out of EVE and feeding it to the big alliances. When it is gone, they will starve and die. |
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Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
19
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Posted - 2011.10.21 09:22:00 -
[131] - Quote
Quote:Try taking that drake into a C3 or up and see just how far you get...... Actually drakes can solo C3's, slowly.
Drakes are probably a bit too much "bang for the buck" both in pvp and in pve. That said your a lot better off in a BS or SC for running C2-C4 why would you waste an account on a drake? |
Kitt JT
Crimson Empire. Nulli Secunda
2
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
I fly all the caldari boats with good skills. The drake is not overpowered. Yes, it is a very versatile ship, but it has drawbacks. The drake can: Fit decent dps (about 450 with HML's, 550 with HAMS, no drones both cases) AND, Fit a good buffer tank (about 100k ehp). Fit **** dps (about 250 with HML's) AND a great passive regen tank.
But it has inherent drawbacks. For pvp, it is a shield tanker. Shield tank means you must sacrifice tank for versatility (prop mods, ewar, etc.) It uses missiles! This is still a major drawback for all missile boats for pvp. At anything over 30 km or so, you start to land 1 volley to every 2-3 or even 4 volleys of a turret ship. Its slow as hell.
For pve, you can either fit your awesome passive tank, or fit damage mods. Since pve revolves around killing the most stuff in the least time, this obviously sucks. It means you can't take advantage of EITHER your full damage OR your full tank without either other ships, or compromising one severely.
The drake is incredibly well balanced. It is an excellent counterpart (or counterpoint) to the hurricane (as caldari and minmatar are arguably the best races for cruiser size pvp). The harbi isn't terrible, but don't forget that amarr dominate the battleship realm of pvp. The myrm is good if used right, but also keep in mind the gallente have a firm hold over capital pvp, and are very good contenders for being superior at frigate sized pvp as well.
The hybrid and assault ship ballance this winter will level the playing field a little, but as it stands, it's pretty well balanced. Balancing through diversity is better than balancing through uniformity. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
43
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Posted - 2011.10.24 00:35:00 -
[133] - Quote
Kitt JT wrote: For pve, ...
... resist tank + damage mods. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Amaldor Themodius
Ascetic Virtues
4
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Posted - 2011.10.24 04:52:00 -
[134] - Quote
Drake does not need a nerf.. its a good vessel to be sure but its one of the few caladri ships that are worth flying.. let them have a great performer in the Drake they need something.. |
bloodlust priest
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.10.24 12:32:00 -
[135] - Quote
Amaldor Themodius wrote:Drake does not need a nerf.. its a good vessel to be sure but its one of the few caladri ships that are worth flying.. let them have a great performer in the Drake they need something..
the argument that its caldaris only good ship is a reason to buff caldari, i would love to fly the cerb again but too many caldari ships are just too niche or just bad. the drake is too powerful for a battlecruiser and needs a nerf |
Aesiron
Squadron 1
2
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Posted - 2011.10.24 13:54:00 -
[136] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Drake is overpowered. The sheer amount of EHP/ shield regen it can get while still maintaining strong dps and excellent range completely outclasses all other BC's in terms of tank/damage. Add in the fact that it's shield tanked and that makes it faster than armor BC's. Just go out to low sec and see, half the ships you'll run into are Drakes because they completely dominate small gang warfare.
-- I know that this was a thread started with discussion on the Drakes PVE applications (where it is still far and away better than all other BC's) but the same things that make it OP there make it OP in PVP. The tank, the damage, the range, all with little to nothing sacrificed.
The Drake needs a nerf, the current state of Drakes Online makes this pretty clear. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is in denial and doesn't want to lose their solopwnmobile. I try not to make such heavy handed statements regarding ship balance but the numbers don't lie.
No the Drake isn't overpowered since it's DPS is awful. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
21
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Posted - 2011.10.24 14:07:00 -
[137] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Drake is overpowered. The sheer amount of EHP/ shield regen it can get while still maintaining strong dps and excellent range completely outclasses all other BC's in terms of tank/damage. Add in the fact that it's shield tanked and that makes it faster than armor BC's. Just go out to low sec and see, half the ships you'll run into are Drakes...
...and the other half are Hurricanes.
