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irishFour
Mobile Meth Lab Monkeys
57
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Posted - 2013.01.03 21:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
What is it.
If some one were using a program, and i know that they are out there, that would duplicate your commands among many clients, but you were at your computer in full control, is that against the eula.
Is there a botting thread that defines or describes different forms botting, what is and isn't allowed for 3rd party applications. I remember one time, a long time ago, while living in highsec. I witnessed 15 ravens all docking at the same time, and the guys name were all one number apart.
Let me know irish
I like to have my cake and eat it too |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3253
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Posted - 2013.01.03 21:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
What you are describing is multiboxing, and yes even software assisted it is fine as long as someone is at the keyboard directing the activity.
I'm afraid I don't have a link handy for you. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12458
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Posted - 2013.01.03 21:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
A solution that automates and generates control input without any player action.
Multi-boxing software is actually very clearly not a problem, since every input is player-driven. The grey area is rather at what point a normal keyboard macro, like the ones you can get from even a very simple software or many game-focused keyboards, start crossing that line of "without player input": yes, the player still pushed the key, so there's player input, but if that creates a complex series of 20 different actions, we're getting awfully closeGǪ For most purposes, the line is crossed once you start introducing timers and delays because the action generated is more complex than just mashing they keyboard GÇö you are no longer picking and choosing when the keys are pressed; the macro is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Doctor Grugon
GRUMPS RESEARCH TEAM Army of Dark Shadows
2
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Posted - 2013.01.03 22:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with Tippia. As soon as software starts making the decision when to perform an action your botting. Are you standing where you should be? |
Jamyl Khanid
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2013.01.03 22:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
They used to be called a Macro.
Many games that required you to harvest material at a stationary point for hours on end in fact incorporated a macro builder in to the game. SWG being one of the bigger ones. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1387
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Posted - 2013.01.03 22:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
a bot in context of gaming is a program controlling your game. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Kairos Antilles
Dragonlady Industries
38
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Posted - 2013.01.03 22:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Doctor Grugon wrote:I agree with Tippia. As soon as software starts making the decision when to perform an action your botting.
Pretty much this ^ . |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1054
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 22:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
1. File a petition. 2. Let's not confuse a keyboard "shortcut" mechanism, like a Naga or a Belkin N52 (which is OK, according to a GM I petitioned a couple years ago) with something that substitutes YOU performing an action. Using something that automatically warps you out of a belt when a new person appears in Local is against the EULA, as explained to me.
Multiboxing is NOT botting, by any stretch of the imagination. Using a macro, for example, to control duplicate actions against multiple running clients IS against the EULA, as explained to me by a GM.
Ignore the speculation (including mine here), and just petition it. Multiboxing is NOT botting, despite what high sec gankers try to say on the Forums. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." -á --- Sorlac |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2269
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Programs like ISBoxer have been explicitly whitelisted by CCP so long as they're just broadcasting your commands to multiple clients.
CCP used to have a ban on doing so until a guy showed proof that he emulated the effects of ISBoxer entirely via hardware (that is to say, dowels and packing tape).
https://sites.google.com/site/khromtor/oldrigs This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. -á Back Again. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
260
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Doctor Grugon wrote:I agree with Tippia. As soon as software starts making the decision when to perform an action your botting.
Except the software actaully don't decide anything but rather follow a strict set of rules which were generated by the player. If you set the bot to empty your cargohold after every cycle of ice mining, it only follow the rules and never take any decision. That only show how silly getting a real precise definition of what is botting and what is not is. You can always skirt around the rule extremely far to make it useless. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12460
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Except the software actaully don't decide anything but rather follow a strict set of rules which were generated by the player. GǪlike all bots. There is no real distinction there. In fact, the presence of those rules is what makes it a decision: it's not just Gǣdo AGǥ but rather the decision between "do A if X, otherwise do BGǥ. It may be a ridiculously simple one, but it's still a decision.
Quote:If you set the bot to empty your cargohold after every cycle of ice mining, it only follow the rules and never take any decision. Sure it does: -ÿhave 180 seconds passed, Y/N? GåÆ Dump cargo / IdleGÇ¥.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
40
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Duplicating actions to multiple client is multiboxing (not botting) and it is not against the rules. Thankfully.
