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James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good evening.
In a recent conversation I said the following.
James Syagrius wrote:
But I don't wish to argue with you. Arguments rarely solve problems.
Perhaps we would be better served in discussing how short of the destruction of one or both of our civilizations this conflict can be ended once and for all.
That is the conversation I would like to have.
We were of course referring to the current conflict between the State and the Federation. It would seem my sentiment was ignored.
Those familiar with this conflict well know who did what to whom, when they did it and what whom did to who in response.
I would like to have a serious, sensible dialogue regarding the possibility of an end to this most un-civil of wars, without resorting to the usual recriminations. Acknowledging that I am as guilty as any in this failing.
Is such a dialogue even possible, or is the need to be "right" greater than the desire for peace? "We are what we do." |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
171
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 06:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Peace should be the natural state of affairs between the Federation and the State and peace could be bought so cheaply!
All the Federation needs to do is withdraw the threat to seize Home and work sensibly to safeguard the rights and needs of the remaining Federation citizens that live there. You already said, quite sensibly, that short of an attack on the CalNav taskforce guarding Home, the orbital bombardment threat would never be carried out. Open up lanes of transit to State shipping so that the Homeworld could be supplied and connected to the rest of State space and everyone wishing to travel there could do so.
Once that's done, all that needs to happen is a discussion of precisely how the current Border Zone needs to be policed and to make the signing of peace apply to the Minmatar Republic too.
Then we could get on with the business of economic prosperity and security cooperation to deal with threats like the Serpentis, Gurista and the Sansha. |
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 06:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's not only a matter of being right or wrong, it also has to do with making up for all that was sacrificed, all that was lost, all that could be gained and all that was put in the balance. It has to do with simple things as duty, honor, pride and arrogance. In the end, there is only two ways for a war to end: either one side is victorious, or both are defeated. Death can only be repaid in kind, once it has been summoned on such a scale. Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 06:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
What we are talking about is ego, and the need to have that ego stroked. Can we Caldari ever have our ego mended, even with the Home World now back in our grasp, and can the Federation ever maintain theirs with an alien task force in their home system? What sacrifices would the Federation be willing to make to have peace when their ego is so bruised and what reasonable middle ground would allow the State to maintain its new found high point?
So many, on both sides, only find validation in the death of the other, too many in fact judging by the Summit crowd. Can a peace ever be reached when such people still live, and if those people are immortal, how many life times of blood will it take to sate that appetite? |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 08:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: All the Federation needs to do is withdraw the threat to seize Home and work sensibly to safeguard the rights and needs of the remaining Federation citizens that live there..
A measured proposal. I thank you Msr. Tuulinen
So only by accepting the aggression can we hope for peace? A high price indeed. Is there nothing the State need do? Or do you hold it innocent in this affair? "We are what we do." |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
179
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 08:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: All the Federation needs to do is withdraw the threat to seize Home and work sensibly to safeguard the rights and needs of the remaining Federation citizens that live there..
A measured proposal. I thank you Msr. Tuulinen So only by accepting the aggression can we hope for peace? A high price indeed. Is there nothing the State need do? Or do you hold it innocent in this affair?
I do not ask for an apology nor for reparations for sins past, Msr Sygarius. Nonetheless, it should be abundantly apparent that any solution to this situation that doesn't recognise Caldari rights to our homeworld is no sort of solution at all. You can convince me to accept any wise resolution you can dream up, but if it doesn't satisfy the desires of the State's Citizens to breathe the free air of their once-lost homeworld, it will not last.
I know my proposal appears one-sided, but I'm hoping it'll form one half of the solution.
What does the Federation need? |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
504
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 08:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Getting the Federation to work for peace is quite easy: The first casualty of war is personal freedom.
Getting the State to work for peace is also quite easy: Dead people make for lousy customers. EvE Forum Bingo |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 10:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
The logcial conclution would be to let the people of the planet vote, have both sides monitour the elections, if the planet should stay within the federation or go back to the state, to my calculations, its the only solotion that can stop this war and solve it in a civiliced manner... This said, i think Gallante fears that the State would try to force the issue on other worlds if they could get away with this one |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
179
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 10:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fey Ivory wrote:The logcial conclution would be to let the people of the planet vote, have both sides monitour the elections, if the planet should stay within the federation or go back to the state, to my calculations, its the only solotion that can stop this war and solve it in a civiliced manner... This said, i think Gallante fears that the State would try to force the issue on other worlds if they could get away with this one
To be fair, only one world is the Caldari Homeworld. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
370
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 11:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Good evening. In a recent conversation I said the following. James Syagrius wrote:
But I don't wish to argue with you. Arguments rarely solve problems.
