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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.01.19 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates? |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6746
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 06:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
You don't have to gatecamp... I've been in plenty fights on stations or in belts. It's just that's where other people have to enter the system from so it's a logical place to sit and wait "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
745
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Posted - 2013.01.19 06:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. Malcanis for CSM8 |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed? |
Karrl Tian
Exiled Assassins
157
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Some Rando wrote:Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed?
Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Karrl Tian wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Some Rando wrote:Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed? Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local. Would that be such a bad thing? |
Karrl Tian
Exiled Assassins
157
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 07:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Karrl Tian wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Some Rando wrote:Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed? Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local. Would that be a bad thing?
Having no gate guns? No. Without warp bubbles lowsec is still cake compared to null. As for being tackled by frigates, outlaw players deal with that on a daily basis anyway. |
ACE McFACE
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1088
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 07:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates? Wow, I didn't realise that a lot of my fights don't actually count because they weren't on a gate DUST514 isn't on PC because CCP wants 2 different communities influencing each other, not people tabbing out to give themselves Orbital Strikes. (Also they don't want to cannibalise their existing playerbase) |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
ACE McFACE wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates? Wow, I didn't realise that a lot of my fights don't actually count because they weren't on a gate How are you defining a lot? |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2419
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Posted - 2013.01.19 09:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Karrl Tian wrote:Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local. Would that be a bad thing?
Only if you like the sever. The lack of WTZ meant that people had a bookmark 15km past each gate/station from every other gate/station in that system for every system (most people bought packs of them). Especially in LS (great story from early GSF history: they sold WTZ BM packs that were accurate, except one bookmark, which led right to a deathstar POS.).
All those bookmarks (and the process of copying them) were doing horrible things to the server, so CCP introduced WTZ to obviate the need for people to have thousands of bookmarks.
Anyway, without fighting available on gates, Freighters would ply their trade right through Rancer in perfect safety. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.01.19 19:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Karrl Tian wrote:Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local. Would that be a bad thing? Only if you like the sever. The lack of WTZ meant that people had a bookmark 15km past each gate/station from every other gate/station in that system for every system (most people bought packs of them). Especially in LS (great story from early GSF history: they sold WTZ BM packs that were accurate, except one bookmark, which led right to a deathstar POS.). All those bookmarks (and the process of copying them) were doing horrible things to the server, so CCP introduced WTZ to obviate the need for people to have thousands of bookmarks. Anyway, without fighting available on gates, Freighters would ply their trade right through Rancer in perfect safety.
Yeah I remember that was the problem, but without the ability to camp a gate would the game cease to have combat - PVP? |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2421
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 19:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Yeah I remember that was the problem, but without the ability to camp a gate would the game cease to have combat - PVP?
No, but it would be very much optional. Like my example of Freighters cruising through Rancer in near-total safety.
Besides, some of my favorite fights started by jumping into someone else's gatecamp (including a very nice Chimera kill that involved a 3 way fight, because never not gate camp with Carriers.). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
414
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Posted - 2013.01.19 19:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players. You are so right again. CCP get rid of D-scan, it isn't needed.
Gate camps happen because:
a) Players are lazy. I say get rid of gates and make people work for their food.
b) They usually consist of multiples. Leet PvPers don't want a challenge, they want a killmail.
c) Gates protect the campers more then they protect the traveller.
Luckily it takes very little time to figure out how to avoid gate camps. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
1204
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 19:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?
Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread.
Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
279
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 20:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
What EVE lacks in this regard is:
A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.
B: A more advanced system where you can chase and catch ships whilst in warp. Current bubbles are beyond insufficient for this.
It would not eliminate location specific engagements entirely but it would definitely reduce it as well as making system size a somewhat more important factor.
There is a reason for why the current system is purely from A to B, but this IMO is also quite outdated by now. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
279
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 20:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates? Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread. Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't.
And yes, removing local is always something that the wiser of us approve of. And instead have a d-scanner that is much more advanced and intuitive than the current RSI joke of today. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 20:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates? Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread. Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't. No I dont think CCP should remove local. I don't know why that is even an issue in this game. I'm asking: "would PVP exist if there were no more gatecamps?" D-scan? is PVP too hard to get then? if you have to D scan to get a fight thats not on a gate? |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 20:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:What EVE lacks in this regard is:
A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.
B: A more advanced system where you can chase and catch ships whilst in warp. Current bubbles are beyond insufficient for this.
It would not eliminate location specific engagements entirely but it would definitely reduce it as well as making system size a somewhat more important factor.
There is a reason for why the current system is purely from A to B, but this IMO is also quite outdated by now. Thank you for your well thought out response. I feel an addition like what you mention here is the next step CCP needs to take to improve the dated combat system. |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
752
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 20:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I'm asking: "would PVP exist if there were no more gatecamps?" Of course it would, since not all fights happen on gates now. Malcanis for CSM8 |
EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
201
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Posted - 2013.01.19 21:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Had a few fights at the sun or stars ( that we bubbled because everyone warps too it ) |
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Solstice Project
Highsec Outlaw Elementary School
2591
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Without gatecamps ...