Here is a link to an old forum post you might be interested in :
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10 |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
902
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
A bot is anything that automates a decision the player would make. That's the simplest definition I can think of. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
207
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
The definition of botting is what the Honey Botting Colalition does |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
260
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Except the software actaully don't decide anything but rather follow a strict set of rules which were generated by the player. GǪlike all bots. There is no real distinction there. In fact, the presence of those rules is what makes it a decision: it's not just GÇ£do AGÇ¥ but rather the decision between "do A if X, otherwise do BGÇ¥. It may be a ridiculously simple one, but it's still a decision. Quote:If you set the bot to empty your cargohold after every cycle of ice mining, it only follow the rules and never take any decision. Sure it does: -ÿhave 180 seconds passed, Y/N? GåÆ Dump cargo and reset timer / IdleGÇ¥. If there was no decision to make, there would be no need for the rule. It would just be GÇ£GåÆ Dump cargoGÇ¥.
They can exist both way. The most basic one would only follow a basic command of wait 180 seconds then dump. Your example is also right tho where you could set a shorter timer to always check if the other one has expired to do the action. We use both emthod at my work to do scrip for computer installation but we would usually only use the second one to check for another condition than a second timer... Making a command run hundred of time to check if another one is done is silly for a miner when we can know the exact cycle time between the dump requirement. You don't even have to make the software make a check sicne you know the cycle will be done after 180 seconds.
Thats why I usually prefer a broad definition where you just tell people "If you put time into automating it, it's most likey bad and at risk of a ban". What all the stuff we can come up with on the hardware front now, splitting hair over what kind of automation should be tolerated and which one should not is stupid imo. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2269
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Posted - 2013.01.03 23:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:The definition of botting is what the Honey Botting Colalition does
Pales in comparison to what occurs in the space of your glorious alliance. http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/01.jpg
56% of all bots. Well done. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. -á Back Again. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12460
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 00:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Thats why I usually prefer a broad definition where you just tell people "If you put time into automating it, it's most likey bad and at risk of a ban". What all the stuff we can come up with on the hardware front now, splitting hair over what kind of automation should be tolerated and which one should not is stupid imo. Well, sure. My lazy definition is that all automation is disallowed and that anything that could be done by simply faceplanting onto the keyboard (with some unique facial features and bone structure, granted) does not count as automation. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
260
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Posted - 2013.01.04 00:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Thats why I usually prefer a broad definition where you just tell people "If you put time into automating it, it's most likey bad and at risk of a ban". What all the stuff we can come up with on the hardware front now, splitting hair over what kind of automation should be tolerated and which one should not is stupid imo. Well, sure. My lazy definition is that all automation is disallowed and that anything that could be done by simply faceplanting onto the keyboard (with some unique facial features and bone structure, granted) does not count as automation.
I guess I can aim with my nose pretty well if I put enough time into it. Bonus points for laptop for much easyer mouse usage.
More seriously, the real problem is how hard it is now to detect an actual good bot. Thier action are not as badly hidden as they were before. |
leoplusma
Delfus Inc. HumAnnoyeD
213
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Posted - 2013.01.04 00:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
wikipedia gives us a first idea of what bot is.
Bots are software applications that run automated tasks over the Internet. Typically, bots perform tasks that are both simple and structurally repetitive, at a much higher rate than would be possible for a human alone.
now lets think for a second. whats the common thing between a 40 mining bots setup in exhumers and 40 exhumers in a multiboxing system?
40 accounts. 'Nough said.
truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out. there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing. but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro. to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows?
so i guess this gives us :
Bots in EVE are considered those software applications that run automated tasks in ONE account, such as key macro sequences. Typically, bots that perform tasks that are both simple and structurally repetitive to MANY accounts, it is considered as 'multiboxing' although they do work at a much higher rate than would be possible for a human alone.
and to set things straight, i do love robots. :)
leo |
Hannah Flex
Elite Market PvP Consortium
58
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Posted - 2013.01.04 00:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
irishFour wrote:I witnessed 15 ravens all docking at the same time, and the guys name were all one number apart
Look we all know that the L4 bots in The Forge are all using Vargurs.