Perhaps we would be better served in discussing how short of the destruction of one or both of our civilizations this conflict can be ended once and for all.
That is the conversation I would like to have.
We were of course referring to the current conflict between the State and the Federation. It would seem my sentiment was ignored. Those familiar with this conflict well know who did what to whom, when they did it and what whom did to who in response. I would like to have a serious, sensible dialogue regarding the possibility of an end to this most un-civil of wars, without resorting to the usual recriminations. Acknowledging that I am as guilty as any in this failing. Is such a dialogue even possible, or is the need to be "right" greater than the desire for peace?
Convenience and political ambitions might be more accurate words than righteousness or wisdom here. Ideology is only the sugarcoat and what drives the masses, be them Caldari or Gallente. Special interests and oligarchies are your true enemies, if you really are looking for peace.
Propaganda and cultural ideologies can be wringed, bended to the will of leaders if the need arises.
Fey Ivory wrote:The logcial conclution would be to let the people of the planet vote, have both sides monitour the elections, if the planet should stay within the federation or go back to the state, to my calculations, its the only solotion that can stop this war and solve it in a civiliced manner... This said, i think Gallante fears that the State would try to force the issue on other worlds if they could get away with this one
Voting is a gallente procedure. What you are asking is that the Caldari side accepts and validates democracy in the decisionnal process, which they probably do not share. |
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Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
1979
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 14:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Since my opinions are simply disregarded as mere rhetoric. I have a simple yet elagent solution, Which will make both sides go up in flames.
Simply divide the planet in half for ten years. One side Gallente and one side Caldari. Who ever has the best population, economics and best structure, like schools hospitals etc, wins the planet .
Yes i know. I'll be called names. I probaly deserve them.
Misha. Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó -á |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
189
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Misha M'Liena wrote:Since my opinions are simply disregarded as mere rhetoric. I have a simple yet elagent solution, Which will make both sides go up in flames. Simply divide the planet in half for ten years. One side Gallente and one side Caldari. Who ever has the best population, economics and best structure, like schools hospitals etc, wins the planet . Yes i know. I'll be called names. I probaly deserve them. Misha.
That is a bit like suggesting that the Amarrian and Minmatar conflict could be resolved by dividing up some putative space and at the end of it awarding victory to the side that had built the best churches.
The State does not employ the same goals as the Federation. Mere comfort is not our lodestone. I lived in bachelor Barracks for years before my rise as a Capsuleer, because we opt to slightly lower our standard of living in order to improve the overall economic condition of the State as a whole.
Remember, we are not fighting over the Luminaire system, we are simply talking about who has the right to Home, the Gallente who invaded it or the Caldari that were born there, forced to leave and then took it back. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1034
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 20:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Peace can be achieved at great cost to both sides, and not through war.
1.) Total sovereignty, governance, and access to Caldari Prime must be given to the State. That is not negotiable in any manner, but the following part is.
2.) A new corporate force under the direct authority of the Chief Executive Panel will be formed to ensure the security of the Caldari homeworld. This task force will not be a division of the Caldari Navy, as Caldari Navy elements operating within Federation space is risky at best. Using standard Caldari Customs vessels, this task force will operate only to ensure the immediate orbital space around Caldari Prime is kept secure, and will defer to Federal jurisdiction outside the maximum orbital altitude of 60,000km. Federation Navy or Customs vessels trespassing within the 60,000km orbital border would be considered a possible act of war. Negotiation on the details of this section is likely.
3.) Tibus Heth must step down from power, restoring the balance of power among the Eight. His obvious hatred of the Gallente people will only serve to continue this war.
4a.) The Low-Security regions of Placid, Essence, and Verge Vendor will fall under the sovereignty and governance of the Gallente, without Caldari Occupation. All Caldari megacorps operating in these systems will be forced to recognize Gallente law and regulation.
4b.) The Low-Security systems of Black Rise and The Citadel will fall under the sovereignty and governance of the Caldari. All Gallente corporations and citizens operating/living in those regions will submit to the authority of the Caldari State or face deportation.
I imagine both sides will want more than what's included in this... but peace requires one of three things... Victory, Surrender, or Compromise.
