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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Speed Damage Range
Pick two . . .
see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two
Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP.
I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die.
The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.
You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.
The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.
That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Sigras wrote:Speed Damage Range
Pick two . . .
see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP. I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die. The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank.
Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.
You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.
The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.
That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser. -Liang
Re-read the OP.
Rupture has nothing going for it. Its just plain weaker. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:24:00 -
[95] - Quote
I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Do our T1 cruiser options look like this: A) Rupture B) Rupture C) Rupture D) Rupture E) Rupture F) Rupture
No? You're telling me it sounds like: A) Caracal B) Omen C) Thorax D) Rupture E) Moa F) Vexor G) Arbitrator ... etc ...
Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.
-Liang
It's safe to see that you have schooled this guy in a straight, logical argument. Don't fall back on your old habbit of hyperbole and discredit yourself.
-Rupture was awesome. -Thorax started getting some serious usage as a 1600 plate boat. -Arbitrator has always been amazing, if under-used (why did it take THIS long for people to start spamming TE's? They are insane). -Vexor was by far the best tier 2 cruisers outside of the arby -Stabber was nerfed by the TE changes (you know what mean) -Osprey was underestimated and honestly performed on par with the stabber due to larger drone bay and stronger tank. Yuki-Li showed us all!
As a final note i'd rate almost everything above the rupture on your second list, except maybe the caracal. I don't get why people are so hard for it now, it's alright... but it's just a lazy man's kiting ship. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:25:00 -
[97] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.
-Liang
Maybe with your magical numbers with no fits to back them up.
Otherwise, no. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:27:00 -
[98] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
That real DPS was based on a range and speed advantage which is slowly evaporating. |
Carlos Jaegar
Nulli-Secundus
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:29:00 -
[99] - Quote
I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[100] - Quote
The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[101] - Quote
Carlos Jaegar wrote:I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch.
Any reason besides just feelings? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
That real DPS was based on a range and speed advantage which is slowly evaporating.
No, the damage was never based on that. The damage was based on TEs, ACs, and damage type selection.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang
Something is "good" in relation to its competition.
If the competition is better at everything while the rupture is always subpar... That makes the rupture weak. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang
TBH i think flying it in a 7km orbit with a web, scram, and TE is the only way it will consistently win against other cruisers of similar skill.
Works for the hookbill. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2745
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:41:00 -
[105] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang Something is "good" in relation to its competition. If the competition is better at everything while the rupture is always subpar... That makes the rupture weak.
What I'm trying to get at is that the Rupture is pretty good at everything when compared to the entire field of competition. It may not take #1 at any particular thing (though really the jury should still be out on this), but it does pretty well at everything.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Klown Walk
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
198
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:42:00 -
[106] - Quote
Why do you compare rails to ac?, compare it to arty instead. I have an arty rupture that goes 2,8k+ m/s with heat and 18k optimal + 36km falloff. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:45:00 -
[107] - Quote
Does anyone have a link to the dev blog that points out the changes to BCs?
I like that they are doing balancing of ships, but I absolutely hate that they are doing it in away that completely changes a ship from gun to missile platform. I think this is a pretty terrible thing to do as a lot of people have found roles for certain ships. I.e. the Cyclone was an amazing ship with HG crystal + pill + large booster. Would tank like no other, have decent dps, and had the surprise factor as most people weren't expecting a cyclone in the first place.
Highly disappointed if this is the case. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1735
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:47:00 -
[108] - Quote
There's no Dev Blog out, but a Dev post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191595&find=unread
Also guys, you are arguing with a troll who has never flown any ship into combat.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
18
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[109] - Quote
Thanks very much. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[110] - Quote
-snip- |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2745
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[111] - Quote
It's not a dev blog - it's a dev post in features and ideas. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191595&find=unread
Also: my first objection was to the Cyclone change. My second was to the super nerfhammer of doom to the Harbinger.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:57:00 -
[112] - Quote
I have every expectation that the Harb will get increased fitting grid before going out the door. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
19
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
The changes to the harby don't look all that bad when you look at all the other ships. It loses some tank, gains some mass, but also will have higher DPS, and a lot better cap management.
Should still be pretty decent.
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:04:00 -
[114] - Quote
Armor Changes
This may change quite a few perceptions all the way around. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:11:00 -
[115] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Armor ChangesThis may change quite a few perceptions all the way around.
Oh wow, so now my armor omen will be even better!
Another nail in the coffin for the rupture. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:12:00 -
[116] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Armor ChangesThis may change quite a few perceptions all the way around.
Trip rep Myrm with the new armor rep mod + rig will be O.o |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:24:00 -
[117] - Quote
Noone would ever put a tracking disruptor in one of the Rupture's four mid slots. Ever. And the MARSB still requires cap to use- so have fun with an armor repper, cap booster, plate and guns on an Omen.
My 250mm rail Moa puts out 500 DPS to 23 km and has 30k EHP. OP? It is helpless at point blank range and needs someone to tackle. It's great against kitey caracals and omens though . Fit and counterfit. The new skills, rigs, and modules make the Rupture a true wild card though. Which is what Minmatar is all about. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
You know, I remember when Minmatar were considered the worst race for a long time (Rifter excepted, as until recently it was the king of frigates).
And you know what was even more interesting?
People feared fighting them.
They feared them because the people flying them were sh*t hot PVPers, who were taking ships that were noticably bad and doing serious damage with them by flying them to their strengths and coming up with interesting fits and tactics.
My point with all this?
So what if they're getting nerfed a bit, CCP have overbuffed them by lots of various direct and indirect buffs and are now fixing it, but they're still going to be very capable ships in the hands of good pilots.
The question is whether you think you can rise to the challenge like the pilots of old by proving that they're still deadly ships in the hands of a skilled pilot, or if you're going to sit and whine about losing your various advantages and proving to the world you're not the skilled pilot you make yourself out to be.
The decision is yours. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2756
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:52:00 -
[119] - Quote
You remember that weird pride when someone was like: "Yeah, I fly the Phoon. What of it?".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
964
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:56:00 -
[120] - Quote
They better not mess with the phoon's sig radius (320m) or overall speed. |
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