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Bloody Wench
23
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Posted - 2011.10.08 08:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been feeling a little guilty lately about the ease at which these go off. I thought I'd write a guide all about it then I can sleep soundly knowing that I've done my bit to help prevent them.
Margin trading - The skill. Allows you to place buy orders larger than you have Isk to cover. Down to 25% of the Order value.
Some setting up first, you need a place that has no Isk or somewhere you can throw Isk for safe keeping., an Alt, alt Corp wallet, empty wallet division, anything really. Lets say I use my alt's Corp wallet which generally contains little or no Isk.
Find youself a target item. The best ones are very popular with high turnover but really no more than a days stock left in it. You need a price point as well, do you buy the entire stock and relist it for some much higher number, or do you see a large gap in pricing where you can slot in at 20-50% more than you paid for your items? It's up to you, either way works.
Lets take my latest one for example, 5000 Units of Scorch M.
I'm looking through the markets and I spot that Scorch M has a decent seperation between 350K and 410K, about 1500 on the high end at 350 with some 3500 Units at or about 315K.
Count up how many units you're going to need to buy, to raise the Min Sell to 410000. In this case it was just over 5000 units.
Before you buy them up, set up your Margin Buy. Remember the wallet you're using has no cash in it currently.
Place buy order, select advanced and make sure your empty corp wallet division is selected. Enter in 5000 with 5000 min quantity.
Set your buy price 80-100% above what you're going to list 5000 units at. Hit ok on your order and take note of how much Isk you're missing. In my case this time, I listed items @ 412K and set my Buy @ 750K
Transfer from whatever source a little over the amount of Isk required to make the buy order and set it up again. 5000 with 5000 Min.
This order will never complete, it's impossible. You don't have enough money in the wallet to buy the 5000 units, and the order can only be completed if they sell 5000 units all at once, but you can't afford all 5000, so the order just fails. You lose your market fees, the remainder of Isk for the buy order is put back into your corp wallet division and the order dissapears. You get a pop-up saying "You don't have enough isk"
Ok so go ahead and buy up your items now. Relist said items at whatever you think is reasonable. The crazier you are the longer it will take and the more chance you have of producers coming in and blowing it for you by dumping stock on the market at lower prices.
Don't list the whole lot in 1 big chunk, try to make it look less like a scam.
975 here, 1245 there, 300 here etc etc
This is to make it look attractive to people that don't know better. They will see it and go "holy **** I can buy these 5000 units and sell them again straight away and nearly double my money!"
What really happens...
They buy up all your over-priced stock plus generally others stock as well, until they have thier 5000 units and they go to sell it to your margin buy. Which fails... So you've made your 20-50% (or however much, 500% isnt unheard of) you got your buy order money back, they bought the vast majority of your items and are stuck holding over-priced items. You've made 20-50% for your effort, got some leftover items for resale at competative pricing, and they are holding several Billion worth of items that they will never get what they paid for it.
If it has a Min Qty in the Buy order...don't touch it.
Just to add, you don't sell any items at the hypper inflated price, you sell Zero items to the Margin Buy, the placer of the Margin buy only loses market fees. |
Bloody Wench
23
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Posted - 2011.10.08 15:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm stunned.
180 views and nobody has anything to say.
|
schurem
Anarchy Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.08 15:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
durrrr i dont get it. ****. i'll never get to play the market if im even too dumb to understand a scam if its laid out for me.
but good for you m8. i dont really see the evil in this scam, but then i dont understand it, so there. .... You can't take the skies from me. |
The Yzzerman
Against all 0dds
0
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Posted - 2011.10.08 15:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say.
Who cares? This isnt something new you dumbass |
Bloody Wench
23
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Posted - 2011.10.08 15:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it.
So here it is laid out, let there be no more guilt about it.
|
Krono Black
Light Shines Through
0
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Posted - 2011.10.10 19:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Most people are reading this, and kicking them self in the butt for falling for this. or they read it tried it, didn't set it up right and lost a ton of cash. BUT.... it is a great market scam, people fall for it daily. the average eve player doesn't know that you don't have to compete a buy order you set up. normally i would be mad if someone gave away a good scam, but too many people don't read the market area and will still fall for it. i guess i should say good job helping out the common man and if they read this and don't get scammed that's good for them. when people do get scammed it just makes it funnier because there's a post about it. |
Bloody Wench
24
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Posted - 2011.10.11 04:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think the owner of a very large stockpile of Scorch M just had me War Declared.
Silent tears... |
VD SYPHILIS
tastes l1ke chicken
0
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Posted - 2011.10.11 06:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Us 'normal' non market scammers can also profit from this. The scam (which occasionally has a contract with the over priced items in it) relies on the mark checking the market prices; i usually view the contract/overpriced market sell order (there will be no other items in region, but where i'm based that is only 2 jumps) then list my own overpriced sell orders a couple of million isk cheaper (but still at a massive potential profit). The sucker does a show info on the "capital magnetometric gopher" (or w/e) when the contract/item is spammed in local, sees a large priced sell order (mine) and an even bigger buy order (scam). When they realise that i'm offereing an even better deal than the scammer, they buy my items instead; the best bit is i don't even need to have an alt with margin trading trained, i let the scammers do all the hard work for me!
tl;dr I see scam. I go 2 jumps to different region. I buy 10 units of {insert items here} for a few mil. I relist those back in my home region at less than the scammers sell order. My {insert items here} get sold for a huge profit, and when the mark tries to dump them on the scam buy order, it folds (so the scammer loses too). |
Teklas Romani
Tradesman Connection Centrum of Trade Taurus Quantum Dynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 14:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is brillant even though its nothing new. I think the exspansion of this game is unreal and outright amazing as to the imagination of people. Whats sad is that there are scams like this in the real world...just laid out in this forum for EVE. Awesome to me! |
Tyrnaeg en Varche
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 15:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
So, say normal price for item A is 10k isk. I buy all available items that are being sold below 20k isk. Then I set several SELL orders at about 25-30k isk, and a huge BUY order at 40k.
What stops a player that already has a large stock of item A (bought at normal price, 10k), to set a SELL order at 15k isk? This would fulfill my BUY order, even with Margin Trading applied.
So, he ruins my scam, i end up with DOUBLE the qty of item A -- and gets nice profit too (in this example 5k isk / piece).
Also, if by setting his sell order he sees that the huge BUY order is not fulfilled, he modifies the price until its total value gets below the escrow i've given with Margin Trade. (At level 5, 24% of normal escrow is given for the BUY order)
amirite? |
|
Ms Freak
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 14:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tyrnaeg en Varche wrote:So, say normal price for item A is 10k isk. I buy all available items that are being sold below 20k isk. Then I set several SELL orders at about 25-30k isk, and a huge BUY order at 40k.
What stops a player that already has a large stock of item A (bought at normal price, 10k), to set a SELL order at 15k isk? This would fulfill my BUY order, even with Margin Trading applied.
So, he ruins my scam, i end up with DOUBLE the qty of item A -- and gets nice profit too (in this example 5k isk / piece).
Also, if by setting his sell order he sees that the huge BUY order is not fulfilled, he modifies the price until its total value gets below the escrow i've given with Margin Trade. (At level 5, 24% of normal escrow is given for the BUY order)
EDIT :: I just saw that OP says to set BUY order at 80-100% above SELL orders, which takes order of what i've written above. But, I leave this here as a way to counter the scam under certain circumstances.
You obviously didn't read the OP properly, let me clarify for you:
The BUY order (the inflated one) is created at say 100m isk total and a MINIMUM of 1000 items. The WALLET the buy order is for only has 50m in it because of the margin trading skill.
If someone was to attempt to sell 1000 items to that buy order it FAILS because there's only 50m in the wallet and 100mil is needed to pay the seller.
If someone tried to sell 10 items to that buy order it FAILS because theres a minimum sell quantity of 1000.
The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it, it's simply not possible because there is always at least 1 condition (namely that the wallet the buy order uses never has enough isk in it) that cannot be met.
Whoever originally found this was a clever puppy! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
476
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 14:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ms Freak wrote:The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it GǪwell, apart from not buying from the inflated sell order, which is where the scammer makes his money.
But then again, GÇ£not falling for itGÇ¥ might not really count as GÇ£counter/ruin itGÇ¥.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Tyrnaeg en Varche
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ms Freak wrote:You obviously didn't read the OP properly, let me clarify for you: The BUY order (the inflated one) is created at say 100m isk total and a MINIMUM of 1000 items. The WALLET the buy order is for only has 50m in it because of the margin trading skill. If someone was to attempt to sell 1000 items to that buy order it FAILS because there's only 50m in the wallet and 100mil is needed to pay the seller. If someone tried to sell 10 items to that buy order it FAILS because theres a minimum sell quantity of 1000. The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it, it's simply not possible because there is always at least 1 condition (namely that the wallet the buy order uses never has enough isk in it) that cannot be met. Whoever originally found this was a clever puppy!