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James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 21:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kraven Fawkes wrote:What we are talking about is ego, and the need to have that ego stroked. Can we Caldari ever have our ego mended, even with the Home World now back in our grasp, and can the Federation ever maintain theirs with an alien task force in their home system? What sacrifices would the Federation be willing to make to have peace when their ego is so bruised and what reasonable middle ground would allow the State to maintain its new found high point?
So many, on both sides, only find validation in the death of the other, too many in fact judging by the Summit crowd. Can a peace ever be reached when such people still live, and if those people are immortal, how many life times of blood will it take to sate that appetite?
I understand your sentiments Msr. Fawkes and I must admit that I share many of them.
I was once told by a very wise Ni Kunni missionary to the Federation, that if you scratch any sin you will find pride. Something of which we seem to have in abundance.
However I believe it is incumbent upon us, for ourselves and our posterity, to try.
If nothing else perhaps we can learn to speak to, not at each other. "We are what we do." |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 21:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I know my proposal appears one-sided, but I'm hoping it'll form one half of the solution.
What does the Federation need? I cannot speak for the Federation Msr. Tuulinen, I am a private citizen and not even a military man, so my opinion matters little. But the content, tone and tenor of your response gives me great hope.
Need was a wise choice of phrase indeed. What I, one man, but perhaps representative of some part of the Federal citizenry needs is simple trust.
We need to be able to trust you and you need to be able to trust us. Trust I think that this is where we need to start and what we need to build. Trust.
For what its worth Msr. Tuulinen I understand your need for home. "We are what we do." |
Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
1986
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
You compared my solution to a single planet to a conflict involving hundreds of planets? And here i thought i was the crazy. Would your solution work. If given a chance probaly not. But i't'd be fun to watch and place bets who shoots first.
Now Mr Pieter Tuulinen, back to my solution. It is a start of trying to solve the differences. It would be a competition of sorts. Ok you say that the average citizen doesn't want splendor and excellant living conditions. That they want to live in squalor and dorm housing. I think your off your meds but you might be right. *Coughs-bs-Coughs* Sorry something in my throat.
So find something that you can build to rival what the Gallente build.
Unless of course your saying that you can't.
Misha. Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó -á |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ma'dame Oniseki thank you for your suggestions on how peace might be achieved. I appreciate your willingness, considering your status within the State, to participate in this conversation in such a detailed way.
I will answer your points as best I can from the perspective of a private citizen.
Katrina Oniseki wrote: 1.) Total sovereignty, governance, and access to Caldari Prime must be given to the State. That is not negotiable in any manner, but the following part is.
2.) A new corporate force under the direct authority of the Chief Executive Panel will be formed to ensure the security of the Caldari homeworld. This task force will not be a division of the Caldari Navy, as Caldari Navy elements operating within Federation space is risky at best. Using standard Caldari Customs vessels, this task force will operate only to ensure the immediate orbital space around Caldari Prime is kept secure, and will defer to Federal jurisdiction outside the maximum orbital altitude of 60,000km. Federation Navy or Customs vessels trespassing within the 60,000km orbital border would be considered a possible act of war. Negotiation on the details of this section is likely.
As you and Msr. Tuulinen have so ably stated the disposition of Caldari Prime is the crux of the matter. I myself cannot see, short total war, a solution that doesn't leave Luminaire VI itself and a reasonable zone about it in the hands of the State. But as in all things the devil is in the details. Such as numbers of ships allowed and the rights of Federal citizens who were born on Luminaire VI.
Katrina Oniseki wrote: 3.) Tibus Heth must step down from power, restoring the balance of power among the Eight. His obvious hatred of the Gallente people will only serve to continue this war.
I think it would be improper of me to comment on internal State politics. Having said that, as I mentioned in an earlier post trust if vital to success of any eventual settlement.
Katrina Oniseki wrote: 4a.) The Low-Security regions of Placid, Essence, and Verge Vendor will fall under the sovereignty and governance of the Gallente, without 'Caldari Occupation'. All Caldari megacorps operating in these systems will be forced to recognize Gallente law and regulation.
4b.) The Low-Security systems of Black Rise and The Citadel will fall under the sovereignty and governance of the Caldari, without 'Gallente Occupation'. All Gallente corporations and citizens operating/living in those regions will submit to the authority of the Caldari State or face deportation.
