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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
623
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:41:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
441
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:42:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Leon Razor wrote:Well 16 hours and 42 pages later it's nice to see the community arguing (constructively?) over a FiS feature this time. I know something like this has been said at least once here, but I think they need to hear it again just in case they haven't gotten it yet. CCP:
- Read this entire thread, there are reasonable suggestions here from both sides
- Make some adjustments
- Make another blog about it
- Read another 40+ page thread
- Maybe repeat this process a few times
- Then post a final list of balance changes well before the patch day
- Be prepared to make adjustments before the next big expansion
If you are really serious about listening to your player base and regaining their trust, you are going to need lots of two way communication. I know you gather a lot of info before deciding on changes like these, but you need to continue that process up to and after release. Most people feel like balance changes are simple database value updates that are easy to do, so since it's relatively quick to implement them, spend the extra time talking and listening to us, and don't wait 18 months to react. Aside from the harsh vs effective (SC vs blob) arguments, a general issue people on both sides seem to have with these changes is that they are too flat, e.g.
- Overall HP -20% VS a variable HP nerf that considers the unique properties of each ship
- Removing all drones VS something like a smaller drone bay for non-fighters (like you did with the separate fuel cargo bays)
Very nice put, CCP's main fault the last five years has been in the communication department. Your suggestion would go a long way towards making this game alot better.
this is a signature |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
149
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:43:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Really liking these changes, but I do have to ask: what nich+¬ do you see fighters filling after this nerf exactly? Seems a bit heavy handed in this case.
Also please let the Veldnought keep the drones
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Evil Celeste
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:43:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Evil Celeste wrote:Tippia wrote:For one, no, that is not what he intends. False. Its exactly what i want. Kill a SC in a single Drake? Because that's what he claims that you wantGǪ
Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts. |
Furb Killer
12
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:44:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Liranan wrote:This is the problem with the game, people who've never flown a ship whine so much that devs listen to them. Now, why don't you fly a dread a few times and watch those lovely guns miss a pos and then tell us your maths. You ever seen a Sieged Moros barely hit an iHub? No? Those guns barely track targets the size of a star, let alone a moving target But maths don't lie! I have a Moros, I have sieged it while still moving at zero from an ihub. I hit it fine, think I was even top damage dealer.
But really eve is math. Sure you need to properly apply it, but things like missing POS's due to tracking are things you can really easy put in the tracking formula (or let EFT do it for you), and you simply get the truth back. They hit for full damage, their tracking is sufficient. What are you saying then? The tracking formula is wrong? Eve = math, deal with it. |
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:44:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Misanth wrote:EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives. And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while. If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers.
Goons having no skills. They need 500+ to win fights. Basic knowledge, CSM = GOONS = WIN only way a goon wins. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5425
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:44:00 -
[1117] - Quote
Evil Celeste wrote:Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts. That's something rather different than what he suggests, thoughGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
623
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:45:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Kari Kari wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Misanth wrote:EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives. And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while. If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers. Goons having no skills. They need 500+ to win fights. Basic knowledge, CSM = GOONS = WIN only way a goon wins.
Inappropriate comment removed. Spitfire |
Dray
Euphoria Released 0ccupational Hazzard
33
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:45:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dray wrote:Mar Drakar wrote:That logofski button... they took it away... :D
and then all was silent This, a thousand times this. What about gate jump logoffski? If you can't get some aggro in before he logs, there's no difference (and, of course, when done right, gate logoffski won't let you do that).
You make it sound like a viable tactic, which it shouldn't be, or did I read you wrong? either way it shouldn't be allowed.
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Relnala
Event.Horizon Flatline.
12
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:45:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Why can't SCs just have a fighter AND a bomber bay, separately?
I get that you want SCs to be de'fangable, and thats why you reduced the drone bay. But this looks almost TOO easy to defang. Plus, do you know how much of a pita it would be to swap fighters for fighterbombers or vice versa if you decided to swap types before a battle?
You'd either need a pos, a freighter, or a whole bunch of industrial trips.
Maybe an increase in corp hangar or cargo capacity to help compensate (AKA you can carry spares in ship, but not in bay?)
I mean, the last thing that supers need is more pain in the ass for less power. |
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Kahrnar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:45:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.
So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless |
Naradius
DEATHFUNK
21
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:45:00 -
[1122] - Quote
I will wait to see, if removing drones from Dreads is a good idea...IMHO I feel that you need to improve the tracking bonus for dreads, for this idea to be a "balanced" idea. As I said - I'll wait and see.
