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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 00:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm redoing a Tutorial Mission, Balancing the Books.
One Mission asks to mine some Veldspar, and tells you to fit a mining laser.
So off to the market to buy a mining laser, except they don't exist. Miner 1s do.
Sent in a bug report and the Bughunter Team say it's meant to be this way, that Miner 1 is a Mining Laser and falls under that category of the market.
This is incorrect.
Search for "Mining Laser", the market won't list Miner 1.
I tried to reply to the email the Bughunter team sent, but obviously they don't believe in dialogue as my reply was undeliverable.
~~~
Which brings me to an old bugbear, bug reporting systems.
Way back in the mists of time a group of men sat around a fire at their weekly Bug Meeting.
The wisest man, Ceo, remarked that hardly anyone was reporting bugs so the game was doing good.
The other men nodded and took the hint.
Ever since then Bug Reporting systems have been painful beasts to tame.
Usually players go to the relevant forums, and then get a lock or a smiley faced reminder to report the issue as a bug. Usually without instructions or a link to the bug reporting system. The smiley face is important, it helps annoy customers and stop them reporting the bug. Because bugs mean more workload.
~~~
Bug reporting is unpaid work the player does because they are well intentioned. They have to fight through the worst layouts and things like pedantic categorisations, usually involving acronyms, to get their message across to the company.
Without any thanks, apart from the usual impersonal...
"Thanks from the EVE Blob of Extreme Happy Familyness!", or Blizzard Mind Collective or what-have-you.
~~~
In any game it is usually of more short term benefit to the player not to report a bug. Especially those that give some advantage.
Long term of course it means games get full of crud and workarounds and players have to go to fansites to find out that a mining laser is a Miner 1. Or have to be an experieced player, which shouldn't usually apply in newbie missions.
~~~
Perhaps it would be an idea to think of rewarding good bug reports. Perhaps some ISK or even a Plex for truly awesome bug reporting.
And making bug reports a little easier from the player side, for example I have no idea what category my bug was so I slapped it into Game Mechanics. My guess is that this categorisation is usually wrong and that CCP has to redo it later on their side.
So why make players do it?
Bug report system is buggy, please cast your eye over it CCP.
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Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
310
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Posted - 2013.01.25 00:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
They do..."working as intended"
Welcome to EVE, the buggest MMO around. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6965
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Posted - 2013.01.25 00:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
You should probably fill out a bug report "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
Abrazzar
519
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Posted - 2013.01.25 00:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:You should probably fill out a bug report Under what category, though? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1075
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Posted - 2013.01.25 00:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote: Sent in a bug report and the Bughunter Team say it's meant to be this way, that Miner 1 is a Mining Laser and falls under that category of the market.
This is incorrect.
Search for "Mining Laser", the market won't list Miner 1.
The key word you missed was category ... Miner 1s fall under the category Mining Lasers in the market, just like they said.
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Solstice Project
T E R R O R I S T S
2652
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Posted - 2013.01.25 01:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree. I got a reply for a bug report about something they were incapable of reproducing, but there was no way to getting back at them to help.
That's why people also rather make threads about stuff, than making bugreports.
Anyway, i agree with the OP ... at least the few lines i've read ... ... and propose that categorizes should be searchable too.
If that's not relevant, then feel free to lock the thread for trolling. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Solstice Project
T E R R O R I S T S
2652
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Posted - 2013.01.25 01:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:You should probably fill out a bug report Under what category, though? "Not now", obviously.
The single most fitting category for everything not related to the present. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote: The key word you missed was category ... Miner 1s fall under the category Mining Lasers in the market, just like they said.
All I know is that searching for a particular item, in this case "Mining Laser", doesn't work.
Searches shouldn't need us to search by category if the game itself is telling us the name of the item.
In this case they tell us not to forget to fit a mining laser.
So naturally I search for mining laser as a particular item.
Searching by categories is a bit clunkier, might as well search by the category "Item in the game EVE Online". |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2137
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote: The key word you missed was category ... Miner 1s fall under the category Mining Lasers in the market, just like they said.
All I know is that searching for a particular item, in this case "Mining Laser", doesn't work. Searches shouldn't need us to search by category if the game itself is telling us the name of the item. In this case they tell us not to forget to fit a mining laser. So naturally I search for mining laser as a particular item. Searching by categories is a bit clunkier, might as well search by the category "Item in the game EVE Online".