Obviously, you have not tried this. Let me enlighten you:
Say you set the inflated BUY order for 100m, of which you only pay, say, 50m in escrow because of the skill. If someone sets a SELL order to meet your required quantity, with low enough price so that the total is LOWER than your escrow, your scam is countered.
The point is that in order to make profit while countering the scam, the inflated BUY order price has to be really high, hence "under certain circumstances" in my first post. |
Efraya
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
If it looks like a scam:
IT'S A SCAM
WSpace; Best space. |
Yaboo Sux
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
U mean not all margin traders do it...... |
Ms Freak
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 09:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tyrnaeg en Varche wrote:Ms Freak wrote:You obviously didn't read the OP properly, let me clarify for you: The BUY order (the inflated one) is created at say 100m isk total and a MINIMUM of 1000 items. The WALLET the buy order is for only has 50m in it because of the margin trading skill. If someone was to attempt to sell 1000 items to that buy order it FAILS because there's only 50m in the wallet and 100mil is needed to pay the seller. If someone tried to sell 10 items to that buy order it FAILS because theres a minimum sell quantity of 1000. The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it, it's simply not possible because there is always at least 1 condition (namely that the wallet the buy order uses never has enough isk in it) that cannot be met. Whoever originally found this was a clever puppy! Obviously, you have not tried this. Let me enlighten you: Say you set the inflated BUY order for 100m, of which you only pay, say, 50m in escrow because of the skill. If someone sets a SELL order to meet your required quantity, with low enough price so that the total is LOWER than your escrow, your scam is countered. The point is that in order to make profit while countering the scam, the inflated BUY order price has to be really high, hence "under certain circumstances" in my first post.
I feel like I might be getting troll'd here but i'm gonna roll with it anyway for a bit...
I tell you what - why don't YOU try to do what your saying is possible. Get an alt to set the situation up and give it a go. If the person creating the buy order has the margin trading skill and leaves the associated wallet @ 0isk then there is no way for you to complete the order.
If there is a buy order on the market for 10 items of 1mil isk each and you put up a sell order for 10 items at 800K isk each then you will be paid 10mil isk. This is because the buy order controls the price paid. This, coupled with the minimum items is what makes this work.
I assure you that you cannot in any way shape or form sucessfully sell anything to the inflated buy order. Even the Tippia agrees with my previous statements (and she's the one actively using it!):
Tippia wrote:Ms Freak wrote:The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin itGǪwell, apart from not buying from the inflated sell order, which is where the scammer makes his money. GǪwell, apart from not buying from the inflated sell order, which is where the scammer makes his money. But then again, Gǣnot falling for itGǥ might not really count as Gǣcounter/ruin itGǥ. |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 09:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'd just say it's an exploit. That it can be done shows another CCP-made hole you can drive a Fenrir through. (What IS a fenrir anyway???) Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 09:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:(What IS a fenrir anyway???)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir
:) |
Bloody Wench
84
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 07:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
It's funny because it's true. |
Pent'nor
Pent'nor Independent Gallente Partisan
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 09:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have seen other types of scams on the market, but its the first time i've run into this one. I applause the person that came up with it. The other scams ive seen could be avoided by just paying attention, but this one makes everything look legit (besides the its too good to be true, are they that lazy thought) But I can see a skilled person making alot off of this. Koodos |
|
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 09:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:
If it has a Min Qty in the Buy order...don't touch it.
what can i say here? It is nice when you see something unusual on market....
|
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say.
that scam has been known about for years Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless your from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
Bloody Wench
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 13:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say. that scam has been known about for years
And yet I had a Nanofibre II go off yesterday.
Wasn't overly successful but covered costs and now I have some 2500 units that are pure profit no matter what I sell them at. |
Bloody Wench
95
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 15:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
BOOM
Another one bites the dust.
Lucille Leesom
GJ, I appreciate that.
'Educating players about Margin Scams one order at a time' |
OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 19:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
It's pretty well thought out and organized as an explanation. Good job.
PS Anyone who falls for this deserves it, it's like seeing the "free [x] in Old Man Star Belt 1" and going there to get it. |
Yuuki Musashi
Madoff Securities
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 11:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is not a very good guide, fortunately. I think I will still be in business for quite some time.
It fails to mention several finer points of the Margin Trading Scam, including how to avoid getting counter-scammed, and the advice for choosing an item is bad. The OP's profit margin is also laughably low.
Tech 2 ammo is an exceptionally poor candidate, although not as bad as T1 ammo. If you must do ammo, Pirate Faction Ammo is the way to go, for reasons that should be obvious after some thought.
And let's not forget the words of P.T. Barnum, either. |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 11:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say.
Because we enjoy replying to the same type of thread every frikking week for a year + |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
135
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 13:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
The easiest counter to this scam is to simply know what the inherent value of the items you are trading in are. Or at the very least to analyze the market history so you know how much the item actually trades for 99.99999999% of the time.
If you don't do your homework, you are doomed to fail. |
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 10:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Teklas Romani wrote:This is brillant even though its nothing new. I think the exspansion of this game is unreal and outright amazing as to the imagination of people. Whats sad is that there are scams like this in the real world...just laid out in this forum for EVE. Awesome to me!
Really...?
This scam was arguably invented by 2 kids playing Diablo II.
One kid enters game and writes in chat: WTB Uber sword of Slashing, paying 10 SoJ!!!
10 SoJ is about 10 times the market price.
Other Kid enters and starts spamming: Selling Uber sword of Slashing 3 sojs.
The dupe starts thinking. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
278
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 05:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sent this to a corp mate who almost fell for the scam tonight.
He was all excited that someone had a buy order up for a few million unit buy order, minimum buy equal to the total order, at 3x the current market price. To the point that he was ready to go buy a GTC to get in on the "mistake".
We gently talked him into putting his wallet away. |
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Bloody Wench
124
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 07:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
I've found a few ways people make life hard or harder when I do one.
Completely ignore the buy/sell prices and continue like nothing has happened. It's annoying but not the end of the world.
EG: if the item is worth 1000 isk generally and I've relisted at 2000 they will not play the game and list new items at 1999.99 but go to something like 1100. This means I have to buy thier items to maintain the artificially high price. This gets expensive fast. They are making 10% while I take on more and more liability.
Import items from an adjacent region if margins permit, and list items somewhere between 1000-1500.
Ignore the margin buy order and continue to buy at the regular price and relisting 10-20% above thier regular purchase price. You can slightly counter the above by placing your own buys in this regard.
The worst though is when there's a large dump by a manufacturer in the order of several days worth of stock at or near the regular sell price. When this happens you either have to go under them meaning your profit is cut substantially or you have to buy them out increasing your liability significantly. Neither of which are desired outcomes.
|
Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 17:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
This, too, has a learning curve, both on the scammer and the scammed-counterscammer side. Apologies if this was written up before, i had not bothered to look it up.
The scammer tries to create an illusion of demand (illusory buy order) for an overpriced item of his.
The scammer is relaxed in the knowledge that their illusion has only a limited amount of isk in it, thanks to the margin trading skill and empty wallets. Sellers not educated in the scam will find that they cant fulfill the illusion at the listed price, as it "fizzles at the touch"
The damage is done, and the seller (mark) is stuck with the items he bought at the inflated price (or sourced from somewhere else at not so inflated prices, which is a lesser loss, but still, the demand is usually rather small for the items used in these scams - which in turn is a conscious choice by the scammer in order to avoid the illusion fizzling too often, as would happen if supply was plentiful).
This was the elementary case.
However, if the illusion is set at an absurdly high price (which greedy and/or impatient scammers are wont to do), the actual isk remaining in it after margin trading can still be rather substantial - even with the skill at 5 and an empty wallet, this amount is not zero, as can be calculated from the skill description.
At this point the counterscammer estimates the skill level of the scammer, and figures out the actual isk likely to still be in the illusion. He looks for sources of the required item which are not the scammers inflated sell orders or contracts.
The counterscammer knows, that things can be sold for a lower price than the highest buy order. In a normal situation this would be silly, but now it means he can sell the items in question at a price that matches (volume taken into account) the smaller amount of isk still in the illusion.
The counterscammer can make a profit, if he sources the items in question for less than what the illusion is worth. In other words, the illusion will act like a normal buy order - materialize, so to speak - if its not asked by the seller for more isk than what is still in it.
This was the usual scenario. Its not over though.
