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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
251
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Posted - 2013.03.13 09:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Maybe that looks good on its own, but once you compare it to something like a heavy pulse harbinger with scorch. You get a much better sniping boat that can also go in a brawl when it wants to, doesn't die horribly if a frig manages to get under its guns, has a medium neut, Much more DPS, Much better tracking/damage projection, has more tank, has the same speed, and can have a ton of drones depending on what you like.
The cane isn't like horrible after the nerf, but there are little reasons to fly it over the other options out there. So in comparison to its competition.... it sucks. The cool feature of arties is alpha. And you have a much higher maximum range than pulse.
You can't get everything, or else, what would be the point of everything else ? |
Kagura Nikon
Emptiness.
13
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Posted - 2013.03.13 11:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Balance is what have been done, the simple fact of getting something from it doesn't make it any worse but a balanced ship.
Errr.... going to have to stop you on this one champ. While I strongly do agree with the nerfs to the hurricane, you truly cannot say that it did not get worse (which you did in the above quote) than prior to the changes... The ship has lost a slot, gained mass, and has lost fitting. While these changes were most certainly needed, it's undeniable that it is worse than it was before...
Exactly! All I was stating is that it was nerfed, it became worse and that is a FACT. That statement is nowhere related or even touches the subject of inter ship balance. People really need to learn to read. |
Alara IonStorm
4558
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Posted - 2013.03.13 12:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Exactly! All I was stating is that it was nerfed, it became worse and that is a FACT. That statement is nowhere related or even touches the subject of inter ship balance. People really need to learn to read.
No what you said was that it was nerfed more then the others. It can be equally implied that you meant nerfed below them from a superior position as it can be that meant simply lost more from a position above. Not helping the clarity of this point is the fact that you listed fits still possible that you thought were impossible and called the nerf overboard.
Of course instead of clarifying if you meant different what you actually said learn to read and learn math. Something I found charming since it is very rare to find someone willing to use insults to try and clear misconceptions on the EVE O forums instead of the polite discussion which we were previously engaging in. Almost as rare as sarcasm. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
251
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Posted - 2013.03.13 14:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Exactly! All I was stating is that it was nerfed, it became worse and that is a FACT. That statement is nowhere related or even touches the subject of inter ship balance. People really need to learn to read. Claiming something is a fact don't make it true ; in fact, that don't even make it an argument. |
Kagura Nikon
Emptiness.
13
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Posted - 2013.03.13 15:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Exactly! All I was stating is that it was nerfed, it became worse and that is a FACT. That statement is nowhere related or even touches the subject of inter ship balance. People really need to learn to read. Claiming something is a fact don't make it true ; in fact, that don't even make it an argument.
claiming with hard data does, It has less PG, less agility and less slots. Factual. Therefore it is a fact that it got nerfed! Stop making yourself look an obnoxious forum troll please. |
Kagura Nikon
Emptiness.
13
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Posted - 2013.03.13 15:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Exactly! All I was stating is that it was nerfed, it became worse and that is a FACT. That statement is nowhere related or even touches the subject of inter ship balance. People really need to learn to read.
No what you said was that it was nerfed more then the others. It can be equally implied that you meant nerfed below them from a superior position as it can be that meant simply lost more from a position above. Not helping the clarity of this point is the fact that you listed fits still possible that you thought were impossible and called the nerf overboard. Of course instead of clarifying if you meant different what you actually said learn to read and learn math. Something I found charming since it is very rare to find someone willing to use insults to try and clear misconceptions on the EVE O forums instead of the polite discussion which we were previously engaging in. Almost as rare as sarcasm.
When YOU IMPLIED something, you do form your own accords and imagination therefore you cannot take anyone else responsible for that extrapolation but yourself. I did not say anywhere that it was made WORSE than other BC. I was not the one that start attacking or addressing other posts therefor I am not the one that needs to focus into clarify anything. My statement remains, complete and self contained on its own words, none of them including any statement of my part that supports the conclusions people invented in order to address on an aggressive manner my message. |
Alara IonStorm
4561
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: When YOU IMPLIED something, you do form your own accords and imagination therefore you cannot take anyone else responsible for that extrapolation but yourself.
Two equally plausible ways to take a statement with no evidence in either direction does not equal responsibility though responsibility to what exactly is unclear since I did not insult you. You insulted me for misunderstanding your post when left with no way to have known what you meant.
Kagura Nikon wrote: I was not the one that start attacking or addressing other posts therefor I am not the one that needs to focus into clarify anything.
Strong words seeing as I did not levy a single insult to you. In fact you addressed my post first and I explained to you without insults that a 425mm Shield Cane Fit was still easy to fit. When you told me that I was wrong and the Artillery Cane could not be fit without giving up another low I explained how again without insult.
You do not need to clarify anything but you did clarify what you meant which I accepted as a misunderstanding but you did so with insults in what was once an interesting discussion.
Kagura Nikon wrote: My statement remains, complete and self contained on its own words, none of them including any statement of my part that supports the conclusions people invented in order to address on an aggressive manner my message.
