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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1023
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Posted - 2013.01.22 09:58:00 -
[301] - Quote
Well then that's okay because that is totally different! |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 09:59:00 -
[302] - Quote
Good news for Hyperion, Active Domi, and Incursus pilots
I can't see the mediums being used much though really - a triple T2 rep Myrm will still tank more and without that deadly reload time. Might see the odd one on a Brutix to make it more survivable.
In all, good to see a little love for Armour. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Titus McVanders
xTESLAx
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:02:00 -
[303] - Quote
Roime wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote: Even as someone who exclusively flies armor ships I want to see the asymmetry beyween shield and armor preserved and an armor repairer you can load with cap boosters for 0 cap repping blurs that considerably. Cool then that there is no such module, AAR uses cap even when loaded with cap boosters.
^^This^^
All the charges do is multiply the amount repped. |
Shaak'Ti
Shirak SkunkWorks
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:21:00 -
[304] - Quote
Roime wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: Because its going to be better? do you realise how much 2.25 more is? Without gimping your fittings?
2.25*crap != good? MAAR: 742.5 hp / 9s * 9 = 6682 hp XLASB: 980 hp / 5s * 9 = 8820 hp Please note that this is indeed on an armor rep-bonused ship. AAR reps come at the end of much longer cycle, which makes it considerably harder to use economically compared to ASB. Maybe this is a way to balance the fact that they also rep less and can be completely neuted out, idk. Both fit without gimping "your fittings", with the difference that you can fit two XLASBs if you are willing to "gimp the ship"- which in this case means you will have more tank and dps than an armor fit. vOv
1.
I never used armor rep ships in PVP without capacitor booster before. so who cares neuts?
2.
XLASB after 45 sec SHORTer and HARDERr tanking say: I'm out 1min brb( or kill your cap if u still have).. u gonna die while MAAR after 81 sec LONGer but still BETTER THAN T2 rep tanking say: oh, I'm a bit lazy now, but still rep you.. I hope u killed enough DPS to it be enough..
that's difference.. that's why 2 type of tankig.. choose what u want.. fit where u want.. and kill moar than talk and cry.. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1760
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:23:00 -
[305] - Quote
If we forget the miserable 7.5% hull bonus ships for a moment, the AAR looks like a super interesting module on plate+repper fits.
800mm II + RAH + DCU II + MAAR I on an Ishtar seems to have pretty incredible potential compared to same set with a MAR II, also considering the nice improvements to agility and speed.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:24:00 -
[306] - Quote
Big question is....
When can i try it out on SISI? |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.01.22 10:27:00 -
[307] - Quote
Roime wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: Because its going to be better? do you realise how much 2.25 more is? Without gimping your fittings?
2.25*crap != good? MAAR: 742.5 hp / 9s * 9 = 6682 hp XLASB: 980 hp / 5s * 9 = 8820 hp Please note that this is indeed on an armor rep-bonused ship. AAR reps come at the end of much longer cycle, which makes it considerably harder to use economically compared to ASB. Maybe this is a way to balance the fact that they also rep less and can be completely neuted out, idk. Both fit without gimping "your fittings", with the difference that you can fit two XLASBs if you are willing to "gimp the ship"- which in this case means you will have more tank and dps than an armor fit. vOv Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?
HURRRRRRRRRRR!
And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage. |
Taya Farrago
AntCorp
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:29:00 -
[308] - Quote
M0ISHE wrote:One simple question.
Could you make damage mods (IE for drones and guns) fit mids AND lows so we don't have to give up damage to armor tank?
The drone damage mods are a wonderful thing but they force me to shield tank in Gallente ships...
Thank you
An idea may be to make the drone damage mods high-slot and buff the bonus quite a bit. Maybe add tracking and script them too to switch between tracking and dps.
OR just make drone controls for subcaps, moar drones! while sacrificing guns/neuts, would boost the life of smartbombs too.
This would allow true sub-capital droneboats without getting unfair dis-/advantages dps-wise.
Back onto the armor changes: Think my myrm just got a potential boner. Just have to wait and see how it fits. (would be nice to buff the nos's a bit too) |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1760
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:39:00 -
[309] - Quote
Shaak'Ti wrote: 1.
I never used armor rep ships in PVP without capacitor booster before. so who cares neuts?
Me neither, because it's impossible. But even with a cap booster, your tank can and will still be stopped by neuts. ASB can't be neuted out.
Quote: 2.
XLASB after 45 sec SHORTer and HARDERr tanking say: I'm out 1min brb( or kill your cap if u still have).. u gonna die while MAAR after 81 sec LONGer but still BETTER THAN T2 rep tanking say: oh, I'm a bit lazy now, but still rep you.. I hope u killed enough DPS to it be enough..
that's difference.. that's why 2 type of tankig.. choose what u want.. fit where u want.. and kill moar than talk and cry..
