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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
0
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Posted - 2013.01.09 20:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello! I am quite new to the game and am interested in joining my friends on their L4 mission runs (they are all flying T2 fitted navy ravens + 1 Harbinger). What I was mostly interested in was a community suggestion for a Caldari support ship that could survive the occasional lock down in L4 PVE (not fleet boosting). I'd like to consider these options for "support":
primary desires: - range extension / target painting - shield repair / armor repair - a way to occasionally leech bounty.
secondary: - webbing for frigs - salvage/loot sucking
Miscellaneous tertiary desire: -can swap fit for pvp support -can swap fit for low sec/WH explore solo
considering a drake as an all rounded ship. I dont have the ISK to look for anything > 100 mil but im sure i can buy low sell high my way up to purchase w/e you will suggest.
I would appreciate any constructive suggestions! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2598
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Posted - 2013.01.09 21:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd go with a Ferox. You shouldn't die and the instant damage from Rails is going to be a big deal with all those Ravens on the field.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
0
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Posted - 2013.01.09 21:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thank you for the reply :)
I was wondering what the advantages are of going hybrid turrets over missiles would be? If i ever fit for a solo seems that's all Caldari PVE is all about.
that, and i heard/read somewhere that rails kinda suck. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2598
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Posted - 2013.01.09 21:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rails aren't that great, it's true. The end game for Rails is probably Rail Rokh fleets and Naga fleets - both of which are very excellent. The Kronos isn't nearly as bad as people think, and it's actually quite a good little PVE ship. Blasters are pretty pimp, also. Quite possibly my favorite PVP ship of all time is the Harpy. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
54
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Posted - 2013.01.09 21:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dr Niz wrote:Hello! I am quite new to the game and am interested in joining my friends on their L4 mission runs (they are all flying T2 fitted navy ravens + 1 Harbinger). What I was mostly interested in was a community suggestion for a Caldari support ship that could survive the occasional lock down in L4 PVE (not fleet boosting). I'd like to consider these options for "support":
I would appreciate any constructive suggestions!
I really think you're over-doing and over-thinking the L4s.
For one, there aren't really any "lock-downs" in a L4 that would hamper a group of CNRs . . .
Second, a group of CNRs in a L4 wouldn't need a support ship.
But, if you want to have some practice, forget the Harbinger, use the CNRs, and have someone bring in a Basilisk . I mean geez, with 3 CNRs you could have 15 drones out there doing damage.
All in all, if you want to have fun, and just plow thru L4s, go for it. The missions will go very, very fast, and then what? . . . split the LPs and isk between 3-4 guys? not very profitable. (but maybe some fun)
Sorry.
-Jaz
PS: What will you be bringing to the table? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2598
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Posted - 2013.01.09 22:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jazmyn Stone wrote: I really think you're over-doing and over-thinking the L4s.
For one, there aren't really any "lock-downs" in a L4 that would hamper a group of CNRs . . .
Second, a group of CNRs in a L4 wouldn't need a support ship.
But, if you want to have some practice, forget the Harbinger, use the CNRs, and have someone bring in a Basilisk . I mean geez, with 3 CNRs you could have 15 drones out there doing damage.
All in all, if you want to have fun, and just plow thru L4s, go for it. The missions will go very, very fast, and then what? . . . split the LPs and isk between 3-4 guys? not very profitable. (but maybe some fun)
Sorry.
-Jaz
PS: What will you be bringing to the table?
I think you should try bringing a CNR to a gang with a couple of strong turret damage dealers. While it's not such a big deal if you're alone, the instant damage is a really big deal in group PVE.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
0
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Posted - 2013.01.09 22:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am not familiar with the term CNR. i'm going to assume it's an acronym alluding to the ravens.
really i'm aiming towards having fun with my friends while we grind up the isk to pvp comfortably as a group and that i have the isk to solo explore in low sec/wh space. we have several new players (the guy in the harbinger is new, for example), and i'm looking to fulfill a role that wont limit me too much in future SP. L4 missioning is the fastest and most reliable way to get ISK while training towards ships/weapons i'd probably use eventually anyways.
I have been researching the hybrid turrets and it seems that rails are not ideal for pve at all while have seen decent arguments between launchers and turrets for pvp (which favor the turret damage due to split damage types and 0 travel time).
edit: might just have to flip a coin on the path, i suppose. heavy missiles seem very promising for clearing sleeper camps though. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2598
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Posted - 2013.01.09 22:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rails are much better than people give them credit for, but they are lacking in some areas. In particular, they will do so much better than lasers against Guristas/Angels. I don't think people properly appreciate the advantage of Kin/Thm over EM/Thm for PVE. But if you're going into WH space, that's not nearly as big of a deal. Train lasers and don't look back.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
0
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Posted - 2013.01.09 23:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
okay i will give rails a go and see how well i do. thank you for all your input. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
561
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Posted - 2013.01.09 23:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Eww rails, eww ferox.
