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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:25:00 -
[1]
Eve started early again today, at about 12:45.
This caught a lot of players out, despite the fact it happened yesterday. So for the first 10 minutes or so, there were only about 200 players on.
I started in a region I know has low priced robotics. I checked the SD map.
There were two sources of supply remaining; this is after the game had been up for all of sixty seconds.
The reason there were two sources of supply remaining is because both those systems have two or more stations selling robotics, so remote buy orders don't work (they're bugged for systems with more than one source of supply).
I happened to be *in* one of those systems.
I was unfortunately in the wrong station; so I placed an in-system remote buy (these do work).
However, this buy order did not execute, it queued.
So I undocked and warped to the other station.
When I had arrived, the supply had gone.
So had the supply in the other system (which was about 10 hops away, so I never would have got it anyways).
So, what can we conclude from this?
We conclude that remote buys are instantly soaking up the entire low price supply of robotics when the game starts, leaving only the system with dual supplies since remote buys are bugged.
Trading now is therefore a case of placing a remote buy order and waiting till your order is fufilled after a reboot.
This is crazy. Utterly crazy.
Any market which permits region wide queued remote buying MUST evolve to a point where the only way to trade is to place such a buy order and then simply wait for it to be fufilled.
What this means is that the degree of access to the market a player has depends on how much money he has in the first place.
A rich player will be able to soak up supply for a looooong time. He will make vasts profits and monopolise the *entire region* for ages. A poor player will only be able to afford a small supply, and once his funds are exhausted, he must again wait for all the other region wide buy orders to be processed, till his new buy order finally gets to the head of the queue of orders.
I do believe the market is now penalising poor traders; they are effectively excluded from the highly profitable commodities, since these are monopolised by the rich players, and can only trade in low profit goods.
As a final note, changing the market over to real-time instead of reset-based won't help. A single rich player will place a region wide buy order and soak up the slowly generated supply for *ages*. What happens now of course is that region wide buy orders are placed and soak up supply for many resets.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 14/07/2003 12:31:21
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Fortoye Drak
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:43:00 -
[2]
This was predicted well in advance of release and is no surprise.
All you can do is put in your own bid and join the "lottery" as to who gets what.
Press Liason
Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:50:00 -
[3]
Just to clarify something, you mentioned that there were only 2 sources of robotics left...
In most regions the good tradibles have less than that.
And why complain about orders, why not use them. I have been a trader since Eve shipped in the US. I have never just sold straight away. Takes an extra day to get money, but in the end I make more than those who twitch there way through a route.
In short grow up, learn how to use the system as it is. The old saying "No risk no isk" is fitting.
Thanx and good day. :D
EDIT: Just noticed this... ""A rich player will be able to soak up supply for a looooong time. He will make vasts profits and monopolise the *entire region* for ages. A poor player will only be able to afford a small supply, and once his funds are exhausted, he must again wait for all the other region wide buy orders to be processed, till his new buy order finally gets to the head of the queue of orders""
Guess what..that's the POINT! How else are you going to 'control trade routes'? You have 2 options in this case. 1. Whine about it here. 2. Find out who owns the route/supply(it's easy just buy 1 item and it tells you in your wallet/journal who sold it to you.) and get your corp mates to help you kill them. Eventually they will lose their control when they need to buy more ships.
Edited by: Malais on 14/07/2003 12:53:48
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:52:00 -
[4]
Quote: All you can do is put in your own bid and join the "lottery" as to who gets what.
I tried that two days ago.
Know what I got?
I got 34 units of robotics.
Normal supply in Domain is about 25,000 units.
Who got the rest? and how much money did he make from it? so he's even richer now - which means he can dominate the market even *more*.
-- Callas
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:54:00 -
[5]
Quote: In short grow up, learn how to use the system as it is. The old saying "No risk no isk" is fitting.
Saying "grow up" does not help those traders who do not have very much money. They cannot enter the market because the supply is so strongly dominated by those who are rich.