I read it on en24
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2270
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Posted - 2013.01.04 01:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
leoplusma wrote:truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out. there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing. but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro. to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows?
Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. -á Back Again. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1058
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:leoplusma wrote:truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out. there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing. but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro. to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows? Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee.
Yeah, that one operation 2 years ago sure showed us!!
Hey, wait a second... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." -á --- Sorlac |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12460
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee. Yeah, that one operation 2 years ago sure showed us!! Yes. That one and the ones that followed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3095
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
irishFour wrote:What is it.
If some one were using a program, and i know that they are out there, that would duplicate your commands among many clients, but you were at your computer in full control, is that against the eula. That has already been explicitly confirmed as acceptable by CCP.
irishFour wrote:Is there a botting thread that defines or describes different forms botting, what is and isn't allowed for 3rd party applications. I remember one time, a long time ago, while living in highsec. I witnessed 15 ravens all docking at the same time, and the guys name were all one number apart.
Let me know irish
That's not sufficient to determine botting. That person could have very easily been using a multiboxing program to send his commands to multiple clients on the same machine simultaneously. Again, CCP has explicitly allowed this.
Botting is when you're using a program that is capable of issuing commands independent of user input. The program doesn't necessarily need the ability to make decisions (which most ratting/mission bots would require), it could be as simple as a macro that presses ctrl + up arrow every few minutes to keep spamming Jita local with scam contracts. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3095
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
leoplusma wrote:truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out. there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing. but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro. to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows? CCP claims (and we have no reason to believe otherwise) that the server collects information on user behavior, and uses this information to determine whether certain users are bots. For example, the intervals between commands issued by a human would be fairly irregular, whereas a bot that wasn't explicitly designed otherwise would issue commands at very precise intervals which can be easily timed and reported by the server. If a miner releases drones exactly 3 seconds after rats appear in its belt, and does so several times consistently, then such behavior is more indicative of a bot.
Obviously it wouldn't be terribly difficult to modify the bot add some variability to this behavior (I could say, release drones at 3 seconds plus a random number between negative two and two seconds), so bot creation and bot detection become something of an arms race. Bot programmers probably have to continue to find new ways to make their tools more lifelike or hard to detect, and CCP has to come up with new ways to distinguish botting players from multiboxers.
The point is, the number of ships being controlled doesn't really factor in here, what really factors in is the behavior of whatever is controlling the ships, whether that's an actual person or a computer program. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Sidrat Flush
Eve Industrial Corp
118
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Posted - 2013.01.04 05:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.
Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.
The new home of the Eve Industrial Organiser is here. Enjoy the first in a series, EIO:Refinery now http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Sidrat/ Read about it http://eveindustrialorganiser.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6229
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Posted - 2013.01.04 06:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Multiboxing is NOT botting, despite what high sec gankers try to say on the Forums.
Considering that many hisec gankers multibox, well, this is obviously more nonsense you're making up. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3177
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Posted - 2013.01.04 06:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sidrat Flush wrote:It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible. James 315 and the New Order are trying to turn the tides of bot aspirants. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2274
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 14:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sidrat Flush wrote:It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.
Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.
Goonswarm did turn mining into a mini game for extra yield for a couple months. The miners whined, and CCP showed that they wanted to reward the bot-like behavior and buffed barges. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. -á Back Again. |
Sidrat Flush
Eve Industrial Corp
120
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Posted - 2013.01.04 15:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Sidrat Flush wrote:It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.
Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.
Goonswarm did turn mining into a mini game for extra yield for a couple months. The miners whined, and CCP showed that they wanted to reward the bot-like behavior and buffed barges.
Oh yes very true. The New Order is amazing and well written and has gone some way to make mining an interactive activity, if only CCP coild bite the bulet and change the entire mechanics of mining and mineral acquisitions.
Scannable omly grav sites. Yes - keep veldspar ore in 1.0 systems maybe 0.9 as well so that the newest of all alts and players are introduced to the mining.
Miming Laser Path Routes. The player draws a route on the ore which should follow a vein for maximum yield. Just an idea off the top of my head.
The new home of the Eve Industrial Organiser is here. Enjoy the first in a series, EIO:Refinery now http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Sidrat/ Read about it http://eveindustrialorganiser.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0 |
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