... lowsec would flourish from all the activity. I can see dozens of carebears in every lowsec system, because they don't have to be afraid of entering these systems anymore. New markets would emerge rapidly and the carebears would be happy for finally being able to run lvl5s.
hahahahahahaha, who am i kidding. Without gatecamps, they'd whine about any other random reason. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
281
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:What EVE lacks in this regard is:
A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.
B: A more advanced system where you can chase and catch ships whilst in warp. Current bubbles are beyond insufficient for this.
It would not eliminate location specific engagements entirely but it would definitely reduce it as well as making system size a somewhat more important factor.
There is a reason for why the current system is purely from A to B, but this IMO is also quite outdated by now. Thank you for your well thought out response. I feel an addition like what you mention here is the next step CCP needs to take to improve the dated combat system.
Well, mind that the actual combat itself is more or less still fine and holds up in it's own right. Most issues that people bring up, including you is rather the steps which are supposed to lead to combat itself.
Right now the environment is basically such that combat is avoided too easily due to various issues, some of which I've pointed out too many times already.
Instead the environment should be such that (coincidental meetings aside) you start off in a sort of "neutral" ground and from there you have to put in a reasonable amount of effort in order to either avoid or engage in combat. Effort being mainly the gathering of information. No one should be excluded from this requirement, whether a pirate in low-sec, industrialist in high-sec or alliance member in null-sec.
There are of course other lesser factors as well, such as the one you bring up, gates and gatecamps. This is why I've always proposed to at the very least have a free entry - fixed exit setup instead of the current fixed entry - fixed exit setup. But again, this will never work unless you have an more innovative system in which you can find and catch ships.
Basically, skill and effort currently has a way too little effect on the current path which leads to combat and should play a much bigger role. But unfortunately there is a rather large group who simply refuse to let go no matter what, most likely because the current system benefit their particular style of gameplay.
Well, end result is all these discussions of areas of space being inactive and people being unwilling to engage in combat and yada yada yada. |
Solstice Project
Highsec Outlaw Elementary School
2591
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.
Just no. Even in Star Trek they can't alter course without dropping out of warp. "Faster than light - no left or right!"
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
281
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course. Just no. Even in Star Trek they can't alter course without dropping out of warp. "Faster than light - no left or right!"
Why on earth do we have to hard-core stick to the Star Trek warp theory in EVE? Sci-fi is sci-fi, right? We're not sitting here nitpicking on why microwarpdrives work the way they work, right?
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Daisai
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
67
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Posted - 2013.01.19 21:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Above the 1 million subscribers. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.01.20 05:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I'm asking: "would PVP exist if there were no more gatecamps?" Of course it would, since not all fights happen on gates now. The majority do though, and the prevailing attitude is that gatecamps are a form of lazy PVP so would it severely reduce the PVP in EVE or would the lethargic gatecampers adapt? |
Veronica Kerrigan
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 05:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
I may be in the minority here, but I like th terrain that fighting on a gate provides. It can provide a "high ground" for both sides, where nano gangs are bale to set up at range and maintain the ability to warp away while the enemy is going through a choke point, but at the same time brawler gang waiting on the opposite side can beat down everything that comes through very quickly. It also allows people with a good sense of aggression mechanics to dictate which fights happen and which don't. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 06:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Veronica Kerrigan wrote:I may be in the minority here, but I like th terrain that fighting on a gate provides. It can provide a "high ground" for both sides, where nano gangs are bale to set up at range and maintain the ability to warp away while the enemy is going through a choke point, but at the same time brawler gang waiting on the opposite side can beat down everything that comes through very quickly. It also allows people with a good sense of aggression mechanics to dictate which fights happen and which don't. Do you feel like if you don't get the fleet at the gate you will never get'em? |
Veronica Kerrigan
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 06:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Veronica Kerrigan wrote:I may be in the minority here, but I like th terrain that fighting on a gate provides. It can provide a "high ground" for both sides, where nano gangs are bale to set up at range and maintain the ability to warp away while the enemy is going through a choke point, but at the same time brawler gang waiting on the opposite side can beat down everything that comes through very quickly. It also allows people with a good sense of aggression mechanics to dictate which fights happen and which don't. Do you feel like if you don't get the fleet at the gate you will never get'em? Gates make a good place to fight, because with good tactics you can engage and disengage pretty much at will, while bad tactics will get you stuck. Of course fights also happen at other places, but many of the roams I have been part of have found the best fights at gates.
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.01.20 06:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Veronica Kerrigan wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Veronica Kerrigan wrote:I may be in the minority here, but I like th terrain that fighting on a gate provides. It can provide a "high ground" for both sides, where nano gangs are bale to set up at range and maintain the ability to warp away while the enemy is going through a choke point, but at the same time brawler gang waiting on the opposite side can beat down everything that comes through very quickly. It also allows people with a good sense of aggression mechanics to dictate which fights happen and which don't. Do you feel like if you don't get the fleet at the gate you will never get'em? Gates make a good place to fight, because with good tactics you can engage and disengage pretty much at will, while bad tactics will get you stuck. Of course fights also happen at other places, but many of the roams I have been part of have found the best fights at gates. Yes yes you had good fights at the gate, but would you have enough fights to satisfy your combat-PVP itch without the gate? |
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