What's more the fact is having the market like this *blows*. It truely sucks. I don't think any of us SHOULD be thinking "it's okay, we just need to adapt". A market like this needs to be *rejected*, not accepted.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 14/07/2003 12:54:38
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 12:57:00 -
[6]
""Who got the rest? and how much money did he make from it? so he's even richer now - which means he can dominate the market even *more*. ""
Guess this should be taken as a sign that your tactics don't work. This is the same as saying you keep losing a 1v1 fight with someone. They keep killing me...Guess what do something different, find some way to beat him, don't just whine about it.
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:00:00 -
[7]
""Saying "grow up" does not help those traders who do not have very much money. They cannot enter the market because the supply is so strongly dominated by those who are rich. ""
There are MANY ways to make money other than trading. In fact unless you have a nice sum to start with trading just isn't practicle. I started trading when I could buy enough of an item to fill an order completely. At the time that was around 10 mil.
""What's more the fact is having the market like this *blows*. It truely sucks. I don't think any of us SHOULD be thinking "it's okay, we just need to adapt". A market like this needs to be *rejected*, not accepted. ""
Hrm works fine for me and most other traders. So since you can't make your uber cash we should all band together? I worked hard to get the trade routes I have now, you want to take them away I'm game if you wish to try. However YOU will have to do it, don't go whineing to CCP or they'll nerf the markets like they did combat. ;)
And as for the there is no way to get in remark... It's the same for combat. Those who have BS and all the higher skills will ALWAYS defeate those who don't.
There are MANY flaws in Eve, the market isn't one that I'd put at the top of the list.
Edited by: Malais on 14/07/2003 13:02:41
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:04:00 -
[8]
Quote: Guess what do something different, find some way to beat him, don't just whine about it.
If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears.
I'm not stupid, and I've been playing Eve since beta 6. I think that if someone has a region wide buy order, *it can't be beaten*.
The only thing you can do it play the same game, and that's *awful*. It's a terrible game because the only people who can play are those who are rich.
Once the NPC trade market has been monopolised, then you have to make money in the other ways Eve offers; pirate farming or mining, neither of which make very much. Player manufacturing is not an option since it too is currently broken.
-- Callas
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:09:00 -
[9]
The thing i wonder at the moment about is, how they can write "EVE (..) persistent world game" on the main page if such large part of the system as the whole galaxy market gets reset everyday... o.O
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:16:00 -
[10]
Sounds like someone got beat out of their nice little profit run. How long have you been enjoying that run?
If you had placed your order (the same that your whining about) in the correct station you would have beat out someone else and you wouldn't be posting about this unless of course they placed their order before yours (the way it should work). Have you placed your order today for tomorrow already?
You seem to post when it affects you and not until then. Think about the other guys you beat out of that robotic market for all those days. The market is absorbed within an hour of restart and it has been like this for a long time.
A small note::::
Sell orders used to stack on top of other sell orders. Meaning if you you put in a sell order for the same price as the lowest sell order yours would sell first. They fixed that one but now if you check it out, buy orders do the same it seems.
Put in a buy order for anything just as long as nothing else is for sale at that station or 1 isk lower priced so it is the first up. Example: 100 isogen for 64 isk. Sell one and you see that your buy order bought it and you got the money less tax of course. Now place another order for 100 isogen at 64 isk. Sell another. Now go look at your buy orders. SURPRISE you now have two buy orders with 99 isogen showing that the second order placed was filled first.
What does this mean? Yes it's borked but hey just place your order now 1 minute before reset and ! Voila ! yours get filled first.
Ok Callas now you can tell me to f#** off and all that.
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Silmaril
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:16:00 -
[11]
Why should small time traders have access to the highest worth commodities? Thats not how it works in a real economy. Big companiues get richer, while small companies only ever get rich if they find a niche. And then they normally get bought out anyway.
"Do not waste your tears. I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men." |
Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:23:00 -
[12]
Cant u place buy orders for more than the NPC price? Like if an item costs 1200 isk you offer to buy an X amount @ 1250 isk/unit. That way you can outbid someone even though his buy order is larger you still get your share. Granted it will cut your profits but at least you dont have to wait till eternity.
The largest problem with trade goods is that there is no PC demand for them.
As for Player-build stuff ... a lot of folk apparently dont understand how a market works and rather cut their prices than to increase them.