The scammer can also be even more informed, and can know how to simply empty the illusion, even of the small amount otherwise left in it after margin trading. It can be done within game mechanics, and isnt even terribly difficult. This means that the illusion is indeed just an illusion, with no (or infinitesimal) actual value.
The counterscammer ends up losing.
The counterscammer can realise that this is happening. At this point he can give up trying to counterscam, not knowing when he might stumble upon an emptied illusion.
Or, he can figure out how to tell the vanilla illusions from the emptied ones. This also is easily done within game mechanics (no social engineering or somesuch required), allowing the counterscammer to keep looking for the occasional not-empty illusion.
So far goes the usual working of the scam. Its still not over though.
This is where I slide into theorycrafting. I think there might be a method that allows for the emptying of an illusion in an undetectable manner, but I have not tested it yet. If so, this advanced emptying of the illusion could make it impossible to tell if an illusion is empty or not - I will post the results later when I find out.
Fun little minigame, I made a lot on a couple of lucky counterscams. Best single take was 4 bill on an illusion with a shedload of faction ammo.
Great fun when one spots the occasional non-empty, and races to source the items required (usually from the arse end of the universe) before the illusion fizzles again Can be quite the adrenaline rush, barreling down the Jita pipe in a BR with hundreds of millions worth of some trash tag from Molden Heath in the hold, franticly checking the Jita market on the alt if the illusion is still up, and pondering if Rancer is ok or not... Good times. |
Dane El
Daneco Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
In theory you can punish these scammers by putting enough isk in their wallets to cover the order and then dumping stock on them. You'll get your money back from the sale plus their escrow. Problem is you can't be sure who posted the order and what wallet it is assigned to. Smart scammers will do as the OP and use a corp order not assigned to the master wallet (where your isk will go if you give the corp funds).
Best bet is to just leave it alone unless you already have stock on hand to pop it. You'll make them lose the broker fees to relist the order but no major damage done. |
Bloody Wench
135
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 06:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dr Halberstam wrote:.....Good times.
Dude...how wasted were you when you wrote this?
|
Aerocuker
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 22:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
The first few times I found margin trade buy orders in an item that I had stockpiled, I promptly filled the fake buy order to waste the "scammer's" time. But then I realized a better idea was to join in on the fun and try to make some isk by putting my stockpile for sale just under the scammer's sell order. This works quite often, yesterday for instance I made 400m profit on a stack of Cryoprotectant Solutions. I've never set up a margin trading buy order myself, but I've made billions off others doing this scam. |
Zeta Zhul
Preemptive Paranoia
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 01:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
One interesting variant that I thought of, but have never put into practice, really doesn't have anything to do with trading at all.
Instead the object is to draw in traders and opportunists looking to make a fast isk on a Margin Trading scam.
1. Find an isolated and not usually popular highsec system that has one jump gate.
2. Put a Margin Trading buy order scam in the system for something popular that you want including the associated sell orders.
3. Assemble a gank team that will camp the gate.
4. Gank any transport or Industrial that comes through the gate because most likely it'll be carrying items to fill the buy order -or- to take advantage of the buy order in order to undersell you. Leave the other ships alone because they're probably carrying people who will buy from your sell orders.
You profit from people who buy from your sell orders. You profit from people who bring items to fill your buy order. You profit from people who bring items to undercut your sell orders. |
SileconBridgeBurner
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
schurem wrote:durrrr i dont get it. ****. i'll never get to play the market if im even too dumb to understand a scam if its laid out for me.
but good for you m8. i dont really see the evil in this scam, but then i dont understand it, so there.
Nice Signature, also, very interesting subject. |
Ilinea
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ms Freak wrote:Tyrnaeg en Varche wrote:So, say normal price for item A is 10k isk. I buy all available items that are being sold below 20k isk. Then I set several SELL orders at about 25-30k isk, and a huge BUY order at 40k.
What stops a player that already has a large stock of item A (bought at normal price, 10k), to set a SELL order at 15k isk? This would fulfill my BUY order, even with Margin Trading applied.
So, he ruins my scam, i end up with DOUBLE the qty of item A -- and gets nice profit too (in this example 5k isk / piece).
Also, if by setting his sell order he sees that the huge BUY order is not fulfilled, he modifies the price until its total value gets below the escrow i've given with Margin Trade. (At level 5, 24% of normal escrow is given for the BUY order)
EDIT :: I just saw that OP says to set BUY order at 80-100% above SELL orders, which takes order of what i've written above. But, I leave this here as a way to counter the scam under certain circumstances. You obviously didn't read the OP properly, let me clarify for you: The BUY order (the inflated one) is created at say 100m isk total and a MINIMUM of 1000 items. The WALLET the buy order is for only has 50m in it because of the margin trading skill. If someone was to attempt to sell 1000 items to that buy order it FAILS because there's only 50m in the wallet and 100mil is needed to pay the seller. If someone tried to sell 10 items to that buy order it FAILS because theres a minimum sell quantity of 1000. The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it, it's simply not possible because there is always at least 1 condition (namely that the wallet the buy order uses never has enough isk in it) that cannot be met. Whoever originally found this was a clever puppy!
See, that is where you definetely are wrong and the one you replied to is right. This buy order CAN be fulfilled under some conditions, if you know each and every mechanic of the market!
Those who aren't able to spot a scam like that on the market, should better think twice if daytrading is for them. Because, when you use every information already available in the game (like the price history), you won't fall for this.
Btw, this is the oldest trick of the world, invented in ancient times already.
They told me to mine... and I started to mine, the market ;) |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
It is a well known trick, and one way to counter this is to guesstimate the escrow value and sell under the escrow price. Careless scammers will be burnt by this simple counter, but careful ones empty their own escrow by selling to their own buy orders to empty out the escrow. Once the escrow money is spent, the buy order pulls the money directly from the scammer's wallet, which is empty. Hence the order fails.
Another way to counter is, as mentioned, is 0.01 isking the sell order.
However, both countermeasures require one to have sufficient quantity (min. buy qty, remember?) of the item in stock for sale. So always keep that in mind before you go on an anti-scam crusade...just saying.
But seriously, when you see a buy order for an item with a higher-than-sell price and a minimum quantity set up, ask yourself
"Why the f**k does she/he need this many **** in one go?" "Why doesn't she/he buy off from those cheaper sell orders?"
Also, look at the item in question. Do any of us really need, let's say, minimum 1000 ECM drones per go? Well, if you are a trader... maybe. But then again, if you buy your trading items at a price higher than the market sell value, what f**king idiot of a trader are ya?
So obvious scams are obvious, but the real nasty stuff is a margin trading scam with 1 unit order. ex: ships, plex, anything that has high value. This is very hard to tell.
If it looks like a scam, it is a scam. This is EVE. You are not paranoid. Everyone REALLY is trying to kill you. |
Shuluman
Haggard Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 09:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
This doesnt strike me as a scam as much as it does an exploit. The person on the recieving end of this has no way of being able to tell if they will lose out when there is a perfectly legitimate order on the market. Its not the same as contract scams or trade window ones where carefull checking will show up a problem.
Using a method to create an order with the express intention of not allowing it to be fulfilled through current game mechanics suggests that it isnt being used in the way it was intended.
Gaining an advantage through a flaw in the way the game works should be fixed by CCP. They did it with the warp bubble stacking trick in nullsec not so long ago.
Just to clarify i havent been caught by this but making an observation based on what i have read in this thread. |
|
Boris Ginnungagap
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 11:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Scammers are worthless scum, just like pirates. |
Callduron
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 13:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.
If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested. |
Bloody Wench
156
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 13:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.
If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested.
They should just remove the Min QTY part. There's no good reason to have it. |
Derpette Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 15:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
And I thought min. buy orders comes in quite handy for regional buy orders to not need to dock on every station for 1 tritanium
TIL |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 16:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
I still don't understand why people want to take a mechanic that is working well and change it because they are too stupid to catch the scam. If you fall for it once, well, welcome to EVE. If you fall for it twice, you're ******** and deserve it.
|
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Margin Trading does not scam people. People do!
Despite the best attempts by white knights like the O, CCP has so far allowed this skill to exist pretty much as it has from the start. I see no need to break one of the most strategically useful trade skills in the game.
All those claiming there is no way to know.... Uh... Minimum quantity?
Happy transactions. |
DrRuby
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 01:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
I almost fell for one of these the other day but I noticed the minimum item requirement was higher than the total units even available in the region.