From my limited understanding of the current territorial composition of the conflict it would seem your asking the Federation to give up a fair bit more that it would gain, irrespective of the question of Caldari Prime. I may be wrong on this point.
I would suggest instead an immediate cessation of all hostilities. That the "border" be fixed along the current "line of control". Federal systems under State control and State systems under Federation control will remain so. I understand this will present a problem to some. The final status of individual systems can be determined on a individual or collective basis.
"We are what we do." |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
821
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Personally, I feel the solution lies in bioweapons. The first side to successfully employ wide-scale bioweapons will be the winner of this conflict, by virtue of the opponent being dead. |
Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
1990
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 01:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
I've always liked you. Your solutions are even more better then mine.
Misha.
Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó -á |
Mal'achi
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 02:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:What I, one man, but perhaps representative of some part of the Federal citizenry needs is simple trust.
We need to be able to trust you and you need to be able to trust us. Trust I think that this is where we need to start and what we need to build. Trust. I am new and weak so I will be ignored. But you are looking for something that isn't there. A Caldari that can be trusted. The Federation gave me allot of chances. But life is too easy there. So you forget the hard lessons of life. What I learned in the Republic is that enemies have to be beaten. The Caldari started this war a long time ago with an act of sneaking duplicity. What you purpose to give them is victory. They have shown you the way. If you want something its fine to take it, if you can. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
197
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 02:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Misha M'Liena wrote:You compared my solution to a single planet to a conflict involving hundreds of planets? And here i thought i was the crazy. Would your solution work. If given a chance probaly not. But i't'd be fun to watch and place bets who shoots first.
Now Mr Pieter Tuulinen, back to my solution. It is a start of trying to solve the differences. It would be a competition of sorts. Ok you say that the average citizen doesn't want splendor and excellant living conditions. That they want to live in squalor and dorm housing. I think your off your meds but you might be right. *Coughs-bs-Coughs* Sorry something in my throat.
So find something that you can build to rival what the Gallente build.
Unless of course your saying that you can't.
Misha.
Ah, my mistake. I thought you were interested in actually discussing the situation, but now I see you only want me to be horrified at your terribly edgy persona. Consider me duly horrified, if it pleases you, in the meantime your people have sufficient issues of their own devising to solve that you oughtn't to waste your time in this thread.
Bioweapons. Oh my, what a dynamic free spirit you possess! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
197
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 02:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mal'achi wrote:James Syagrius wrote:What I, one man, but perhaps representative of some part of the Federal citizenry needs is simple trust.
We need to be able to trust you and you need to be able to trust us. Trust I think that this is where we need to start and what we need to build. Trust. I am new and weak so I will be ignored. But you are looking for something that isn't there. A Caldari that can be trusted. The Federation gave me allot of chances. But life is too easy there. So you forget the hard lessons of life. What I learned in the Republic is that enemies have to be beaten. The Caldari started this war a long time ago with an act of sneaking duplicity. What you purpose to give them is victory. They have shown you the way. If you want something its fine to take it, if you can.
What you should have learned from the Republic is that you do what you need to do to secure the needs of your people. That a treaty signed under duress is no sort of treaty at all and that powerful masters can be defied by weaker servants if the cost of the struggle is raised beyond the Master's wish to pay that cost.
There are direct parallels between the State's situation and the Republic's, if you but had the wit to appreciate them.
Now watch and see if we can teach you the ultimate lesson - how to achieve acceptable goals, make peace with our former enemy and grant our people peace and prosperity. |
Mal'achi
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 03:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There are direct parallels between the State's situation and the Republic's, if you but had the wit to appreciate them.
New, but not stupid. When the Gallente came to Caldari the first time did they come to make war or enslave your people? Did they force you to do anything? No, you wisely snapped at the promise of superior technology. Did they force you to settle colonies behind their back and against the very laws you agreed to support, for no other reason than corporate greed? When they blockaded your planet for what a week, did they force you to use terror against Nouvelle Rouvenor? How many people died that day. Sell your lies to someone else. In this war no one is clean true, but make no mistake you Caldari started it. So you want to talk about pparallels what parallels? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
199
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 03:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mal'achi wrote:New, but not stupid.
We'll see.
Mal'achi wrote: 1. When the Gallente came to Caldari the first time did they come to make war or enslave your people? Did they force you to do anything? No, you wisely snapped at the promise of superior technology. 2. Did they force you to settle colonies behind their back and against the very laws you agreed to support, for no other reason than corporate greed? 3. When they blockaded your planet for what a week, did they force you to use terror against Nouvelle Rouvenor? How many people died that day.