I thought a while back I read something somewhere around here the Empires were frowning upon selling stuff too low and it could even affect your security status. Ah well... must have been my twisted mind :)
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:46:00 -
[13]
Thank-you Will. If I had posted that answer I would have been flamed.
:D
Nice to see that some people have the general idea.
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:52:00 -
[14]
Quote: Sounds like someone got beat out of their nice little profit run.
Indeed so. I was making money in the trade market, buying goods at A, taking goods from A to B and selling at B, and now I cannot. I am not pleased.
It's also not just *me*. It will be the majority, if a rich player is placing a large buy order.
Quote: If you had placed your order (the same that your whining about) in the correct station you would have beat out someone else and you wouldn't be posting about this unless of course they placed their order before yours (the way it should work). Have you placed your order today for tomorrow already?
Your attitude is that we *should* all play the market in this way. I think that sucks, for the reasons outlined in the original post; it's a game only the rich can play.
Just to be clear, *I* can play, because I have 150m ISK. I think things should not be like this.
Quote: You seem to post when it affects you and not until then.
That would be because I hadn't noticed it occuring until it affected me...odd, eh?
As opposed to your suggestion, which is that I cynically use the flaw to my own advantage until it doesn't work any more and then complain.
FYI, I have placed *one* region wide order, two days ago, to see what would happen.
Quote: Think about the other guys you beat out of that robotic market for all those days.
I competed with about six other people. None of us AFAIK have been using region wide buy orders, and we've all had a fair share of the market; those of us which worked harder and spent more time in the market got proportionally more return.
Quote: Sell orders used to stack on top of other sell orders. Meaning if you you put in a sell order for the same price as the lowest sell order yours would sell first. They fixed that one but now if you check it out, buy orders do the same it seems.
Sell orders are irrelevent. They only work if you have the goods in the correct station. The buy stations vary a great deal each day. It's *buy* orders which are the issue.
Quote: [snip buy order bork]
That's fascenating - and distressing.
Quote: Ok Callas now you can tell me to f#** off and all that.
I am myself, nono. I am not whatever it is you think of me, or other people in general, or yourself.
-- Callas
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:56:00 -
[15]
Quote: Cant u place buy orders for more than the NPC price? Like if an item costs 1200 isk you offer to buy an X amount @ 1250 isk/unit. That way you can outbid someone even though his buy order is larger you still get your share. Granted it will cut your profits but at least you dont have to wait till eternity.
I have no idea if that works or not.
TBH, I think it will not work; I would expect the game to match the sell order against the *first* buy order of a high enough value - after all, the sell price is *given*. The seller has stated he is happy as long as he gets that amount. I doubt the engine optimises profits; I **really** doubt CCP has considered the situation where multiple buy orders are stacked and waiting for the reboot to occur.
Quote: As for Player-build stuff ... a lot of folk apparently dont understand how a market works and rather cut their prices than to increase them.
Quite so. But even if they did, why would anyone buy their kit when the pirate loot is better?
-- Callas
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:15:00 -
[16]
*shakes head*
Your concern Callas is not for the game or other players. Your concern is for yourself. Something affects you and it becomes an issue that is affecting the entire game.
You can spin it all you want. Oh yes how you can spin anything to come up smelling like a rose everytime. Your posts of past clearly define this. You lost out on your cash cow run today and are ****ed off about it, so now the sky is falling and CCP should rush to correct it because lord knows it's killing the game for the new players.
Nice that perhaps your post might get things changed but it's nothing new, and whatever changes are made are not going to guarantee that you get what you want everyday. Until the day comes that things are reserved for you exclusively I think we will see more posts like this from you.
As for telling me to F@*# off. Only put that in from posts of your past. I figured it was coming and well with this post it probably will.
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Starwolf
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:15:00 -
[17]
I believe that trade goods need to be able to be produced from BP's. It would appear that the complete supply chain can then be created from:
Minerals --> Trade Goods --> Station Demand.
As far as I can tell, without stations this is unachievable. A station with it's population would require most if not all of the available goods and this could stop the mad post downtime rush.