Do people really fly active tanks like that :D pres butan and keep it cycling until it runs out of charges, then zomg?
What you get in reality is X amount reps every X seconds. You don't get somehow magic LONGer tank, it just means that you have to wait longer between rep cycles, which rep less in the first place.
And no, MAAR in lazy mode is not enough to tank even the weakest frigates, it will be good for repping between fights where the booster-charged part was enough.
But then again you could have just fitted and ASB, tanked more, did more damage and have no cap worries, and your shields would heal between fights automatically.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1761
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:52:00 -
[310] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?
HURRRRRRRRRRR!
And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage.
Hurr hurr, I did just that. You know why? You can't fit Large Reppers on BCs and cruisers, but you can fit XLASBs.
New Myrm has the same amount of mid slots as current one, meaning that you only have room for a scram with ASB tank. So yes, armor tank opens up mids for excellent tackle (point+dual webs). Does this somehow affect the tanking figures we are discussing?
Anyway, new Myrm, if it and the tank modules are released like this, 800mm plate + MAAR fit looks much more interesting than multirep fits. Maybe they will be old skool now, MAAR looks like a T2 dual rep fit, but leaves room for a DDA... and is not as slow as before.
7.5% hull bonus is still underwhelming :)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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Galatea Galilei
Profoundly Inquisitive Exploration
18
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Posted - 2013.01.22 10:55:00 -
[311] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote: Very true, just best to put it out there, i mean the armor changes also mean that the speed difference will be slighter, which i believe has been the thorn in the side of armor tankers for a long time, and am i right in assuming that an armor myrm will have more buffer than a shield myrm? No, quite the opposite.
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Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
38
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Posted - 2013.01.22 10:56:00 -
[312] - Quote
So in theory
The AAR reps over twice that of a T1 Armor rep, the Incursus should only need one to achieve around the same as dual repping
Add on that this mod runs on cap charges, you don't necessarily need a cap booster, which frees a mid for a web
And because a AAR acts as two reps, you also technically have an extra low as well, which can be used to add more buffer/speed/damage
And because you are using one AAR instead of two reps you should in theory have more fitting for other stuff
But to top it off you no longer have a severe speed penalty on an already fast ship even with armor rigs
Did the toughest T1 frig just up its game??? |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:04:00 -
[313] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ancillary Armor Repairer
Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper When not loaded with a cap booster, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer Loaded cap boosters triple rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded)
Quick Q&A about the AAR: Why keep the cap use consistent?The elimination of cap consumption when loaded is a huge advantage of ASBs, but we decided with the AAR to build the strengths in another direction, focusing on greater stability instead. In addition, one downside of the ASB's zero cap use is the inability of one player to influence the tank of another through neuts. This works ok for the ASB but I am not inclined to expand that mechanic further.
OK, I may have misunderstood how this is going to work, but following on from comments above can you please clarify if this is correct?
I load the AAR with cap boost charges. I turn it on and it consumes a charge which increases the rep to 2.25x t1 rep/s but ALSO consumes the regular amount of cap from my ship?
I leave the AAR without charges and it reps 0.75x t1 rep/s and consumes the regular amount of cap from my ship?
This is fundamental to understanding this thing. |
Galatea Galilei
Profoundly Inquisitive Exploration
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:09:00 -
[314] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Shield Myrm sacrifices on either tackle (which gives it more DPS) or on the ability to permatank. Less EFT, more actual PvP please. Eh? (checks OP...)
Galatea Galilei wrote:Coming from a PvE perspective... Less snide comments, more actual reading skills please.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
474
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:12:00 -
[315] - Quote
Roime wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?
HURRRRRRRRRRR!
And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage. Hurr hurr, I did just that. You know why? You can't fit Large Reppers on BCs and cruisers, but you can fit XLASBs. New Myrm has the same amount of mid slots as current one, meaning that you only have room for a scram with ASB tank. So yes, armor tank opens up mids for excellent tackle (point+dual webs). Does this somehow affect the tanking figures we are discussing? Anyway, new Myrm, if it and the tank modules are released like this, 800mm plate + MAAR fit looks much more interesting than multirep fits. Maybe they will be old skool now, MAAR looks like a T2 dual rep fit, but leaves room for a DDA... and is not as slow as before. 7.5% hull bonus is still underwhelming :)
You're ignoring cycle times. The AAR reps for over a minute while the XLASB reps for about half. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1762
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:23:00 -
[316] - Quote
Realize that you are actually saying that it takes twice as long for AAR to rep 24% less damage.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Dzajic
108
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:25:00 -
[317] - Quote
There are still many pointless modules completely unaddressed by this change!