Nerf all tier 2 BCs. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
45
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Posted - 2011.10.24 14:25:00 -
[138] - Quote
Aesiron wrote: No the Drake isn't overpowered since it's DPS is awful.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I don't fly a Drake myself but with an all T2 set up and some cheap implants - resistance tanking, I make a fit with two Ballistic Controls T2, 7x Heavy Launchers T2 64 541 eHP 225 sustained, 522 re-enforced defences per second 548 DPS (not over heated) 2845 per volley
Having no faction mods and being a T1 ship for that little ISK - is there any ship with that much tank and DPS?
Gypsio III wrote:
...and the other half are Hurricanes.
Nerf all tier 2 BCs.
Buff Tier 1 battle cruisers. Remove all the triers actually, let us just have Tech 1, 2 and 3.
Make the normal cruisers better for their designed purposes. They are cruisers. Not *battle* cruisers. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.10.24 14:54:00 -
[139] - Quote
I don't feel that the drake needs to be Nerfed, honestly it is a little overrated. The passive fit works for every tier II BC pretty much (I don't fly Amaar). Myrm gets comprable tank and slightly better DPS. 'Cane (so long as you are willing to trade some SPRs for Gyros) comes out with less tank and a lot more DPS. Nothing against the Drake, flying one right now. FOFs 'cause guristas are broken. My real concern with the new BCs is that they could make a lot of BSs completely obsolete. I heard they are going to up the gun size. Unless they change the re-charge on shields for class what we will end up with is passive pocket BS's. Which honestly would make the game a little less interesting not more. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
52
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Posted - 2011.10.26 00:56:00 -
[140] - Quote
*Bump* CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
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Noisrevbus
4
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Posted - 2011.11.05 22:12:00 -
[141] - Quote
Arbiter Reborn wrote: sorry but 750 dps with 80k ehp is pretty insane
You do realize you essentially ruled out all the tier 2 BC's there, right? |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
48
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Posted - 2011.11.05 22:45:00 -
[142] - Quote
Wait...are you saying a Drake can run C2 sites easily? You do realize you can do most C2 anoms in a PVP fit hurricane painlessly and faster than a pve fit drake?
Most of the people I say are complaining are about how the drake can keep range. GOOD! Learn to ******* do something besides sitting at zero and shooting someone next to you. This game is more than just gate camping and brawling at zero. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
106
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Posted - 2011.11.06 01:52:00 -
[143] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:You do realize you can do most C2 anoms in a PVP fit hurricane painlessly and faster than a pve fit drake?.
Warping in and out? Using limited cap boosters? Those ships hit hard, you need a solid tank. I just get along by hugging the battle ships so that only their missiles hit me. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
IIPrimaryLotusII
Army of Space Monkeys Damned Nation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.06 06:40:00 -
[144] - Quote
Ok... skimmed through the thread and saw something about comparing fits between a cyclone and a drake, something about a battleship not being able to take on a drake, and just in general that the drake is OP.
Put on those shield extenders and rigs, and you will get HIT like a BS except you have fail DPS. Your all EFT warrioring the drake, but your not taking other numbers into consideration. Comparing an armor tanked pvp boat to a passive/buffer shield tank you have to consider that the armor tanked ship does not take penalty to SIG RADIUS. The drake will in fact when fit with the massive 100k buffer/passive tank which you speak of, flys slow as molasses and also has a sig radius HIGHER than ANY battleship.
In fact with the buffer fit drake, your sig radius is so high that you start getting worried about taking more damage from capital ships than a standard armor fit battleship would.
Also, comparing the Hurricane to a Drake.... do you realize it's impossible to kill a decent hurricane pilot in a buffer fit drake? Hurricanes are freaking fast, they will be able to dis-engage with no issues whatsoever. Put a buffer or passive drake in a situation where they are going to die, and you have a 99.9999% chance of getting popped. A battleship will lock you in a second and also be able to out-run you easily.
Buffer tank drakes aren't as safe as you think, they are actually sitting ducks in many circumstances. You are thinking purely in terms of DPS and TANK where there is much more to the game than just those two things.
By the way, a hurricane can fit a great armor buffer tank, a MWD, 2 WEBS, a SCRAM, plus 2 MEDIUM NEUTS, and still do some pretty sick dps. By the way the only cap being used are MWD, WEB, and SCRAM so it can cap out a Drake and get away with it.
Like someone else said, the drake is actually balanced fair for PvP, in fact it's one of the only balanced Caldari ships for PvP. With a more balanced fit the drake can actually use a MWD, POINT, and one SMALL NEUT and still be able to actually put out strong dps and a very decent tank.