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Sanru
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:29:00 -
[18]
Why would they ? It's simple, if your the patient type and plan to hunt pirates, you know you will get those drops anyways. So you spend less cash buying stock parts to hunt for the pirate drops. As you replace stuff, just place it on the market to get your money back.
They do need to do something about folks selling at or below mineral value of items though.
For one thing, remove standard componants entirely from pirate loot tables. I'll even include ammo and missiles in that. May need to tweak drop rates to compensate so it is still worthwhile to hunt pirates.
Second, if someone sells at or below the base mineral value of the item, the npc brokers see the good deal and snatch it up right away. Then turn it around and sell at some determined fair market value. Players putting in orders to buy items at or below base mineral value get sanctioned (sec status hit, trade goods and the minerals themselves exempt).
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:39:00 -
[19]
Quote: *shakes head*
Your concern Callas is not for the game or other players. Your concern is for yourself. Something affects you and it becomes an issue that is affecting the entire game.
So...you're saying region wide buy orders are *NOT* an issue for the entire game?
Kindly provide some reasoning.
Quote: You can spin it all you want. Oh yes how you can spin anything to come up smelling like a rose everytime. Your posts of past clearly define this. You lost out on your cash cow run today and are ****ed off about it, so now the sky is falling and CCP should rush to correct it because lord knows it's killing the game for the new players.
I've not lost out, because I *can* play the buy order game. I'm rich. I can buy up the entire low priced robotics supply in a region.
Describing my arguments as "spin" does not *make* them spin. If they are spin, then there should be obvious flaws in my reasoning.
You should point out these flaws if you wish to make a counter-argument.
You have not done so. Indeed, in fact, given the way you write, it's bloody obvious you don't like *me*. Your dislike has over-riden your intellect and you have taken up a position which has no foundation, and so we find you here failing to make real arguments and resorting to general trashing.
Quote: As for telling me to F@*# off. Only put that in from posts of your past. I figured it was coming and well with this post it probably will.
*Wierd*, dude. I don't arbitrarily insult people. Why are you saying that I do, and that you expect this to happen? it's disturbing and insulting.
-- Callas
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:43:00 -
[20]
I am not a trader. There was a time I intended to trade but everytime I checked the market I couldn't find any trade routes. Small wonder if the market works like this.
I am with Callas here: the system stinks. All those who yell 'no it's OK because *I* know how it works' should consider this:
How is a new trader supposed to find trade routes at all? He checks the market and sees no supply. He checks the next region and sees no supply. He goes to a third region and sees no supply. Then he has to bid his time doing low-profit runs which are even worse than agent missions or mining. It's nice that you can use your insider knowledge to *your* advantage (exactly what you are accusing Callas off if you shouldn't have realized by now) but it is about impossible for a fresh trader to ever get access to the good routes if he doesn't get a hint by your cartell or puts up buy orders in every region to check where the supply is (which actually involves him *knowing* that there is a hidden supply that is dry seconds after server comes up). This is utterly wrong.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:55:00 -
[21]
My only real problem with this is that it takes place outside of the game.
The daily reset irradicates any "permanence" to the system and thus the "reactive market" is a total fallacy.
Daily reset makes the current situation exploitable, smply on the basis that it exploits the daily reset... not that its an "exploit".
It certainly doesn't look like a design intention.
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:04:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Cant u place buy orders for more than the NPC price? Like if an item costs 1200 isk you offer to buy an X amount @ 1250 isk/unit.
Quote:
TBH, I think it will not work; I would expect the game to match the sell order against the *first* buy order of a high enough value - after all, the sell price is *given*. The seller has stated he is happy as long as he gets that amount. I doubt the engine optimises profits; I **really** doubt CCP has considered the situation where multiple buy orders are stacked and waiting for the reboot to occur.
I think the opposite--I would be really surprised if it didn't work. And if it didn't work, I'd call it a bug because regardless of whether sell orders get placed at the reboot or over time, that's just how the market has got to function.
You want to get first in line? You just have to be willing to pay more.
Edited by: Ansuul on 14/07/2003 15:04:51
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:12:00 -
[23]
Yes I agree trading is kind of fubared. If you buy the same things that everyone else buys then yea your gonna get screwed.
The market however is still quite saturated.