50mm and 100mm plates remain a useless joke. Old "regenerative" now layered plating and energized layered plating are still pointless. Why ever use them when omni resist modules give more.
Back to rig changes. Bad bad bad. With new rigs and if you fit all 3 rigs for active tank you will have LAR II take 2650 grid , and MAR II take 200 grid. Dual or triple rep setups become ridiculously tight on gird. So to go around new "helpful" rig change, you have to drop one tanking rig for ACR to get some extra grid. If your setup wasn't already tight enough that it needed a acr.
While at same time effects/bonuses of modules and rigs are unchanged.
As with ASBs, new ancillary module because mandatory base of all setups, and its standard reps that become auxiliary help to keep you alive while new gimmicky module is on reload. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3496
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:25:00 -
[318] - Quote
Just wanted to check in and say I've read all the posts I missed overnight, and after I get a few other things done at work I'm coming back to draft a more sizable reply to some of the issues and questions brought up so far.
As always thanks to you all for taking the time to give us feedback. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Tsunayoshi Sawada
Kernel of War Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:28:00 -
[319] - Quote
Core imbalances are still on ignore...
Hello i'm shieldtanked and i got 235255 times more rep burst than you ! (thanks boost amps) Hello i'm shieldtanked and can still do shitload of dps or be superfast ! You are armor tanked ? byebye damagemods ! bye bye speed !
What do armortanking has in return ? scrams and webs ? come on..
So same problems since a few years, everything that active armortanking can do, active shieldtanking does it better.
Come on CCP.. open your eyes. |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
58
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Posted - 2013.01.22 11:36:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:fukier wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:IamBeastx wrote:So your screwing over active tanking armor ships by limiting there PG for weaponry: Or are you changing the PG requirements of reppers?
I see no changes to buffer fits, are we gonna still be fat and slow when we fit trimarks/resists, why aren't you changing buffer?
This over complicated AAR does not entice me to active armor tank anything with a small cargohold., what calculations have you done in reference to increased cap booster cargo space needed? It's far easier to get around a slight PG reduction than the speed reduction. There's a whole section entitled Plates you should probably read it. You completely free to not use the AAR on ships with small cargoholds, I give you permission. how come you avoid talking about scaleability of active armor rep bonus and how its useless in fleet warfare? its an easy fix just make the skill affect external incomming armor RR! presto now the bonus is usefull for anything larger then 5 ships! And also super overpowered.
Uhm, no? Let me remind you that the faildari and amarrian ships have a resist bonus, which also effects remote reps, but you don't consider them overpowered. Also, having the hull's rep bonus applied to incoming remote reps won't protect the vessel from alpha strikes, which the resist bonuses do. I think it's vica-versa, the resist bonus is overpowered compared to the rep amount bonus, no matter whether you apply it to remote reps or not. |
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Wacktopia
Noir. Black Legion.
447
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:50:00 -
[321] - Quote
Question: Why did you decide not to go for the 20% drop on 1600s'?
Do the new rigs work on Capitals? Edit: Aparently not. Prob makes sense given there is no shield equiv. Wait.... there are shield caps?!?! The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
943
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:52:00 -
[322] - Quote
Another question is rig calibration cost. When tech1 trimarks are of 50 poins and active rigs are of 100, it's already quite a disparity - why would anyone think trimak is any worse than nanobot accelerator? Then consider fitting tech2 versions and it suddenly becomes a real PITA to fully utilize those. And saying that 'you have 400 points, so 150 per rig is not that much' is sheer stupidity, given there are certain rigs that easily take 200-300 calibration points each and certain ships and setups might want to use them. Finally, faction ships have only 350 calibration and thus are really gimped when it comes to rig setup department.
Will this be left intact, too? 14 |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:57:00 -
[323] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Hint: In addition to being incorrect on tracking (given that sig radius only matters if your sig radius is less than the sig res of the guns), http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
Missile damage is capped at a % = sig res / explosion velocity. Do you have a reliable reference stating something similar for guns?
Eternal Error wrote:armor rigs penalize speed, not mass. True. But plates penalise mass. And everything else I stated is still true. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:57:00 -
[324] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Roime wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: Because its going to be better? do you realise how much 2.25 more is? Without gimping your fittings?