Just remember a BS will lock and kill you without any issues because of the high sig radius. If you are willing to fly this OP OMFGBBQ BUFFER DRAKE just be wary that people can fly circles around your ass and a BS will sit on you and fart in your face while killing you.
One more thing, for those that think missile dps is projected 100% to targets because they don't have tracking penalties think again. Missiles have explosion velocity and also explosion radius which acts very similar to the limitations on turrets tracking and signature resolution. In fact, the statements like "omg it can hit out to 70k it's a l33t sniper too" is rediculous. Yes missiles can have good range but they are terrible for sniping because a) you will hit for little damage no matter what range if your missiles are too big... and b) some guns (cough artillery) can do **** tons of damage from long ranges to smaller targets without having to wait for the missiles to get to the target. It's instantanious damage, and in extreme cases, an artillery fit tempest/maelstrom can kill a TENGU fit with an ACTIVE tank in a single volley. Tell me that's not OP and minmatar needs to be nerfed, a freaking 700m+ ship getitng killed in 1 shot by a battleship costing around 100m.
From my perspective nerf drake threads come across as either trolls or someone that doesn't understand what limitations and benefits of the different tier 2 battlecruisers. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
82
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Posted - 2011.11.06 07:24:00 -
[145] - Quote
IIPrimaryLotusII wrote:Tell me that's not OP and minmatar needs to be nerfed, a freaking 700m+ ship getitng killed in 1 shot by a battleship costing around 100m.
you can do the same for less isk with an arty apoc |
IIPrimaryLotusII
Army of Space Monkeys Damned Nation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.06 07:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:IIPrimaryLotusII wrote:Tell me that's not OP and minmatar needs to be nerfed, a freaking 700m+ ship getitng killed in 1 shot by a battleship costing around 100m. you can do the same for less isk with an arty apoc
No doubt, pve tengu is a juicy target at the very least will be a nice boost to killboards even if it doesnt have 1b+ of mods to loot. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
116
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Posted - 2011.11.06 12:02:00 -
[147] - Quote
The thread got around to the point of saying that Tier 1 needs a boost so that we have eight instead of two to four options. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
2
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Posted - 2011.11.06 15:52:00 -
[148] - Quote
I should say that thread makes me sad, because drake as a ship is fine. What is not fine is some other BC's that need some changing - I will not speculate how, because I have a perfect t2 drake and I was flying on alt a perfect shield Hurricane in WH space farming.
The end story is that despite the drakes ability to tank and do some good damage, it preforms in C2 worse than a good Hurricane. I was able to make anomalies 1.5-2 times faster on a Hurricane than on a drake. The reason is that Hurricane kills frigates with ease. Drake has to fire 5-7 precision missiles to make that frig pop. Crusers also are killed faster, but the difference is not so big. Besides, Hurricane should speedtank. Ofcourse it will be underpowered if you stick in it tons of resists, shield extenders and so on. Speedtanking Hurricane is much more powerfull and does more DPS than a drake and effectively better - just don't stick modules witch make it's signature twice as bigger as it's own :)
A PvP drake with reasonable fitting is not so powerfull as it seems, it's just that people tend to make them be tanks, fit less damage mods, rigs are pure shield extenders and so on.
So it should be other BC's to be changed, rather than changing drake so that it becomes some invalid. Try fit HAM drake, not HM - good luck with tanking that one. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
119
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Posted - 2011.11.07 03:45:00 -
[149] - Quote
Psihius wrote: Drake has to fire 5-7 precision missiles to make that frig pop. Crusers also are killed faster, but the difference is not so big..
Grouping your launchers are you?
Can your hurricane handle C3s? How about when it is speed tanking and gets webbed by five frigates in a Mag site in the C2 - how well does it do then? Drakes can do C3s and they can do them with T1 launchers / missiles and such. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
79
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Posted - 2011.11.07 04:50:00 -
[150] - Quote
It' should be the most obvious issues when it comes to balancing, that the tier 2 BCs are performing way better than they should. The reason so many are against nerfing these ships are probably due to them being easily accecible and popular GÇô everybody and their dog is using them. We don't have pilots that are stuck on the T1 cruiser level, complaining about how the cane and the drake obsolete a bunch of ships in their wake, because the step from cruisers to Bcs is so very small.
The lack of support for a nerf does not however make these ships balanced. And no, buffing tier 1 Bcs is not a sollution. When the introduction of 4 ships make a fleet of old ships obsolete GÇô you adress the 4 new ships GÇô not the fleet of ships. |
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