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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
574
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Posted - 2013.01.26 00:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's take a look at gunnergy support skills.
Gunnery................. Rank 1 Controlled Bursts... Rank 2 Motion Prediction... Rank 2 Rapid Firing........... Rank 2 Sharpshooter......... Rank 2
Looks good so far right? Base skill is a rank 1, then the support skills are rank 2s. Kind of makes sense. But then;
Surgical Strike....... Rank 4 Trajectory Analysis Rank 5
Why are these such high rank skills? I sort of understand why Surgical Strike is a high rank skill, after all it is a straight up 15% extra damage on all your turrets, but Trajectory Analysis? Extra falloff? Why is this the most SP intensive support skill? Why is Rapid Firing, the largest damage increase of any of these skills, why is that only rank 2?
I'd love to see these changed to be more consistent. Something like this:
Gunnery................. Rank 1 Controlled Bursts... Rank 2 Sharpshooter......... Rank 2 Trajectory Analysis Rank 2 Motion Prediction... Rank 3 Surgical Strike....... Rank 3 Rapid Firing........... Rank 5
So now we have Gunnery at rank 1, Controlled Bursts, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis at a nice easy rank 2, then the skills that have a medium increase in DPS at 3, and Rapid Firing, the big one at rank 5. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1328
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Posted - 2013.01.26 02:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
considering i have them all to 5, i say they should all be changed to rank 8 skills.
(just train them...) |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
575
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Posted - 2013.01.26 02:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:considering i have them all to 5, i say they should all be changed to rank 8 skills.
(just train them...)
I have them all to V except Trajectory Analysis and Surgical Strike, which are next in my skill queue. It wont matter a bit to me if they get changed, and my proposed change would not in any way reduce the total SP costs of training them all to V.
You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train? |
stoicfaux
2247
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Posted - 2013.01.26 03:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Paikis wrote:You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train? Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
960
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Posted - 2013.01.26 09:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Paikis wrote:You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train? Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing.
Arche-pre-nerfing? Wasn't this part of the old argument about how Minmatar was bad way back when?
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stoicfaux
2248
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Posted - 2013.01.26 13:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Paikis wrote:You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train? Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing. Arche-pre-nerfing? Wasn't this part of the old argument about how Minmatar was bad way back when? Karma's a *****.
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Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
335
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Posted - 2013.01.26 15:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Who cares? |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
328
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Posted - 2013.01.26 16:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you trane right, (wrong?), you can get over 10 million SP in gunnery and still not have a T2 gun. |
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud.
170
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Posted - 2013.01.26 16:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense? There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
Frank Millar
104
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Posted - 2013.01.26 22:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense? According to Evemon and as far as I can tell, Surgical Strike V and Trajectory Analysis V enable no other skills or modules.
One needs Motion Prediction V for Large Autos, Blasters, and Pulses and Sharpshooter V for Large Arty, Rails and Beams.
That's about it, I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong. |
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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
192
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frank Millar wrote:Tul Breetai wrote:I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense? According to Evemon and as far as I can tell, Surgical Strike V and Trajectory Analysis V enable no other skills or modules. One needs Motion Prediction V for Large Autos, Blasters, and Pulses and Sharpshooter V for Large Arty, Rails and Beams. That's about it, I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong.
They are not prerequisites, but are damn cool and useful.
Surgical Strike needs no explanation, and Trajectory Analysis is great for autocannons and arties. Even 5% is great. It adds up to your effective range. If you add tracking enhancers and use a hull that gives bonus to falloff (like Vagabond or Sleipnir), you learn to notice and appreciate the difference.
If you want silly bonus for 2/3 of a month worth of training, please check Drone Durability (Rank 5). That one doesn't make any sense. |
Frank Millar
104
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Posted - 2013.01.27 09:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oh, I agree totally. I was just checking out the question posed by the poster above me.
On Drone Durability V: I am (was) a bit of a Drone freak, and I trained it. 5% more Shields, Armor and Hull seemed worth it. Was I wrong? |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
268
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Posted - 2013.01.27 12:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Who cares?
Remove insurance. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1333
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Posted - 2013.01.27 15:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?
the only gun skill that gives access to items is traj analysis at 4 for T2 tracking comps. |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
82
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Posted - 2013.01.27 17:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Frank Millar wrote:Oh, I agree totally. I was just checking out the question posed by the poster above me. On Drone Durability V: I am (was) a bit of a Drone freak, and I trained it. 5% more Shields, Armor and Hull seemed worth it. Was I wrong?
Yes and no. It gives your drones more survivability in PVE, and some what in PVP. But if someone is targeting your drones with the right weapon system it won't matter. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
583
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Posted - 2013.01.27 20:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Tul Breetai wrote:I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense? the only gun skill that gives access to items is traj analysis at 4 for T2 tracking comps.
I think what he meant was with regards to how large long range turret specialisation skills (f.e Large Beam Laser Specialisation) require Sharpshooter V and the short range (Large Pulse Laser Specialisation) spec requires Motion Prediction V...
But these are both rank 2 skills, so nothing there. |
Schmata Bastanold
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
565
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Posted - 2013.01.29 13:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7429
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Posted - 2013.01.29 15:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Let's take a look at gunnery support skills.