I didn't even consider margin trading. Does anyone even use that skill for what its intended for? Buy orders magically disappearing when it goes south seems like a pretty big risk to me. |
Xcen
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 06:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
Funnny that this thread pops up. Someone tried to do this with a meta 2-3 energy neut. I saw the buy order with a min. purchase of 250 units at double the sell price. Tip of advice for the scammer, don't make it so someone must invest 3billion to accommodate your buy order...you need to make it reasonable so people take the bait. (It's like baiting in a maller or drake... to obvious) |
Bloody Wench
171
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 18:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
With school being out, now is a good time to give this topic a little nudge for the holidays. |
Whang'Lo
Set Sail to Epic Fail
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 11:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Thanks for posting this.
I've seen quite a few of these buy orders around and a couple of times thought about trying to fill them.
Glad I never tried it
I was thinking that people were trying to drive up market averages or something, never knew you could place a buy order that was impossible to fill.
How about this for a simple way CCP could fix this:
Disable the option to set a minimum volume on any margin trade.
|
|
Iria Ahrens
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 13:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Will Strafe wrote:Teklas Romani wrote:This is brillant even though its nothing new. I think the exspansion of this game is unreal and outright amazing as to the imagination of people. Whats sad is that there are scams like this in the real world...just laid out in this forum for EVE. Awesome to me! Really...? This scam was arguably invented by 2 kids playing Diablo II. One kid enters game and writes in chat: WTB Uber sword of Slashing, paying 10 SoJ!!! 10 SoJ is about 10 times the market price. Other Kid enters and starts spamming: Selling Uber sword of Slashing 3 sojs. The dupe starts thinking.
Different scam.
|
Coresti Uthlan
ARK Coresti Star Corp
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 19:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:David Grogan wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say. that scam has been known about for years And yet I had a Nanofibre II go off yesterday. Wasn't overly successful but covered costs and now I have some 2500 units that are pure profit no matter what I sell them at.
Thank you. One less person will be scammed.
|
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 06:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
i got scammed tonight by Industrial Mining 750million hard earned l4 mission isk down the drain
wish i knew about margin trading sooner
at least this scammer has a heart
|
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 06:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.
It goes something like this; When you have 200 mil ISK to your name and you do not fully understand the complex market system of EVE, you have an idea that perhaps most have the same problem; making mistakes and bad buy/sell orders because the system appears to be so complex.
You already know enough so that you've made some profitable trades and are confident that the market is a way to make more ISK. While scanning the market for potential trades, there is suddenly a trade, right there, that seems like a sure thing to double your money. Greed takes over and there is an immediate pressure to quickly do some clicks to "make money fast" before someone else notices this "great trading opportunity". There is no time to think and consider the why and, well...
Cue tears.
I would be otherwise perfectly fine with this but it actively does drive away fairly new players from the game that manage to lose most of their net worth when falling for it and the game mechanics themselves appear legit. Unlike your average contract scams in Jita which can be avoided by just reading what you are accepting, margin trading scams appear to be what it says on the tin - the only red flag is the "too good to be true" price which is hard for newbie to see (and even if he'd understand that the price is not right, the obvious assumption is a fat finger when setting up the order or something).
The whole concept that the game could potentially allow you to set a bogus order that can't be completed is impossible to figure out without outside warning. Hence I think CCP should probably stomp on it through changes in game mechanics.
|
Anderron Shi
Orb-Disc Industries Ltd New Eden's Industrial Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 06:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it. Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK? I mean it happens, so obviously there are reasons...It's just so funny, and sort of sad...I've not been scammed yet, but I'm sure every capsuleer gets scammed in one small way or another eventually..
I mean, sh*t, with all the time these people spend trying to scam people on EVE, they could be on the streets of RL scamming businessmen out of real $$ with stories about trying to get back home, lost jobs, hungry kids, sick wife, etc.
Sorry for my rant, but if I was a scammer, I'd have to look at my life and ask myself....
Umadbro?
Don't mase me bro! |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
185
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Anderron Shi wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it. Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK?.
Note that the actual effort exerted by the scammer is a few minutes. They can spend the rest of that day doing something else such as what you suggest.
|
Shar Tegral
72
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Anderron Shi wrote:Umadbro? Wow.
So firmly said. So firmly clueless.
Ugotbrainbro?
As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup.
Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game. (I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.)
Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side! |
Anderron Shi
Orb-Disc Industries Ltd New Eden's Industrial Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Anderron Shi wrote:Umadbro? Wow. So firmly said. So firmly clueless. Ugot brainbro? As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup. Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game. (I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.) Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side! yay! Don't mase me bro! |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
784
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 09:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I've found a few ways people make life hard or harder when I do one.
Completely ignore the buy/sell prices and continue like nothing has happened. It's annoying but not the end of the world.
EG: if the item is worth 1000 isk generally and I've relisted at 2000 they will not play the game and list new items at 1999.99 but go to something like 1100. This means I have to buy thier items to maintain the artificially high price. This gets expensive fast. They are making 10% while I take on more and more liability.
Import items from an adjacent region if margins permit, and list items somewhere between 1000-1500.
Ignore the margin buy order and continue to buy at the regular price and relisting 10-20% above thier regular purchase price. You can slightly counter the above by placing your own buys in this regard.
The worst though is when there's a large dump by a manufacturer in the order of several days worth of stock at or near the regular sell price. When this happens you either have to go under them meaning your profit is cut substantially or you have to buy them out increasing your liability significantly. Neither of which are desired outcomes.
Undercuters might hurt this as well |
Jienna Sarain
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 12:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the games market mechanics.
Human greed tempted by the quick gain of a lot of isk for seemingly small amount of effort is why people fall for the margin trading scams.
It just takes a bit of thought to not fall foul to these tricks, the same with item price manipulation you see every week on various items in Jita etc and of course the contracts that look like your buying something that your not.
It's the tricksters fault but it's your mistake!
Yes, I fell for it once and know of other that have
my 2 cents
|
|
Gregory Brunswick
Enlightened Enterprise
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 08:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Am I the only one that has seen a spike in this type of margin scam since this been posted? |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 11:34:00 -
[62] - Quote
Gregory Brunswick wrote:Am I the only one that has seen a spike in this type of margin scam since this been posted?
Natural. It is trivially easy to do, not against game rules and people fall for it. Why not try?
It'll either die down or CCP steps in at some point and somehow fixes things. It is bit of an annoying scam in that if you are a fairly new player and haven't heard of it, there is no real red flashing light beyond the "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"...
|
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Gregory Brunswick wrote:Am I the only one that has seen a spike in this type of margin scam since this been posted? Natural. It is trivially easy to do, not against game rules and people fall for it. Why not try? It'll either die down or CCP steps in at some point and somehow fixes things. It is bit of an annoying scam in that if you are a fairly new player and haven't heard of it, there is no real red flashing light beyond the "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"...
This is becoming stupid.
Okay boys and girls. Here is how you spot a margin trade that you should either avoid or in no way act in reliance of.
1. open the market and select the item you are interested in.
2. spread the window so that you can see "min volume" column. (this seems to be the step most lazy people forget)
3. If min volume > 1, avoid.
That's it! That is all you need to know.
Now stop being afraid and stop pretending there is no way to avoid this pitfall. Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Xearal
SOL Industries Black Thorne Alliance
246
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:38:00 -
[64] - Quote
To the OP:
Thank you for posting the entire setup of this scam. While I peronally already knew about it a long time, and figured out how it worked, and thus never fell for it. (tbh, I've never fallen for any scam * knocks on wood * ), it's nice to see it all laid out and posted, which makes people falling for it look even more stupid, as a little research can teach them all they need to know to avoid it.
As for ways to 'counter' this scam. There's 2 possible ways:
1) Get the item somewhere else at a competitive price or manufacture them, then move it to the place where the scam is taking place, and list it at less than the scammer's orders, thus allowing you to pinch some of their profits.
2) If you have enough of said item, sell it to the buy order, yes it will fail, but in trying, you will have removed the bait from the scam, and cost them their market fees on placing said order. Then watch if they try to set it up again, and if they do, try selling to it again, thus costing them more money to keep the bait 'live', while they're not making money on the inflated items.
Personally, I prefer doing option one, for two reasons:
1) The 2nd option doesn't make you any money, while the first does. 2) If done with 'moderation', the scammer will continue to make money, thus continuing their scam, thus allowing you to milk more money from them. Best way is to set up your own sell order somewhere between the other sell orders that are placed by the scammer, so they will make some money on the cheapest sell orders they have, before being stuck with the rest of their stuff as your sell order takes up the rest of the stuff. Also, it will allow for more people to fall for the scam, as more marks will be able to buy into the 'promised profit'.
|
Renarla
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 23:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Is the minimum amount part really necessary, or am I misunderstanding or how it works?