If you want to fly a BC and mission with buddies, make it a Tornado or Oracle. You'll do more dps than your friends in Raven and Harbinger combined. Just watch for rat aggro.
Naga fails due to rails. The racial prerequisites for other race BC is only like a day crosstraining, so why gimp yourself. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2601
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Posted - 2013.01.10 00:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Eww rails, eww ferox. If you want to fly a BC and mission with buddies, make it a Tornado or Oracle. You'll do more dps than your friends in Raven and Harbinger combined. Just watch for rat aggro. Naga fails due to rails. The racial prerequisites for other race BC is only like a day crosstraining, so why gimp yourself.
The Rail Naga's actually quite amazing, and quite durable compared to the other Tier 3s. Again, I will say train for lasers if you want to go to WH space. And the Oracle is mad pimping amazing.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
57
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Posted - 2013.01.10 00:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dr Niz wrote:I am not familiar with the term CNR. i'm going to assume it's an acronym alluding to the ravens.
edit: might just have to flip a coin on the path, i suppose. heavy missiles seem very promising for clearing sleeper camps though.
CNR - Caldari Navy Raven
With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)
Dr. Niz, I noticed that infact you are very new to EVE. It seems that going into L4's at this time you might want to put on hold. So in the short term, you should think of what you want now, and then what skills will you need to get you there. I'd go with missiles for the short term, and turrets in the long run.
I also remember reading somewhere, "just because you can fly a Raven, doesn't mean that you should."
Enjoy EVE and have fun.
-Jaz |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2604
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Posted - 2013.01.10 00:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jazmyn Stone wrote: With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)
Two small corrections: - Missiles also need help with their "tracking" via target painters, rigors, and flares. A standard Golem setup has 2 missile velocity rigs and 3 target painters. A standard CNR fit should sport at least 1-2 painters and 3 damage / damage application rigs. - Missile/turret DPS is the same only when solo (which is common). In gang situations a missile ship will lose a significant portion of its DPS to others applying damage before its missiles arrive. Entire ships will explode before your missiles arrive - this is one of the biggest reasons we don't see "sniping Ravens" despite the fact they would be quite good at it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
58
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Posted - 2013.01.10 01:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Jazmyn Stone wrote: With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)
Two small corrections: - Missiles also need help with their "tracking" via target painters, rigors, and flares. A standard Golem setup has 2 missile velocity rigs and 3 target painters. A standard CNR fit should sport at least 1-2 painters and 3 damage / damage application rigs. - Missile/turret DPS is the same only when solo (which is common). In gang situations a missile ship will lose a significant portion of its DPS to others applying damage before its missiles arrive. Entire ships will explode before your missiles arrive - this is one of the biggest reasons we don't see "sniping Ravens" despite the fact they would be quite good at it. -Liang
I agree, didn't want to write a book so I just mentioned a few things, that I felt Niz needed. I did say that missiles "do need some help too", but just didn't go into details, so thanks. (Liang you are much more knowledgeable than I.)
Niz, one thing I want to point out, that also may be obvious, are the support skills for the missiles, shields, rigs, TPs, drones, etc. So, (repeating myself), you may be able to fly a Raven very soon, but that doesn't mean you should. We don't want to have any rage quitting when/if you lose a BS. Not implying that you will, I'm just saying.
Fly safe, (or die like some of us with our guns ablazin and our hair on fire.)
-Jaz
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
0
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Posted - 2013.01.10 01:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hm all viable pointers. I am by no means -rushing- into anything. My priority is to get well fitted -> this thread is merely a nudging guide towards a specialty path that i may eventually pursue. L4 is definitely out of my league for quite some time, but it doesnt mean i cannot prepare myself for the mission tier. Just because I can pilot a battlecruiser outfitted with heavy missiles and some basic defenses, doesnt mean i want to lose it in a L4.
My bigger, more long term questions were oriented towards ship selection to suit my needs within a month, i'd say. I'm primarily an explorer/miner by trade (or want to be), but i like joining my friends on mission runs for the fun of it. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2604
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Posted - 2013.01.10 01:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd say low sec exploration is probably more compelling than WH exploration. WH exploration is more about the WH experience, where low sec exploration has much much more variety. The mining in WH space is every bit as good as null sec though. The Drake is the fastest path to being able to (slowly) complete L4s on your own, but being fire support for corpies is way more fun if you can get away with it. As a bonus: it increases your standings and you'll have access to their L4 agents sooner. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
66
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Posted - 2013.01.10 02:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dr. Niz,
At some point in time, and if you're out near Irjunen II, look me up. I usually run a couple of L4s just about every night. (23:00-02:00). You could tag along in a few L4s. I'll "show you the ropes". Then you could see what there like. (Hopefully, it won't be a too boring of a mission.)