There is no way this is a serious post. The Adventures of a Belligerent Undesirable |
Cutter Isaacson
Nouvelle Rouvenor Monkeys with Guns.
2271
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Interestingly, when one has to learn to do something for oneself, that information tends to be retained far more effectively than if the answer is presented to us directly. So unless you are asking for CCP to drastically simplify what is already a fairly simple system, I do not understand where the issue is.
EVE is not your grandmother, it will not hold your hand while you cross the road, nor give you a band-aid when you skin your knee, EVE expects you to think for yourself, learn for yourself and use some sense. Filing a bug report for this kind of thing is why bug reporting systems don't work. Laziness is not a bug. "The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:There is no way this is a serious post.
Your post?
Things like this don't occur to an experienced player.
They see Mining Laser and automatically translate it to Miner 1 or Miner 2 or whatever.
Search for Mining Laser, see what the search returns.
That's what I did as a new player, twice now.
Then multiply that by every new player coming into the mission, those that do missions.
It is needless confusion for new players. That's why it's a bug. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Interestingly, when one has to learn to do something for oneself, that information tends to be retained far more effectively than if the answer is presented to us directly. So unless you are asking for CCP to drastically simplify what is already a fairly simple system, I do not understand where the issue is.
EVE is not your grandmother, it will not hold your hand while you cross the road, nor give you a band-aid when you skin your knee, EVE expects you to think for yourself, learn for yourself and use some sense. Filing a bug report for this kind of thing is why bug reporting systems don't work. Laziness is not a bug.
Customers who don't complain are bad customers.
Being passive is just bad for the customer and the product.
In this case it's a small thing.
A search tool doesn't work.
When searching for mining lasers, it does not return items that fit in that category, like MIner 1, but does return things like upgrades to mining lasers.
So it's broke, it's a bug, it needs a fix. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2137
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Posted - 2013.01.25 03:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:There is no way this is a serious post. Your post? Things like this don't occur to an experienced player. They see Mining Laser and automatically translate it to Miner 1 or Miner 2 or whatever. Search for Mining Laser, see what the search returns. That's what I did as a new player, twice now. Then multiply that by every new player coming into the mission, those that do missions. It is needless confusion for new players. That's why it's a bug.
I want to buy a car. I'm thinking about buying a 2000 model autumn green Monaro. I'm sure I'll find the exact car I'm looking for if I search for "Car". If that exact car doesn't appears in the search, then it's obviously a bug that needs reporting. The Adventures of a Belligerent Undesirable |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I want to buy a car. I'm thinking about buying a 2000 model autumn green Monaro. I'm sure I'll find the exact car I'm looking for if I search for "Car". If that exact car doesn't appears in the search, then it's obviously a bug that needs reporting.
Been a while since I've seen a car analogy in a forum discussion.
The analogy is more like...
Search for Monaro, getting only racing Monaros or upgrade kits for Monaros.
~~~
Searched for Mining Laser, got Deep Core Mining Laser and some Mining Laser Upgrades. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2137
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
I want to buy a car. I'm thinking about buying a 2000 model autumn green Monaro. I'm sure I'll find the exact car I'm looking for if I search for "Car". If that exact car doesn't appears in the search, then it's obviously a bug that needs reporting.
Been a while since I've seen a car analogy in a forum discussion. The analogy is more like... Search for Monaro, getting only racing Monaros or upgrade kits for Monaros. ~~~ Searched for Mining Laser, got Deep Core Mining Laser and some Mining Laser Upgrades.
The catagory is still 'car' or 'automotive'. If I search for the catagory only I'm not going to find what I'm looking for. The same applies in EVE. The Adventures of a Belligerent Undesirable |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3013
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
It makes sense to me that searching for "Mining Laser" would bring up items with "mining laser" in their name, as well as items in the category of "mining laser". It is not obvious that to find a mining laser you should search for "miner". Miners use mining lasers, they aren't actually mining lasers themselves.
Imagine how much easier it would be for newer players if searching for "rail gun" would bring up the entire category of hybrid/railgun?
This is just one of the elements of polish that will be required for EVE to feel like it's real.
Don't file a bug report, add this request to the "little things" thread. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The catagory is still 'car' or 'automotive'. If I search for the catagory only I'm not going to find what I'm looking for. The same applies in EVE.
How are new players meant to know how EVE categorises things?