Let's say you put 10 of some random item up for sale at 200m and put a Margin Trading buy order for 10 up for 300m with a minimum amount of 1, and then transfer all of your isk into a corp wallet or alt's wallet. Even if someone buys 1 of your item and tries to sell it to you, or if they try to "break" the scam by bringing the item from another region, it will still fail even if the minimum amount is only 1 right? |
Dagny Jameson
Impending Doom Inc. True Reign
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 18:48:00 -
[66] - Quote
I use margin trading honestly. Mostly by putting up buy orders for a few different things I can resell (as I have no preference which of them fills first). It's nice to be able to leverage your ISK that way. Especially in slower markets there is not much chance of all your buy orders being filled at the same time, so I can wait for one to fill and then resell those items. I have rarely ever had the margin called, and I use it like this all the time.
Not with min. qty, though. The only time I use that is for buying insignias, I really don't want to travel for every single insignia with a region-wide buy order, so I usually put a minimum of like 10-20 per sale. |
Dagny Jameson
Impending Doom Inc. True Reign
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 18:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
Renarla wrote:Is the minimum amount part really necessary, or am I misunderstanding or how it works?
Let's say you put 10 of some random item up for sale at 200m and put a Margin Trading buy order for 10 up for 300m with a minimum amount of 1, and then transfer all of your isk into a corp wallet or alt's wallet. Even if someone buys 1 of your item and tries to sell it to you, or if they try to "break" the scam by bringing the item from another region, it will still fail even if the minimum amount is only 1 right? The problem with this is that it is a lot easier for someone to "happen to" have enough of the item to satisfy the buy order. So there's a much higher chance of it failing before someone buys from the scammer's sell order. They only make a profit if someone buys up the full amount, and it helps them if the min qty is something in the order most people don't have sitting around. |
Professor Humbert
Project Fruit House
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 18:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
Renarla wrote:Is the minimum amount part really necessary, or am I misunderstanding or how it works?
Let's say you put 10 of some random item up for sale at 200m and put a Margin Trading buy order for 10 up for 300m with a minimum amount of 1, and then transfer all of your isk into a corp wallet or alt's wallet. Even if someone buys 1 of your item and tries to sell it to you, or if they try to "break" the scam by bringing the item from another region, it will still fail even if the minimum amount is only 1 right?
The minimum quantity is not pulled out of thin air.. there's some math behind:
10 x 300M isk = 3,000,000,000 isk
at Margin Trading 5, your escrow is
3,000,000,000 * (0.75)^5 = 711.9 M isk
You see... minimum quantity of 1 unit (300M) will mess up the scam :)
For the buy order to fail, the escrow must never be sufficient to cover the minimum quantity.
---
So if you see a scam order, try to guesstimate the escrow behind. It is the actual money available to any seller who is willing to match the total price of his sell order.
Coming back to your example, let's say I have that item in enough quantity. I guesstimate the scammer's escrow to be around 711M. Even though the buy price is 300M each, I place a sell order 10 x 70M. And the order goes through because there's enough money in the escrow, right? right?
Not always.
Because, the scammer can always pre-empty his own escrow by using the above counter himself. |
clamslayer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 09:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
meh |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 16:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Renarla wrote:Is the minimum amount part really necessary, or am I misunderstanding or how it works?
Let's say you put 10 of some random item up for sale at 200m and put a Margin Trading buy order for 10 up for 300m with a minimum amount of 1, and then transfer all of your isk into a corp wallet or alt's wallet. Even if someone buys 1 of your item and tries to sell it to you, or if they try to "break" the scam by bringing the item from another region, it will still fail even if the minimum amount is only 1 right?
NO
When you place the buy order the cash is taken from you wallet and placed in escrow. If the money is not there the buy order will fail and not be setup.
the margin trading skill allows for only a percentage of the total order to be placed in escrow.
So if you set up a buy order for 10 units totaling 300m with max margin trading you will still have 25% of the order in escrow or 75m. 10 items for 300m is only 30m a piece so having a minimum of 1 someone could try to sell 2 of the item to you and it will go through as it would only require 60m of the 75m in escrow.
The way to make this work is to sell the two items to yourself using an alt. this will deplete the escrow leaving in this example a buy order for 8 items @ 30m a piece or 240m for the entire order with a minimum number of items at 1 but only 15m left in escrow preventing even a single item sold to go through. The problem with this is the order could be fizzled buy a single unit of the item raising the risk of lost profit for the scammer while making the order look legit.
This is also common. scammers will do this scam but place the buy order for a larger number of units say 10,000 units with a minimum of 10% of the total order 1000 units. than by selling 2000 units to the buy order themselves they empty the escrow below what is needed for the minimum order. This would leave a buy order for 8000 units with a minimum of 1000 units that would still fail even if the seller only tried to sell the minimum to the buy order. |
|
Vibesz
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 17:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Almost fell for this yesterday, but then I took an arrow to the knee. |
Dyaven
36
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 17:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
This is not as easy as it seems. I've lost 1b trying this and I'm done. Ugh. |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 02:05:00 -
[73] - Quote
Dyaven wrote:This is not as easy as it seems. I've lost 1b trying this and I'm done. Ugh.
You are the guy who did the 'legit' scam in Dodixie, right? |
Corpia Sin
Industry Education Service
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 03:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
I am a newbie trader and could you please explain more clearly what is going on? I want to be able to avoid this scam if possible. And the only way is to know how it is accomplished. At this point it is quite confusing to my feeble mind.
You say that you buy out all the sell orders of your particular item and relist them higher - in your case at 412k increasing the minimum sell order. Is this right? I guess this is where I have trouble ... to me that seems like a risk in of itself. And would send a warning sign that's something fishy when someone comes along and just purchases and entire sell market in an item then relists that same unit amount but at higher isk?
Ok considering I understand this so far you then set up your margin buy order first then buy out all the units? - Why does it matter when you buy out the items to increase minimum sale? So you bought all of the Scorch M and relisted one large sell order at 412k? Or do you relist the sell oders at 411.99 with .1 isk increments to look more official? Or does that even matter? Then you count the number of units you bought to do so (5000) - then created a margin buy order for that with a min. 5k amount?
Why do you have to relist this margin buy order 2x? I have yet to do margin trading. I have to assume that the first listing used gives an error because there is no isk in your wallet cover the 25% - is this correct? Then you relist the same margin buy order but this time with enough isk in your wallet to cover the costs this time - allowing the order to proceed.
Ok so if I understand up until here... you then hope someone falls for this and buys up the 5000 unit @ 412k isk (which earns you profit) and then they resell back to you earning you even more?
If all the stars align I think you would walk away with great profit. But I am skeptical on the ease of this. It seems like you have to spend time finding the perfect item, price split, and number of items, and a fast turn item. Finding such a market in itself could take time and I am not sure worth the effort. However one who spends hours viewing market trends one could now and again see an opportunity such as this.
I think going out purposefully to conduct this scam would prove to be time consuming - however I am a newb and just beginning my adventure in eve.
Clarification on this or any other ideas are welcome, this is quite interesting. When you think you seen everything in eve...
|
Dyaven
36
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 08:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
Fat Buddah wrote:Dyaven wrote:This is not as easy as it seems. I've lost 1b trying this and I'm done. Ugh. You are the guy who did the 'legit' scam in Dodixie, right?
Yep! :D I did 660m in backwards scams before I got it right. I thought it was closer to 1b but some of my isk seemed "lost" due to how the corp wallet works, it was actually there. A veteran of the scam took me under her wing and taught me the ropes and I was able to get a successful one off, still working on recovering from my losses however.
What I still don't really understand is how it's done without the use of a Contract to sell the items. Trying to put a buy order higher than a sell order will just automatically fill the order and vice versa. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
329
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 19:32:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bump. Sigh. http://i.imgur.com/cOmMP.gif |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 03:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Corpia Sin wrote:I am a newbie trader and could you please explain more clearly what is going on? I want to be able to avoid this scam if possible. And the only way is to know how it is accomplished. At this point it is quite confusing to my feeble mind.
You say that you buy out all the sell orders of your particular item and relist them higher - in your case at 412k increasing the minimum sell order. Is this right? I guess this is where I have trouble ... to me that seems like a risk in of itself. And would send a warning sign that's something fishy when someone comes along and just purchases and entire sell market in an item then relists that same unit amount but at higher isk?
Ok considering I understand this so far you then set up your margin buy order first then buy out all the units? - Why does it matter when you buy out the items to increase minimum sale? So you bought all of the Scorch M and relisted one large sell order at 412k? Or do you relist the sell oders at 411.99 with .1 isk increments to look more official? Or does that even matter? Then you count the number of units you bought to do so (5000) - then created a margin buy order for that with a min. 5k amount?