Nerfing logoffski - hmmm, great idea in theory, but only in a perfect world. What happens if the server craps out, node dies, genuine internet connection loss? This would be fine, as long as GM's didn't fall back on the "The logs, they show nothing", canned response. I've had the server and node die on me too many times, to believe this idea is viable until CCP managed hardware/software is more reliable The reasons and issues as to why you haven't implemented a log off nerf up till now, are reasons and issues you haven't fully addressed.
Edit: Moros Turret Cap usage rate needs to be changed, if rate of fire bonus is increased. "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams |
Evil Celeste
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:46:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Evil Celeste wrote:Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts. That's something rather different than what he suggests, thoughGǪ
Sorry then for misunderstanding. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
623
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 13:46:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you. So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless Do you fly a scimitar around and expect to win everything? No? Could that possibly be because it's a ship with a specific role?
Well shucks, imagine that, so is the supercarrier and titan. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
441
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:47:00 -
[1125] - Quote
Anile8er wrote:Shadowsword wrote:Anile8er wrote:I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship. You can still dps structures as fast as 15 players in battleships, same against other capitals, and can absorb as much damage as 100 battleships. If an enemy fleet of your size and composition choose to focus you first, your sacrifice win the fleet battle. What? Do you have any idea how fast super caps die in fleet fights? 20 SC focused on my Nyx and I'm down in just under 4 minutes, thats with my hardners on and overheated. 100 man BS gang can down me in about 2 minutes after they neut me completely of any cap and turn off my hardners. This is the reality, for all those who cry about supercaps having "MASSIVE" EHP and being indestructable. All this talk about supercaps have 100MIL EHP! Really? X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on. Hel - 25 million EHP Wyvren - 32 million EHP Nyx - 36 million EHP Aeon - 56 million EHP Hardners off (it takes 50 BS each with a neut under 60 seconds to drain a supercap to 0 cap) Hel - 7 million EHP Wyvren - 9 million EHP Nyx - 15 million EHP Aeon - 23 million EHP Yeah 100 mil EHP super carriers with no weakness that just cant be killed by subcaps! right.....
..and in the 100mil EHP scenario, it's supers vs supers so they still die within minutes. this is a signature |
Furb Killer
12
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:47:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you. So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless Well finally one of the whiners understands it. Yes you are supposed to go everywhere you go with a super with a support fleet. Just like you dont use a dread without support (well you can do it for a specific task, but if you run into some opponents you are ******). |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
379
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:48:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Dirk Tungsten wrote:Evil Celeste wrote:Dirk Tungsten wrote:Evil Celeste wrote:Yes, this is exactly the thing most people are against - ability to fend of subcaps. Supercaps should not be able to do it easily, you should have support fleet for that.
If you gave them just "few" drones, with remote ecm bursts, neuts and "few" drones a squad of supercaps could completely clear floor with bunch of hics that are hoping to keep at least 1 or 2 of them.
Thats why Im for completely removing fighters from scs.
lol some people just are clueless. After this patch a single dictor and bunch of frigits will be able to over a period of time able to kill a super/titan, its just insainly stupid this whole new dynamic in the winter patch. And this is how exactly it should be! Supercarriers must have their support fleet, if they are going solo, they deserve to die. Pure stupidness.
No dude, it's quite good actually. A Supercarrier cost lots of billions, you're supposed to use it like an aircraft carrier. That means, you won't go solo, or else a single lone submarine will sink you in the first 20 nautic miles. Or, you could have gone with a support fleet.
But I agree on the fact that supercarrierblobs are the problem, not the supercarriers themselves.
A supercapfleet is a fleet you can't kite, you can't neut it enough (hardeners have 10s cycles, if neuting was really a common tactic vs supercapblobs, they would have capboosters juste to keep hardeners running), you can't speedtank it, you can't triage (logistics will get DDs, commandships aswell, same goes for expensive bhaalgorns and such) and absorb damage from it, you can't tackle it (Except with dictors and hictors, but they will get blown up in the first minute), you can't ECM or damp or web, you can't kill an endless stream of drones, and the lag generated from 40 supercarriers using 20 drones each (800 drones btw) keeps guns from cycling correctly and whatnot. That's why it's broken. The fact that no valid tactic is available to win or at least fight vs that kind of supercapital blob. |
Evil Celeste
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:48:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you. So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless
Holy jesus yes! It is that unbelievable? Do you really want to always fly supercarriers and titans and fight only other supercarriers and titans?