-Jaz |
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
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Posted - 2013.01.10 09:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Here is a different idea for you:
Noctis. If your friends provide ample dps and tank (CNR plus Harbinger) then a nice Loot / Salvage ship would round out the fleet nicely. This way you can also earn some additional ISK for your ship fund. Also, the Noctis now has a (small drone bay), so if your REALLY want to add something else to the mix, have your drones help with frigs, or shield / armor rep (which ever you want or are able to use).
Missions like Angel Extravaganza will net you around 25 mil in loot and salvage alone, toss a couple mil to your friends and everyone is happy.
B. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
533
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Posted - 2013.01.10 11:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Do yourself a favour, don't ever take a noctis into battle. Pretend those drones are there for salvage drones and call it a day. Noctis is for cleaning up wrecks, not making them. |
Rancor Kane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2013.01.10 14:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Get an HML Drake fit a Target Painter or two, maybe a Web. and Have fun.
Shield rep I'd leave to the specialist, Osprey became a pretty decend shield rep ship with (importand with the new AI) lots o range.
though Id start with the Drake, just to get used to the missions and the like. A drake is a more forgiving ship when you make a mistake. |
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Alua Oresson
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
253
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Posted - 2013.01.10 15:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would suggest running an Osprey for your friends. You can throw them shield reps. This means that they could lighten up a bit on their tank and fit more gank mods in order to mission. http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/ |
Batelle
Aliastra
113
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Posted - 2013.01.10 16:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you are really flying with several other people, and those several other people are in missile BS like ravens, then there are a few things you could do to help, even with low skills.
Anti-frigate, anti-ewar support. Ravens will have trouble with this, and typically mission ships have to have an answer to ewar ships in missions and tackling frigs that are hard to kill and go after drones. It can take ravens an inordinate amount of time to deal with these, so a dedicated ship would be a big deal. If you fly caldari, a drake or caracal loaded with rapid light missile launchers should do well and have enough fittings left over on a low-sp character to fit a decent tank. Droneships are also good at this.
Target painting and webbing. If the ravens are using torps or fury cruise, having extra painters should improve their dps on all targets, including npc battleships. Webs require you to get close, painters have a long cycle time that can be annoying if stuff is dying quickly. The bellicose has a bonus to target painter effectiveness. However, if you really want a support ship, you should just use whatever has the most midslots, you'll probably rather have 2 painters than 1 with a minor bonus.
Other remote boost modules - remote sensor boosting lets those ravens lock super fast. Helpful if against serpentis, requires few skills to be effective. There's also projected ECCM, which will help if guristas are jamming your ravens. However ewar shouldn't be a major issue if you have several ravens doing dps.
Lastly, don't get a ship with the idea that you'll refit it as you do pvp and pve, even though support is a valuable role in pvp. If anything, the skills you train will overlap between pvp and pve, but if you're going to pvp in something, just get another ship thats better suited to that role, doesn't require refit or rerigging, and doesn't kneecap your isk-making if you lose it. [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65340[/url] |
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians Iberians.
37
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Posted - 2013.01.10 16:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Caracal with Rapid missile launchers, painter, MWD and shield tanking. Perfect for getting rid of the pesky little frigates and cruisers in the L4 and support the big boys with the painter.
It has good range also, and a nice tank.
And you will have lots of fun.
Doing missions this way is more a matter of fun than of credits I think. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2013.01.11 02:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fly a scorpion with an MWD, three webbers, four painters, an overdrive and two nanofibers, a DC2, and fill the high slots with tractors. Fit 5 salvage, light combat, and light shield rep drones. Fly out into the middle of a pack of ships after someone else gets aggro, web everything, paint the primary, and loot/salvage targets. Deploy your drones to help take out frigates or add a little bit of tanking if someone over-aggros.
If you're going to try to provide support in a situation where it's probably not really needed you should do it in an interesting fashion.
Conversely you could fly a destroyer. The new destroyers, especially the Gallente and, to a lesser degree, Amarr destroyers, look to make for some good anti-frigate/spider support in missions while also, in the case of the drone destroyers, being good zip-zoop salvage drone ships.
I wouldn't really fly a ferox in L4s as a "support" ship unless you're cross-training to another race's ships and weapons. The range bonus doesn't really mean diddly so fitting a ferox with pulse lasers or ACs isn't necessarily a bad thing. Going whole-hog to another race could force you to try to balance training new weapons and new ship skills, and this route would at least let you focus on the weapon skills first. |
Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
5
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Posted - 2013.01.11 03:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
oh my goodness so many choices. hm, thank you all for your words of wisdom i will review all of these in detail and weigh my options. Probably will digress from more atypical builds or trollish fits until i have a good feel for what ships can handle in case i grab a lot of aggro.
I have already considered the osprey and noctis but i don't want anything overly specialized |
Kane Alvo
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.01.11 15:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
I love threads like these.
As a newb myself, it's always nice to see that no one can agree on anything, making the process of gaining a foothold in this game just that much more confusing.
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
5
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Posted - 2013.01.11 22:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
that only means that many options work for 1 goal, which is a great sign! means the game is more or less well designed. |
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