Why do you have to relist this margin buy order 2x? I have yet to do margin trading. I have to assume that the first listing used gives an error because there is no isk in your wallet cover the 25% - is this correct? Then you relist the same margin buy order but this time with enough isk in your wallet to cover the costs this time - allowing the order to proceed.
Ok so if I understand up until here... you then hope someone falls for this and buys up the 5000 unit @ 412k isk (which earns you profit) and then they resell back to you earning you even more?
If all the stars align I think you would walk away with great profit. But I am skeptical on the ease of this. It seems like you have to spend time finding the perfect item, price split, and number of items, and a fast turn item. Finding such a market in itself could take time and I am not sure worth the effort. However one who spends hours viewing market trends one could now and again see an opportunity such as this.
I think going out purposefully to conduct this scam would prove to be time consuming - however I am a newb and just beginning my adventure in eve.
Clarification on this or any other ideas are welcome, this is quite interesting. When you think you seen everything in eve...
They generally do this with items that are hard to find on the market. like rare low value tags, or modules or rigs nobody uses that there is no supply or demand for.
You find a low value item with very little supply. buy all the available stock. which will not be much if you choose the right item. then set all the items you bought in a series of sell orders at a very high but believable price. several orders at a range in price that will give you a huge profit.
Then you use an alt with maxed margin trading skill to set up a buy order for that item with a minimum number of units high enough that the total will be more than what you have placed in escrow. The margin trading skill will allow you to only have to escrow I think 25% of the total funds needed for the order. Than you make sure that character has no isk in there wallet, or use a corp wallet division that is empty.
Someone searching the market will see the buy order and see that the selling price is lower and think, hey I can buy these and sell to that order and make a profit. they buy all your over priced items and try to fill the order. since there is not enough escrow in the order to cover it and the character that set it up has an empty wallet the order will fail and be removed from the market.
You just sold a stack of items for way more than they are worth and the character that bought them is now stuck with goods they way over paid for and the juicy buy order they wanted to sell to failed and is now gone.
That is the simplest explanation I can come up with. I hope you can see how it works now.
|
BabySeal Clubber
KittehsofDoOoOoM
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 15:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
No matter how I look at it, I can't feel sorry for anyone who falls for it. Knowledge is power, and if you don't pay attention to all the finer details, you deserve to be scammed.
Natural selection is a b*tch.... for those who get chopped off the block. |
Singeabooty Raj
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet
244
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 16:56:00 -
[79] - Quote
BabySeal Clubber wrote:No matter how I look at it, I can't feel sorry for anyone who falls for it. Knowledge is power, and if you don't pay attention to all the finer details, you deserve to be scammed.
Natural selection is a b*tch.... for those who get chopped off the block. Concurage. But please no club teh poor baby seals. Black Man with Goggles |
Freylock
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 07:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
Fell for this the other day. I was all, "Only contracts are scams; the market is totally safe" Then I was all, "qq" Lesson learned--thanks for the post. |
|
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
95
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 08:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Dyaven wrote:Fat Buddah wrote:Dyaven wrote:This is not as easy as it seems. I've lost 1b trying this and I'm done. Ugh. You are the guy who did the 'legit' scam in Dodixie, right? Yep! :D I did 660m in backwards scams before I got it right. I thought it was closer to 1b but some of my isk seemed "lost" due to how the corp wallet works, it was actually there. A veteran of the scam took me under her wing and taught me the ropes and I was able to get a successful one off, still working on recovering from my losses however. What I still don't really understand is how it's done without the use of a Contract to sell the items. Trying to put a buy order higher than a sell order will just automatically fill the order and vice versa.
Its my understanding that this is why the min buy quantity is so high. You place it high so the market order cannot fill it by itself. Saw this yesterday on some mind links. The min quantity was over 800 which was more than the number of items for sale on the market.
Can someone confirm this issue. If you place a buy order with a min quantity @ 500 at a 100k/pu and the market has a total of 1000k units between 20-50k/pu will the market simply slice out 500 units or is the market looking for an individual sell order that has more than 500 units in order to fulfill the min quantity requirement? |
Dsan
x13 Raiden.
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 10:03:00 -
[82] - Quote
Can this be done from corp wallet ?
Also, replying to "bookmark" thread :D Go read my blog at: www.eveblog.dsan.dk
Or follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/Dsan_dk |
Arloeswr
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 22:35:00 -
[83] - Quote
OK,
So if I understand this correctly. They (CCP) just need to put in a check to see if they have the full amount of money in their wallet. If so great, if not then when the person tries to sell this, they go into a negative isk balance. This is what happens with real margin trading. |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 23:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
I think that allowing for a negative balance to be created when there are insufficient funds would be a very good mechanic. I am not all that concerned about protecting people from being scammed but I do think that it would provide a level of riskiness that margin trading currently lacks. It would add something to the game if a trader had to weigh the benefits of leveraging himself for greater profit while being at risk of over-leveraging himself and being susceptible to incurring large debts due to overly risky behavior. |
Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
108
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 00:02:00 -
[85] - Quote
Arloeswr wrote:OK,
So if I understand this correctly. They (CCP) just need to put in a check to see if they have the full amount of money in their wallet. If so great, if not then when the person tries to sell this, they go into a negative isk balance. This is what happens with real margin trading.
Assuming the negative balance after margin trading fail mechanic, what about something like this: a trader puts in a buy order for, say, 500mil and doesn't have enough money to cover it after paying the 25%. Someone sells to this order, walks away with 500mil, the trader has a very negative balance, and the trader character gets biomassed to be replaced with another one. Free 500mil!
That sounds like it would be possible unless some other restrictions are introduced... |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 00:35:00 -
[86] - Quote
How I overlooked that possibility is beyond me. |
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 03:00:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sounds less like a "scam" and more like a complete abuse of game mechanics. |
Skye Aurorae
No Bull Ships
202
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 03:43:00 -
[88] - Quote
This is the kind of game mechanic abuse I would push CCP to fix, I don't think the existing CSM is that anxious to push for a fix since they're largely dominated by nullsec alliance members. I have no problems with scamming, but margin trading scams are abusing flaws in game mechanics, the intent of the margin trading skill was to allow you to leverage more buying power, not to allow this kind of scam. The skill should remain in the game, but the mechanics should be alterered, either the consequences for running out of capital should be far more severe, or, orders which cannot be completed should not be visible in the market.
If you think margin trading needs a fix then consider sending some votes my way. Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so.. Vote for Scott Manley / Skye Aurorae for CSM 7 An Expert in Dealing with Childish Arguments Over Toys. http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=458 |
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 09:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
... |
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 09:42:00 -
[90] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:This is the kind of game mechanic abuse I would push CCP to fix, I don't think the existing CSM is that anxious to push for a fix since they're largely dominated by nullsec alliance members. I have no problems with scamming, but margin trading scams are abusing flaws in game mechanics, the intent of the margin trading skill was to allow you to leverage more buying power, not to allow this kind of scam. The skill should remain in the game, but the mechanics should be alterered, either the consequences for running out of capital should be far more severe, or, orders which cannot be completed should not be visible in the market.
While negative balances would be nice it fails because of the potential to create isk out of nothing. The most workable change would be to require that the cash placed in escrow for an order is always sufficient to cover the minimum buy quantity, whenever a purchase happens more money is moved from the character's wallet into the escrow fund, and if there's insufficient cash then the order is cancelled at that point. This works nicely for buying piles of goods, the margin trading functionality remains intact in function, but it breaks down for the traditional MT scam mechanic. However, it also breaks down if you're buying single items, such as ships, then the escrow account needs to contain 100% of the cash, this is an acceptable compromise compared with people who have suggested removing the skill entirely.
If you think margin trading needs a fix then consider voting for me in the CSM Election.
Are you crazy? Ccp should not touch it, but they should give players a possibility to consult an agent to check the available escrow. Most ppl i scam send me mails like : "that was totally awesome" or "you got me there, have fun with the isk's :)" so no, ccp should definately not fix something that is not broken. It is one of the best lessons in life, if it is to good to be true, dont trust it. |
|
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 14:13:00 -
[91] - Quote
Lady Spink wrote:Skye Aurorae wrote:This is the kind of game mechanic abuse I would push CCP to fix, I don't think the existing CSM is that anxious to push for a fix since they're largely dominated by nullsec alliance members. I have no problems with scamming, but margin trading scams are abusing flaws in game mechanics, the intent of the margin trading skill was to allow you to leverage more buying power, not to allow this kind of scam. The skill should remain in the game, but the mechanics should be alterered, either the consequences for running out of capital should be far more severe, or, orders which cannot be completed should not be visible in the market.