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Kahrnar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:49:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Kahrnar wrote:So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you. So do you fly everywhere you go with a support fleet? Give me a break No offense at all makes it useless Do you fly a scimitar around and expect to win everything? No? Could that possibly be because it's a ship with a specific role? Well shucks, imagine that, so is the supercarrier and titan.
Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol |
Furb Killer
12
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:50:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Quote: X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on.
Oooooh I got an idea. Get into the freaking fleet......
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Nox Virago
Invictus Australis Northern Coalition.
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:51:00 -
[1131] - Quote
WarFireV wrote:Sakaali wrote:1) Without sentry drones supercarriers are unable to attack POS. Is this intentional then?. Then use dreads dumby :P
Genius comment <--- (sarcasm). Lemme just dock the ole Nyx in the station and swap out for a dread... |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
623
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:52:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol I guess you're not quite comprehending the concept of "a specific role". |
Evil Celeste
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:53:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote: Ok well Carriers>SuperCarriers now...that makes perfect sense lol
Yeah. Enjoy carriers popped every 30s by 10 moms. |
Liranan
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
62
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:54:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Liranan wrote:You missed the entire Nozh affair? You missed the threadnoughts about how CCP had destroyed an idea everyone, bar a few devs, had wanted? Why don't you go back and read up on it all, before you start pointing fingers of blame? For those who don't remember: Nozh was the guy who started messing around with reasonably acceptable numbers in every direction imaginable, and who, when it was pointed out to him that things wouldn't work the way he envisioned them, suggested using TPs on ewar-immune shipsGǪ
The ewar immune ships were sieged dreads. Nozh told us to target paint sieged dreads. Pages upon pages of people laughing at him led him to never poast again. Every single alliance in game laughed at Nozh, it was that ridiculous.
Furb Killer wrote:I have a Moros, I have sieged it while still moving at zero from an ihub. I hit it fine, think I was even top damage dealer.
But really eve is math. Sure you need to properly apply it, but things like missing POS's due to tracking are things you can really easy put in the tracking formula (or let EFT do it for you), and you simply get the truth back. They hit for full damage, their tracking is sufficient. What are you saying then? The tracking formula is wrong? Eve = math, deal with it.
Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.
Ignorance is bliss. http://www.youtube.com/user/zeitgeistmovie?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/23/Lio3n66bwOo This ****'s got to go - Jacque Fresco |
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:54:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Hi CCP,
The best way it's to remove completly the fighter to sc. Only fighterbomber.
If you have 20 nyx on the field without support. You have again 200 fighters on the field and with 200 fighters it's impossible to tackle with hid.
Don't forget that the supercarrier can still cap transfert and cap remote. If you have 20 nyx how many bhaalgorn do you need to cut the RR of 20 nyx. More then 100 ...
I have often see more then 20 nyx and the field but i have never see 10 bhaalgorn on the field ...
Remove completly the fighter from supercarrier and the subcap have some chance to kill some massive blob of super without support |
TheButcherPete
Titan Inc. Bloodbound.
96
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:55:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Giggles.
My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -á-á-á
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Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:55:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Karim alRashid wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: fighters are an anti bs drone.
OK, they may be now, but tell me why they SHOULD continue to be so? Quote:other wise a carrier has no defence against a bs. Why heavy and sentry drones cannot be used by carriers against BS? heavys and sentrys do minimal damage against a bs. where as fighters will damage a bs.
Not at all, they can do 900+ dps, which is pretty good for a damage to a ship a class lower. This damage is almost TWICE the damage a bonused drone BS can do to another BS.
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Evil Celeste
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:58:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Liranan wrote: Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.
Holy jesus this guy is clueless... go get some clue about tracking mechanics.
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Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
546
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:58:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Kahrnar wrote:a ship with NO offence is useless...lol
What about the guardian then? Or any Cov-ops for that matter?
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Furb Killer
12
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:58:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Liranan wrote: Don't ever let go of maths, oh geat EFT warrior. While you're at it, telling yourself dreads do full damage to stationary targets, ignore those 'barely hit shots'.
Ignorance is bliss.
Yes, while you ignore those wrecking hits. That some shots barely hit doesnt mean you do less than your max DPS. You also get them when you are not moving at all and shooting that POS or ihub.
But most importantly question remains: are you really telling me that eve is not simply based on math? Of course you have to properly apply it, you cannot say that a thorax has better dps and ehp than a cyna, so it will beat a cyna. But things like will my dread hit the POS or not are simply putting it in a well known tracking formula and observe the result.
EDIT: btw you do realise if you are not moving yourself and the POS generally also isnt very fast, tracking doesnt play a role, right? |
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