Neither do they support the conclusion the other way. Still you make insults instead of discussion. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
534
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Posted - 2013.03.13 23:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Maybe that looks good on its own, but once you compare it to something like a heavy pulse harbinger with scorch. You get a much better sniping boat that can also go in a brawl when it wants to, doesn't die horribly if a frig manages to get under its guns, has a medium neut, Much more DPS, Much better tracking/damage projection, has more tank, has the same speed, and can have a ton of drones depending on what you like.
The cane isn't like horrible after the nerf, but there are little reasons to fly it over the other options out there. So in comparison to its competition.... it sucks. The cool feature of arties is alpha. And you have a much higher maximum range than pulse. You can't get everything, or else, what would be the point of everything else ?
The problem isn't arties vs pulse lasers. Its hurricane vs other ships.
Whats the point of higher max range when the harby does more DPS at all ranges <50km? The cane only barely (and I mean barely) out dpsing the harb for a few KMs afterwards?
Sorry but high alpha isn't worth all the trade-off of all the things it does considerably worse compared to the harb. I'd take less alpha anyday with the options that a PULSE harb offers. |
Namdor
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2013.03.13 23:23:00 -
[39] - Quote
This thread is a pretty hilarious exercise in derp.
"It was NERFED MORE THAN THE OTHERS!"
"Well, yeah, it was balanced."
"But surely you must see that in doing so, they NERFED IT MORE THAN THE OTHERS!"
"Well, yes, but it had been much better than the others, so required a larger reduction to bring into balance. Now it's more or less balanced."
"But... but it was NERFED MORE THAN THE OTHERS!"
Yes. Yes it was, because it was previously OP. That's how it works. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
300
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Posted - 2013.03.14 00:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
OH **** the cane is now balanced*!
* more or less on par with the other ships of its class and now has just as many reason not to fly vs other ships as it has to fly vs other ships
OH **** Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
254
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:The problem isn't arties vs pulse lasers. Its hurricane vs other ships. Whats the point of higher max range when the harby does more DPS at all ranges <50km? The cane only barely (and I mean barely) out dpsing the harb for a few KMs afterwards? Sorry but high alpha isn't worth all the trade-off of all the things it does considerably worse compared to the harb. I'd take less alpha anyday with the options that a PULSE harb offers. You are neglecting alpha advantage. You may prefer a pulse harbinger, though the arty cane will have a better dps at 35km and above (hint : tremor, titanium sabot, proton). Beam harby indeed have better dps than the cane all way long, but again, the selling point of arties is alpha, not dps. If arties had alpha AND dps, they would be OP. Arty Hurricane have almost 3 times the alpha of Beam of Pulse Harbinger.
Hurricane is also a lot faster than the harbinger ; again something you may not consider but a clear advantage nonetheless. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
536
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 20:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Diesel47 wrote:The problem isn't arties vs pulse lasers. Its hurricane vs other ships. Whats the point of higher max range when the harby does more DPS at all ranges <50km? The cane only barely (and I mean barely) out dpsing the harb for a few KMs afterwards? Sorry but high alpha isn't worth all the trade-off of all the things it does considerably worse compared to the harb. I'd take less alpha anyday with the options that a PULSE harb offers. You are neglecting alpha advantage. You may prefer a pulse harbinger, though the arty cane will have a better dps at 35km and above (hint : tremor, titanium sabot, proton). Beam harby indeed have better dps than the cane all way long, but again, the selling point of arties is alpha, not dps. If arties had alpha AND dps, they would be OP. Arty Hurricane have almost 3 times the alpha of Beam of Pulse Harbinger. Hurricane is also a lot faster than the harbinger ; again something you may not consider but a clear advantage nonetheless.
You exaggerate a little. Its more like 40kms and above when you switch ammos. Which takes 10 seconds to do. How much DPS do you get with faction proton? Like 200? And 1.6k alpha? Unimpressive.
The cane isn't "a lot" faster than a harbinger unless you drop some much needed low slots to fit a nano. I wouldn't get rid of the single tracking enhancer... Its very beneficial. Nor the damage control. Can't remove the reactor control because then the fit won't work... So I guess it has to be one of the three gyrostablizers. Now you've got a ship that is noticeably faster. The agility for both ships remains the same however (which was another nerf they gave it )
Now you've dedicated 3 low slots to non-damage mods on the cane while the harbinger only has two. Which is much more typical and arguably better.
I didn't neglect the alpha advantage. I just said it didn't stand up to numerous advantages the harbinger had. Something you neglect. I'll list them for you.
-Full flight of medium & light drones. -No fitting mods required. -Better DPS at "normal" engagement ranges (point range). -Medium energy neut. -Ability to Instantly brawl or kite whenever (Instant ammo change). -Great DPS at brawl and kiting ranges. -Hugely better tracking.
Whats the cane have? -Barely better speed. -Alpha. -More damage at 40km+ with ammo change?
The only real benefit I see there is alpha. And like I said before, Alpha alone isn't going to cut it when compared to all the advantages you get with the harbinger. |
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