While negative balances would be nice it fails because of the potential to create isk out of nothing. The most workable change would be to require that the cash placed in escrow for an order is always sufficient to cover the minimum buy quantity, whenever a purchase happens more money is moved from the character's wallet into the escrow fund, and if there's insufficient cash then the order is cancelled at that point. This works nicely for buying piles of goods, the margin trading functionality remains intact in function, but it breaks down for the traditional MT scam mechanic. However, it also breaks down if you're buying single items, such as ships, then the escrow account needs to contain 100% of the cash, this is an acceptable compromise compared with people who have suggested removing the skill entirely.
If you think margin trading needs a fix then consider voting for me in the CSM Election. Are you crazy? Ccp should not touch it, but they should give players a possibility to consult an agent to check the available escrow. Most ppl i scam send me mails like : "that was totally awesome" or "you got me there, have fun with the isk's :)" so no, ccp should definately not fix something that is not broken. It is one of the best lessons in life, if it is to good to be true, dont trust it.
Scamming is one thing, abuse of game mechanics is a completely different thing. This is not a scam. Stop comparing this **** to life.
If you idiots want to continually compare eve to real life then lets bring in another lesson from life, if you scam you go to jail and pay a heavy fine and can lose everything you own....oh wait..we dont want that lesson in eve...shut up and stop freakin comparing the two and justifying that because it can happen irl it should be able to happen in eve...because in rl you go to jail, nothing happens to you in eve, you just move to the next alt/scam.
Anyway, like I said, this is less of a scam and more of an abuse of game mechanics. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
299
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 19:48:00 -
[92] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it.
So here it is laid out, let there be no more guilt about it.
I think the reason this works is because:
1) It doesn't work the same as margin trading in the real world - yet ccp deceptively calls it "margin trading."
2) the actual way it works in the game is not explained in the game.
Until either point changes there will always be new people entering the game who misunderstand how "margin trading" works in game.
It may have been a "clever" scam the first time someone did it. But like the other 99% of eve scams that people keep spamming you no longer need to be clever.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
299
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 19:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:Arloeswr wrote:OK,
So if I understand this correctly. They (CCP) just need to put in a check to see if they have the full amount of money in their wallet. If so great, if not then when the person tries to sell this, they go into a negative isk balance. This is what happens with real margin trading. Assuming the negative balance after margin trading fail mechanic, what about something like this: a trader puts in a buy order for, say, 500mil and doesn't have enough money to cover it after paying the 25%. Someone sells to this order, walks away with 500mil, the trader has a very negative balance, and the trader character gets biomassed to be replaced with another one. Free 500mil! That sounds like it would be possible unless some other restrictions are introduced...
They could make it impossible to biomass a character with a negative balance. That would make things a bit tougher. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 20:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Ajita al Tchar wrote:Arloeswr wrote:OK,
So if I understand this correctly. They (CCP) just need to put in a check to see if they have the full amount of money in their wallet. If so great, if not then when the person tries to sell this, they go into a negative isk balance. This is what happens with real margin trading. Assuming the negative balance after margin trading fail mechanic, what about something like this: a trader puts in a buy order for, say, 500mil and doesn't have enough money to cover it after paying the 25%. Someone sells to this order, walks away with 500mil, the trader has a very negative balance, and the trader character gets biomassed to be replaced with another one. Free 500mil! That sounds like it would be possible unless some other restrictions are introduced... They could make it impossible to biomass a character with a negative balance. That would make things a bit tougher.
Negative money is not the way to fix this, because it's basically free money at that point.
Make it so you can't set a minimum required amount to "sell to you" if you're margin trading.
Basically make it so they can't have it set so that you have to sell all 5,000 units at once if full cash is not in the wallet. Make is so you can sell 1 item at a time to margin traders and it can't be set that you HAVE to sell all 5,000 units at once to get that price. This will fix it for the most part.
|
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 00:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
Strategos wrote:
Scamming is one thing, abuse of game mechanics is a completely different thing. This is not a scam. Stop comparing this **** to life.
If you idiots want to continually compare eve to real life then lets bring in another lesson from life, if you scam you go to jail and pay a heavy fine and can lose everything you own....oh wait..we dont want that lesson in eve...shut up and stop freakin comparing the two and justifying that because it can happen irl it should be able to happen in eve...because in rl you go to jail, nothing happens to you in eve, you just move to the next alt/scam.
Anyway, like I said, this is less of a scam and more of an abuse of game mechanics.
Are you kidding? Irl the margin trading scam would reveal dumb people who have no clue about the markets (like all our pension fund managers). No mortgage vehicle broker has been put to jail while they are masters of margin trading scamming.
There is no abuse of game mechanics at all. It is very simple. Dont buy anything you dont need and dont press the advanced trading button unless you can affort all the isk in your wallet.There is also an other rule in eve: dont undock if tears will fill your eyes when your ship does not survive your journey (take a cheaper ship)
Besides that the thrill ppl have when they believe they are going to make huge profit in 10 seconds and the tears they have 5seconds later, that will keep them hooked to eve. |
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 00:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
David Forge wrote:I think that allowing for a negative balance to be created when there are insufficient funds would be a very good mechanic. I am not all that concerned about protecting people from being scammed but I do think that it would provide a level of riskiness that margin trading currently lacks. It would add something to the game if a trader had to weigh the benefits of leveraging himself for greater profit while being at risk of over-leveraging himself and being susceptible to incurring large debts due to overly risky behavior.
This would make me gazillionair in 5 minutes.
Please csm put this through :)
If you dont have one, Build alt, train 12. Days, transfer alll your cash place buy order for something for all your money for example if you have 80 billion. You make a buy order of 404% x80bil of a type-d blabla module. Order says: 242bil is the possible buy order for 1000 of these units.
Take main toon, selll 1000 of these units for a total of 242bil. Boom money quadrupled!
Go to alt acc make new toon (dont bio the first one, that is illegal) and repeat. 242bilx4 .. ... Etc |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
739
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 08:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
As has been stated before, unless you completely break how the margin trading skill works - there is no fix for this and it will always be a "buyer beware" issue.
The people who fall for this are those who get greedy. Who don't stop and look at the market graph, or check other sources of information. Which serves as a very good lesson about one of the top rules in EvE - "if it looks too good to be true, it's a scam".
If you got bitten by the scam, congratulations, hopefully you learned something as a result.
The only reasonable adjustment that CCP *might* make would be to color-code or hide buy orders which cannot currently be filled due to lack of funds in the wallet. But that may have negative effects on the database performance and not be worth the trouble.
|
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 18:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lady Spink wrote:Strategos wrote:
Scamming is one thing, abuse of game mechanics is a completely different thing. This is not a scam. Stop comparing this **** to life.
If you idiots want to continually compare eve to real life then lets bring in another lesson from life, if you scam you go to jail and pay a heavy fine and can lose everything you own....oh wait..we don't want that lesson in eve...shut up and stop freaking comparing the two and justifying that because it can happen irl it should be able to happen in eve...because irl you go to jail, nothing happens to you in eve, you just move to the next alt/scam.
Anyway, like I said, this is less of a scam and more of an abuse of game mechanics.
Are you kidding? Irl the margin trading scam would reveal dumb people who have no clue about the markets (like all our pension fund managers). No mortgage vehicle broker has been put to jail while they are masters of margin trading scamming. There is no abuse of game mechanics at all. It is very simple. Don't buy anything you don't need and don't press the advanced trading button unless you can afford to loose all the isk in your wallet.There is also an other rule in eve: don't un-dock if tears will fill your eyes when your ship does not survive your journey (take a cheaper ship) Besides that the thrill ppl have when they believe they are going to make huge profit in 10 seconds and the tears they have 5seconds later, that will keep them hooked to eve.
You're an idiot for having no idea how margin trading works IRL while trying to argue about it's legitimacy in EVE. There is no risk for the one putting up buy orders, at all, in EVE. In RL the risks go both ways, you can make a large profit, or you can sink into a hole you can't get out of, which is why suicide rates are what they are in the business.
Just stop. You will never win this ******** argument. Ever.
The issue of margin trading abuse (not a scam, but an abuse of game mechanics) needs to be addressed. End of story. |
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 19:02:00 -
[99] - Quote
Strategos wrote:
You're an idiot for having no idea how margin trading works IRL while trying to argue about it's legitimacy in EVE. There is no risk for the one putting up buy orders, at all, in EVE. In RL the risks go both ways, you can make a large profit, or you can sink into a hole you can't get out of, which is why suicide rates are what they are in the business.
Just stop. You will never win this ******** argument. Ever.
The issue of margin trading abuse (not a scam, but an abuse of game mechanics) needs to be addressed. End of story.