If EVE tutorial mission says fit mining laser, the first thing I thought of was not, "Oh, they mean Miner 1, in the category of Mining Laser, which of course isn't the same list of items a search for Mining Laser would produce."
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2137
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:How are new players meant to know how EVE categorises things?
Everyone else seems to have managed, considering that they're the first things you see upon opening the market. The Adventures of a Belligerent Undesirable |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP has got back to me saying it's all good, their system is fine. And blocked any ability to reply to that message. Hence my visit to the forums.
So it's not just about a minor miner mishap.
I think bug reporting systems in general are awkward and could be tweaked.
To me it looks like the system is designed from CCP's perspective, not the players'.
There is a reason players report bugs on the forums instead of the systems that are built for bug reporting. Or don't report at all.
It's easier, it means you don't have a bug report dialogue box filling up your game screen for a few minutes while it sends off the data to CCP. Plus all the other stuff, like pick the right category and so on.
If players are going to that effort then Game devs should think about showing thanks in some form.
They might get more bug reports and better ones then as players grow accustomed to using the system and helping CCP design it better.
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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:How are new players meant to know how EVE categorises things? Everyone else seems to have managed, considering that they're the first things you see upon opening the market.
Nobody else was silly enough to go through bug reporting then forumming about it you mean.
And I can see why.
When I open the market I see a list of categories, none of them Mining Lasers, although no doubt there is a sub category there somewhere, possibly.
There is nothing on the right hand side.
So I'm not sure what you see when you open the market. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2137
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Posted - 2013.01.25 04:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:How are new players meant to know how EVE categorises things? Everyone else seems to have managed, considering that they're the first things you see upon opening the market. Nobody else was silly enough to go through bug reporting then forumming about it you mean. And I can see why. When I open the market I see a list of categories, none of them Mining Lasers. There is nothing on the right hand side. So I'm not sure what you see when you open the market.
Maybe try unchecking the 'only show items in station' box? Or selecting 'region' in the drop-box? The Adventures of a Belligerent Undesirable |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 05:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Maybe try unchecking the 'only show items in station' box? Or selecting 'region' in the drop-box?
Show Only Available is unchecked.
Station was the area.
There are plenty of Miner 1s for sale, some enterprising soul is selling 100s of them for 300k, and buying out lower priced ones.
But you have to know to look for Miner 1.
If the tutorial said Miner 1, then all would be well.
That still leaves CCP with the job of making Bug Reporting friendlier. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3013
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Posted - 2013.01.25 05:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:To me it looks like the system is designed from CCP's perspective, not the players'.
I'd say that's pretty true. They're paying more attention to getting new players into the game though, so let's see if the suggestion makes it into a release at some time in the future.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Charlepetit LaJoie
Trust Me Ltd
181
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Posted - 2013.01.25 05:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Which brings me to an old bugbear, bug reporting systems. You should bugbear report it.
Hir Miriel wrote:Perhaps it would be an idea to think of rewarding good bug reports. Perhaps some ISK or even a Plex for truly awesome bug reporting. A token reward would be a great idea. It could be a simple in-game vanity item like a can of Bugspray. Any player who is the first to report a new bug earns the Bugspray item. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 05:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Charlepetit LaJoie wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Which brings me to an old bugbear, bug reporting systems. You should bugbear report it. Hir Miriel wrote:Perhaps it would be an idea to think of rewarding good bug reports. Perhaps some ISK or even a Plex for truly awesome bug reporting. A token reward would be a great idea. It could be a simple in-game vanity item like a can of Bugspray. Any player who is the first to report a new bug earns the Bugspray item.
Good idea!
I was thinking along the lines of a tutorial mission to do a dummy bug report and get a million ISK.
Or possibly do that for all bug reports.
Not sure, CCP would probably have concerns about people gaming bug reporting, multiple copies of the same bug, or going thru a long list of known bugs and so on.
Then people would bot bug reporting and zombies would invade and it would all be over.
Or perhaps not, perhaps CCP can find a way to make bug reporting a little friendlier and maybe even rewarding. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
16
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Posted - 2013.01.25 05:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
As an addendum...
Mission 3 of Balancing the Books gives this mining task that started this thread issue about finding a Miner 1.
Mission 6 of Balancing the Books gives a Miner 1 as part of the rewad.
Maybe newbie missions can get a look at too. If only to make them flow better. |
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