Gunnery................. Rank 1 Controlled Bursts... Rank 2 Motion Prediction... Rank 2 Rapid Firing........... Rank 2 Sharpshooter......... Rank 2
Looks good so far right? Base skill is a rank 1, then the support skills are rank 2s. Kind of makes sense. But then;
Surgical Strike....... Rank 4 Trajectory Analysis Rank 5
Why are these such high rank skills? I sort of understand why Surgical Strike is a high rank skill, after all it is a straight up 15% extra damage on all your turrets, but Trajectory Analysis? Extra falloff? Why is this the most SP intensive support skill? Why is Rapid Firing, the largest damage increase of any of these skills, why is that only rank 2?
I'd love to see these changed to be more consistent. Something like this:
Gunnery................. Rank 1 Controlled Bursts... Rank 2 Sharpshooter......... Rank 2 Trajectory Analysis Rank 2 Motion Prediction... Rank 3 Surgical Strike....... Rank 3 Rapid Firing........... Rank 5
So now we have Gunnery at rank 1, Controlled Bursts, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis at a nice easy rank 2, then the skills that have a medium increase in DPS at 3, and Rapid Firing, the big one at rank 5.
If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
595
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Posted - 2013.01.29 22:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap?
So then why is Sharpshooter not a rank V? I mean, optimal range is important to Lasers and Hybrids and Sharpshooter V is like a cherry on top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why shouldn't 'expert mode' be expensive?
Malcanis wrote:If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level.
Yeah, the missile supports are funky as well. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
268
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap? So then why is Sharpshooter not a rank V? I mean, optimal range is important to Lasers and Hybrids and Sharpshooter V is like a cherry on top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why shouldn't 'expert mode' be expensive? I think the line of thought is that optimal range, while increasing range, still makes the weapon system operate within its intended usage scenarios. Short range are still short range, and long range are still long range.
Trajectory Analysis, because of the falloff mechanics, allows you to fit for unintended "out of the box" fits. Like using autocannons as long range weapons.
Paikis wrote:Malcanis wrote:If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level. Yeah, the missile supports are funky as well. Not only are they funky, but unlike their gunnery equivalents; the range skills don't add anything to your damage projection. |
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
618
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Posted - 2013.01.31 02:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:I think the line of thought is that optimal range, while increasing range, still makes the weapon system operate within its intended usage scenarios. Short range are still short range, and long range are still long range.
Trajectory Analysis, because of the falloff mechanics, allows you to fit for unintended "out of the box" fits. Like using autocannons as long range weapons.
Scorch would like a word with you, and it is all optimal. Extra range is extra range. Technically speaking Trajectory Analysis is a very slight damage buff for projectiles, but projectiles are only 1/3 of the weapons affected by this skill, and more optimal is a damage buff for Rails and Lasers.
I see what you're saying, I just happen to disagree. If all your world entails is projectiles, then you'd be right. When you add Railguns and Lasers to the mix though, 25% optimal is much better than 25% falloff.
Pohbis wrote:Not only are they funky, but unlike their gunnery equivalents; the range skills don't add anything to your damage projection.
What do you mean the missile range skills don't add to your damage projection? Isn't 56.25% more range an increase to projection? |
Lucy Starr Delphinus
CreoDron Industries
3
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Posted - 2013.02.04 20:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rapid firing increases DPS with a cost, you now burn through more ammo. Surgical strike justs ups your DPS with no drawback. Probably the same reason 9 times out of 10 rigs that increase turret rate of fire increase the DPS more than rigs that just increase a turret's damage. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
982
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Posted - 2013.02.04 21:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lucy Starr Delphinus wrote:Rapid firing increases DPS with a cost, you now burn through more ammo. Surgical strike justs ups your DPS with no drawback. Probably the same reason 9 times out of 10 rigs that increase turret rate of fire increase the DPS more than rigs that just increase a turret's damage.
Your 10th instance would like a word with you. He also increases DPS more through RoF than pure damage provided the bonuses are equal and equally stacking penalized. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
239
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Posted - 2013.02.05 08:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well...
Gunnery: Basic Turret Operation skill. 2% bonus to weapon turrets' rate of fire per skill level.
Rapid Firing: Skill at rapid discharge of weapon turrets. 4% bonus per skill level to weapon turret rate of fire.
Rapid Firing is a second pass upgrade to the RoF.
As for Trajectory Analysis with falloff vs Sharpshooter being optimal:
Falloff is 2 times the value for effect before it fades. Optimal is only a single value increase for its effect.
Beyond that, I always kind of muttered about Weapons Upgrades vs Advanced Weapons Upgrades -- one is CPU, the other is Power grid and I really didn't have issues with CPU early on but PG? Rigs were the answer until AWU was done training, yet they are 4 ranks apart (rank 2 vs rank 6) - and both these skills effect more than just guns. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
392
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Posted - 2013.02.09 11:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Surgical strike - no added cap or ammo cost for the added DPS, more alpha, not so with rapid firing
Trajectory analysis - with few exceptions, your falloff doesn't vary depending on ammo choice - sharpshooting does virtually nothing for autos, and for a weapon like a laser, its bonus using multifreq is half what it is using standard.
Blasters, Autos, arty all benefit much more from trajectory analysis than from sharpshooting
Rails, beams, using close range ammo get about half their range from optimal, half from falloff (maybe pulse as well)
One also need to factor in tracking enhancers, which boost falloff much more than optimal, making the falloff bonus on a ship using multiple TEs better than the optimal bonus |
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