No, the story just begins. Once upon a time, in the US. people bought houses. blablablabl... jadajaajjajdaja.... the mortgage vehicle companies + the rating offices (all in the hands of US banks) had no risk at all. (just like margin trading)
anyways, you cant end a discussion because you believe that you are the only one with the correct answer. If this would be a regime, you could be compared with the north korean leader. not sure if you want to be associated with that. (ingame ofc, everybody would)
Margin trading mechanics can not be abused. it is NOT possible. Eve Chat however should be removed from the game, because you are always right and there should be no discussion or communication. this would immediate clear up the scamming texts. so, good idea for you, go for it! |
Arloeswr
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 01:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
Lady Spink wrote:Strategos wrote:
You're an idiot for having no idea how margin trading works IRL while trying to argue about it's legitimacy in EVE. There is no risk for the one putting up buy orders, at all, in EVE. In RL the risks go both ways, you can make a large profit, or you can sink into a hole you can't get out of, which is why suicide rates are what they are in the business.
Just stop. You will never win this ******** argument. Ever.
The issue of margin trading abuse (not a scam, but an abuse of game mechanics) needs to be addressed. End of story.
No, the story just begins. Once upon a time, in the US. people bought houses. blablablabl... jadajaajjajdaja.... the mortgage vehicle companies + the rating offices (all in the hands of US banks) had no risk at all. (just like margin trading) anyways, you cant end a discussion because you believe that you are the only one with the correct answer. If this would be a regime, you could be compared with the north korean leader. not sure if you want to be associated with that. (ingame ofc, everybody would) Margin trading mechanics can not be abused. it is NOT possible. Eve Chat however should be removed from the game, because you are always right and there should be no discussion or communication. this would immediate clear up the scamming texts. so, good idea for you, go for it!
The Mortgage melt down has nothing to do with margin trading... In real life Margin Trading is basically like a credit card. You are given a loan (technically a Margin Account), to buy or sell a stock/bond/whatever and you have to pay that back, or you go into debt. Which has very real consequences financially speaking. Like they take all your assets that your account holds to make up the difference.
Which is why I made the comment about putting your wallet into a negative balance that had to be paid back.
If they made the cost of the skill for Margin Trading a lot higher than it is right now, upwards of a few hundreds of millions, and then implemented a negative isk balance if someone tried the scam. They'd have to do a pretty large scam, in order for creating a character, training it up, running the scam, then deleting and remaking a new character. It wouldn't become a fees-able scam unless you're talking large amounts. The other thing is that if that doesn't work your isk balance should be checked if someone tries to sell you the goods, and if there is not enough isk to fulfill the order it the sale gets rejected. |
|
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 11:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
Arloeswr wrote: The Mortgage melt down has nothing to do with margin trading... In real life Margin Trading is basically like a credit card. You are given a loan (technically a Margin Account), to buy or sell a stock/bond/whatever and you have to pay that back, or you go into debt. Which has very real consequences financially speaking. Like they take all your assets that your account holds to make up the difference.
Which is why I made the comment about putting your wallet into a negative balance that had to be paid back.
If they made the cost of the skill for Margin Trading a lot higher than it is right now, upwards of a few hundreds of millions, and then implemented a negative isk balance if someone tried the scam. They'd have to do a pretty large scam, in order for creating a character, training it up, running the scam, then deleting and remaking a new character. It wouldn't become a fees-able scam unless you're talking large amounts. The other thing is that if that doesn't work your isk balance should be checked if someone tries to sell you the goods, and if there is not enough isk to fulfill the order it the sale gets rejected.
I'm am not talking about the mortgate meltdown, i am talking about the way the US banks used systems to sell "secure" mortgages to Europe/Japan (their biggest allies) while this was just a big margin trading scam because the "security" (escrow) was gone once they wanted the product (money).
Anyways, even if you make the skill 5 billion and allow negative ISK, i would make a gazillion ISK within 1 hour.
The clear point is, that there are not many people who really understand how the margin trading is working. and even less know how to setup a good margin trading scamm.
Everyone on this topic who says that a negative wallet should be allowed, is dumb, analphabetic or just ignorant. sorry to say it this way, but there is no other option. |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 17:56:00 -
[102] - Quote
Question: Lets say i see a buy order for...the best named ECM module, like WHite noise.
Lets say the average price in the region is 1mil isk pu. I see a buy order for 300 (min) White noice ecm modules for 5 mil. I fulfill this order. THe modules are no longer in my hanger, i paid the borkerage fee, but never receive the isk for the fulfilled order. Is that part of this "scam" or is it something else? |
Aebe Amraen
Logolepsy
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 18:18:00 -
[103] - Quote
If you're paying a brokerage fee when fulfilling a buy order, you're doing it wrong
The modules will probably reappear after downtime.
Finally, in the future, if you see an order for 5x the standard price with a minimum of 300... don't try to fill that order. The probability that it's a scam is 99.44%. |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 19:20:00 -
[104] - Quote
And if those modules do not reappear? |
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 01:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
BearJews wrote:And if those modules do not reappear?
Check your sell orders. |
Lady Spink
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:13:00 -
[106] - Quote
Aebe Amraen wrote: Finally, in the future, if you see an order for 5x the standard price with a minimum of 300... don't try to fill that order. The probability that it's a scam is 99.44%.
nono, make sure to buy the same items for a lower price and try to sell them to that order! (insta profit)! |
Stephen Fleck
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.03.13 08:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
I ran into this scam a few days ago while station trading in Jita.I normally make it a point not to leave the station but the profit margin was just to good for only 3 or 4 jumps.Had it been just in 1 station i would have smelled bullsh#t, but they had it(research tools) spread through 3 separate stations.Im sure you veteran traders are laughing at me for not smelling bullsh#t anyways and im cool with that i deserve it.When all was said and done i was only at a 68mil loss and had i gone with my initial plan it have been much worse.I think if your quick enough and there are still overpriced sale orders of said item in jita you can possibly make a portion of your loss back.That being said i cant help but give a pat on the back of the rascal who burned me. |
Fyor
Fyor.org
0
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Posted - 2012.04.03 07:35:00 -
[108] - Quote
Boris Ginnungagap wrote:Scammers are worthless scum, just like pirates.
Interesting quote...
The only way this scam works, is because some greedy BUYER wants to speculate, but doesn't do their homework.
You're really missing the point of the OP: Inform the world, so they don't fall for it...
fwiw. |
Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.04.03 09:12:00 -
[109] - Quote
Could this be "fixed" if u would allow to let the seller go into negative wallet once, with the limitation that u cant delete a character with a negative wallet from your account? This would limit this scam, since it would net be feasible anymore, while still keeping the Margin Trading advantages of the skill. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.04.08 20:35:00 -
[110] - Quote
Sounds like more of an exploit than a scam. Why isn't this bannable? |
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Ben Bernank
The Goldman Sachs
1
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Posted - 2012.04.08 21:34:00 -
[111] - Quote
Andy DelGardo wrote:Could this be "fixed" if u would allow to let the seller go into negative wallet once, with the limitation that u cant delete a character with a negative wallet from your account? This would limit this scam, since it would net be feasible anymore, while still keeping the Margin Trading advantages of the skill.
This is the best solution. I seriously hope they allow negative account balances. I'll make a few accounts, and burn them all a trillion isk a piece in the red to my main. Then I can BUY ALL THE TRITANIUM. |
Balcony Jumper
Absinthe Solutions Aurora Irae
9
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Posted - 2012.04.09 15:58:00 -
[112] - Quote
If you've been the victim of a margin trade scam and want revenge... here's some stuff you can do to attempt it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91204&find=unread |
Aronova Arji
Violent Alternatives C0NVICTED
0
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Posted - 2012.04.13 00:10:00 -
[113] - Quote
So the scammer gets their escrow refunded when the order is cancelled due to lack of funds? That's certainly not how escrow is supposed to work. The whole purpose of escrow is to ensure funds are available for payment so at the very least the escrowed funds should be forfeited when the order fails. Why the hell would a bond agent return escrowed funds to someone who set up a fake transaction with them? They wouldn't, they'd just keep the money.
Escrow should be returned when an order is cancelled or expired but if it fails due to lack of funds it should be forfeit.
It should go: 1. Buyer puts up buy order and pays escrow 2. Seller attempts to fill buy order 3. Buyer has inadequate money, order is cancelled and escrow is forfeit 4. Escrow Agent pays escrow funds to Seller for whatever portion of the order they could buy at specified price. 5. Items now owned by Escrow Agent are removed from game.
TL;DR Escrow should be forfeited when an order fails due to lack of funds |
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