2.25*crap != good? MAAR: 742.5 hp / 9s * 9 = 6682 hp XLASB: 980 hp / 5s * 9 = 8820 hp Please note that this is indeed on an armor rep-bonused ship. AAR reps come at the end of much longer cycle, which makes it considerably harder to use economically compared to ASB. Maybe this is a way to balance the fact that they also rep less and can be completely neuted out, idk. Both fit without gimping "your fittings", with the difference that you can fit two XLASBs if you are willing to "gimp the ship"- which in this case means you will have more tank and dps than an armor fit. vOv Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module? HURRRRRRRRRRR! And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage.
Yes he did you mong, because you can fit an xl ancil to a cruiser/bc, you can't in any way shape or form fit a LAR to a cruiser. LTEFT noob.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
475
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:04:00 -
[325] - Quote
Roime wrote:Realize that you are actually saying that it takes twice as long for AAR to rep 24% less damage.
So turn it on earlier? thats nothing that can't be negated with proper module management. |
Adam Junior
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
127
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:12:00 -
[326] - Quote
Huh.
Nice nerf.
It's not like I needed that PG. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Crimson HellHounds Drunk3n H00ligans
367
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:23:00 -
[327] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:fukier wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:IamBeastx wrote:So your screwing over active tanking armor ships by limiting there PG for weaponry: Or are you changing the PG requirements of reppers?
I see no changes to buffer fits, are we gonna still be fat and slow when we fit trimarks/resists, why aren't you changing buffer?
This over complicated AAR does not entice me to active armor tank anything with a small cargohold., what calculations have you done in reference to increased cap booster cargo space needed? It's far easier to get around a slight PG reduction than the speed reduction. There's a whole section entitled Plates you should probably read it. You completely free to not use the AAR on ships with small cargoholds, I give you permission. how come you avoid talking about scaleability of active armor rep bonus and how its useless in fleet warfare? its an easy fix just make the skill affect external incomming armor RR! presto now the bonus is usefull for anything larger then 5 ships! And also super overpowered.
Nice, so by that fail ass logic, resistance bonus must be "Super overpowered" as well right? Or do you guys not actually do any kind of math over there at ccp.
For those that do not know (apparently you fozzie) a 7.5% rep bonus gives you just over a 3% advantage in active tank compared to a ship with a resistance bonus... This same "just over 3%" advantage would be present if the rep bonus effected incoming RR. Now compared to the ehp advantage a resistance bonus gives, this extremely modest increase in 2 out of the 3 areas probably still does not make up for the ehp advantage provided by the resistance bonus...
As for all these bad ideas in the OP... How about you fix stuff that is broken first, instead of trying to add bandaid skill and module fixes to an already overly crowded game... I've got a little secret on how you can do this... It's called fixing the damn base modules as people have been throwing out mathematically driven threadnaughts about this subject for 5+ years.
Actually, just go get tomb, I think you've shown you can't handle the tanking rebalance. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1765
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:24:00 -
[328] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Roime wrote:Realize that you are actually saying that it takes twice as long for AAR to rep 24% less damage.
So turn it on earlier? thats nothing that can't be negated with proper module management.
Ok, I admit that I'm a complete nub at preemptive armor repairing. Should I turn the module on right after I undock? Or only when I land on grid? How many cycles before the battle do you think would be required to catch up with ASB?
/troll
Anyway, I think most of these stupid ASB comparisons and tank creep would have been avoided simply by sanitizing the ASB fitting requirements using armor rep+cap booster as the measure.
This new armor mod combined with the o/h rig is quite powerful compared with ASBs of the same size, and when rigs don't anymore slow you down, you get great value from the hard tackle you can fit with armor tank- or opt for a bit more damage. Very nice.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
578
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:28:00 -
[329] - Quote
Oversized modules need to go. They make it impossible to get the balance right.
1600mm plates can be fitted on battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers. We know that their existence causes various problems on the cruiser level but changing the 1600mm plates would also affect battleships and battlecruisers. Same story with oversized shield boosters. We need to get to the root of the problem.
Consider the following idea where existing plates, shield extenders and active tanking modules are replaced by:
"Frigate Armor Plating" "Reinforced Frigate Armor Plating"
"Frigate Shield Extender" "Reinforced Frigate Shield Extender"
"Frigate Armor Repairer" "Frigate Shield Booster"
"Frigate Ancillary Armor Repairer" "Frigate Ancillary Shield Booster"
These can only be mounted on frigates which allows you to balance them against each other and against their shield/armor counterparts without affecting other ship classes.
Add this series for all ship classes (including destroyers and battlecruisers) and suddenly many balance problems disappear. |
Dzajic
109
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:32:00 -
[330] - Quote
And trololo oversized shield extenders? All frigs use medium extenders, all cruisers use large extenders. Would you also love to have frigs limited to small shield extenders? Cruisers only to fit MSE? |
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