1. They came to do neither, I hope - but membership within the Federation eventually came to mean a subservient position and one we were unwilling to accept.
2. Was this really such a big issue? No. Witholding the resources those colonies produced was the issue. It was about money. How many people get executed for fraud?
3. And will you sneer at the orbital bombardment that followed? Regardless, the Federation punished the population of the whole planet for the actions of a few extremist madmen. And then they killed hundreds of thousands. Because we defied them.
Mal'achi wrote:Sell your lies to someone else. In this war no one is clean true, but make no mistake you Caldari started it. So you want to talk about pparallels what parallels?
The parallels of a stronger faction attempting to impose it's will on a weaker. The parallel of a hastily assembled ad hoc military fighting back against one of the strongest navies in New Eden using converted civilian craft. The parallel of lives sacrificed to win freedom.
Lies? Stop beleiving the propaganda you suckled at your Gallente teat along with all the economic and military aid. |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 04:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mal'achi wrote:What you purpose to give them is victory.
Msr. Mal'achi.
I know and love our Federal Union, even the parts of it that don't love us back. ~smirks just a bit~ I know its flaws and its glories.
I understand being filled with anger. I am embarrassed by many of the things I said on this very forum when I first became a capsuleer. Just as sooner or later you will be of what you said today.
Just because I don't fly into battle or have medals on my, chest doesn't mean I haven't done my part. What I would offer is peace for us all, not victory any.
What happened yesterday is beyond our control, what we do tomorrow isn't. "We are what we do." |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 05:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Lies? Stop beleiving the propaganda you suckled at your Gallente teat along with all the economic and military aid. Msr Tuulinen. I have left a good deal of inflammatory rhetoric unanswered.
I have tried to craft my answers without resorting to the usual litany of atrocities committed by ether side.
But this?
We have made some little progress. That should be our focus. Personal insults serve only to increase animosity.
So please show a little charity. "We are what we do." |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 05:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Lies? Stop beleiving the propaganda you suckled at your Gallente teat along with all the economic and military aid. Msr Tuulinen. I have left a good deal of inflammatory rhetoric unanswered. I have tried to craft my answers without resorting to the usual litany of atrocities committed by ether side. But this? We have made some little progress. That should be our focus. Personal insults serve only to increase animosity. So please show a little charity.
I must second this notion. Disregarding any past offenses made by him or others in other threads, this thread was started ostensibly in the hope of understanding exactly what is needed for peace. Devolving into finger pointing and arguement will not help the process. As well, there are plenty of other threads for it.
It is thus, that I respectfully implore my colleague, Pieter Tuulinen-haan, to avoid biting the flamebait posted by others who are not so interested in the purpose of this thread. Peace.
You can't stop the trolls, but you can stop feeding them. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
201
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 05:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Lies? Stop beleiving the propaganda you suckled at your Gallente teat along with all the economic and military aid. Msr Tuulinen. I have left a good deal of inflammatory rhetoric unanswered. I have tried to craft my answers without resorting to the usual litany of atrocities committed by ether side. But this? We have made some little progress. That should be our focus. Personal insults serve only to increase animosity. So please show a little charity.
Apologies to both Msr Sygarius and Oniseki-haani. I'll to avoid such obvious provocation next time. |
James Syagrius
The Scope Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 05:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Msr. Tuulinen.
~Bows politely~ You honor me.
I thank you and I appreciate your forbearance. "We are what we do." |
Mal'achi
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Lies? Stop believing the propaganda you suckled at your Gallente teat along with all the economic and military aid. LIes? Is your alliance with the slaver Amarr a lie? Is their aid to your corrupt government a lie? I don't think so.
James Syagrius wrote:I understand being filled with anger. I am embarrassed by many of the things I said on this very forum when I first became a capsuleer. Just as sooner or later you will be of what you said today. Ya I am angry and I have a right to be. You should be too.
James Syagrius wrote:Just because I don't fly into battle or have medals on my chest doesn't mean I haven't done my part. What I would offer is peace for us all, not victory any. What does that even mean? I get it your rich and get other people to do the dirty work for you. Quit talking and wasting time. Get off your a*s and do something if your so powerful.
James Syagrius wrote:What happened yesterday is beyond our control, what we do tomorrow isn't. Cute listen to your own advice and do something. We are you allies not them. |
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