For instance. I tried trading last week for the first time. I spent a few days looking around finding prices/demand/supply. I watched the market when the servers went up.
This Saturday I started with 5 million, after 6 hours I had made 54.25 million in profit.
You just have to think outside the box.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:15:00 -
[24]
I don't trade so no insider use here.
The system is miserable, you get no argument from me. It has been this way for a very long time. Strange how it is presented as a new issue.
And Callas if your insulted thats a shame. I really wish I could dig up old posts and show you your repsonses of past. Yes it was expected.
Region wide orders are not the problem as you can place orders at each station if you want. If nothing comes of it then the order stands empty. If it gets filled you have to have the cash or get some lame fine from concord.
When the Bullsh*t of placing 1 isk orders all over the galaxy was the thing to do CCP's response was the market is working fine. Just place a buy order higher and you will get the sale. Does it work as intended? Does it work when the price is higher then demanded? It should of course but we are talking about CCP here. Also it won't stop the 11th hour placing of orders just before downtime.
Sorry for approaching you Callas as I have. The issue at hand is a valid one for sure and has been addressed many times before. I just find it hard to beleive you just noticed it. You have posted many times on the subject of the market and how it opperates so one would think you are quite knowledgable. This time it seems it directly messed up your day and led to your posting about it. Hence my rather tainted reply.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:24:00 -
[25]
Quote: I watched the market when the servers went up.
Most Euros are (should be) at work when the server comes up... none of them will have a chance to watch the market. Features shouldn't be available to players at certain times of the day only...
In fact it is ridicolous how the supply and demand depend on server downtimes. Wouldn't it be more logical if new sources would be opened *randomly* after an old source has been depleted?
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Teris Kender
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:44:00 -
[26]
I have to agree that this 'resetting' that takes place EVERY day is silly.. Why not every two or three days?
But what is more silly is the fact that there are players that are sitting at their computers ready to jump on the market in the first seconds of the reboot! Come on...
There are plenty of other trade items available. You can make money on items other than robotics you know. Just because that is the 'best' and the 'easiest' doesn't mean you have to jump on it too.
I loathe players that elbow each other for the same juicy plumb. There's a whole freakin' orchard out there boys and girls...
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.07.14 15:52:00 -
[27]
Actually I play in EST. The reason why the market is fubared is because of what Callas said. Remote buy orders.
All I have to do is go to the station where I know the supply will be, place a huge buy order and 8 hours later when I get home the stuff is there waiting for me.
It really doesnt matter if your Euro/North America/wherever. Place a buy order and pick it up when you get the chance.
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.14 16:09:00 -
[28]
More reasons for the random reseeding they talked about a month ago.
I have given up trading for now, the market tools are great again but the market they serve is bugged and unuseable, and I still can't use my Trade skills or even develop new ones.
x a n e |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 16:34:00 -
[29]
Quote: I have to agree that this 'resetting' that takes place EVERY day is silly.. Why not every two or three days?
A lot of people trade. If the trade routes were not reset each day, then after one day, there would be nothing worth trading and trade would cease until the next reset.
Quote: But what is more silly is the fact that there are players that are sitting at their computers ready to jump on the market in the first seconds of the reboot! Come on...
Until the advent of the use of region wide buy orders, this was the only way to get a really profitable trade.
The difference in profit between immediately post-reset and the rest of day is vast. That's why people are poised for the restart.
Quote: There are plenty of other trade items available. You can make money on items other than robotics you know. Just because that is the 'best' and the 'easiest' doesn't mean you have to jump on it too.
I have compiled an exhaustive list of NPC trade goods, their volumes, source and demand regions and prices.
Frankly, the NPC trade market is borked, too.
There are four or five goods which stand out, far superior to the rest. The average good just isn't worth the effort of trading.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 14/07/2003 16:40:05
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Spike Spiegel
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Posted - 2003.07.14 17:04:00 -
[30]
I just finally began trading a few days ago and only made about 5 mill in a day. Trading what im not saying as it took me too god damn long to find this route....
Anyway on the subject....the buy order thing is lame...any noob who wants to be a trader as told on the game box is setting themselves up for a big dissapointment when they find that all the rich older players have a stranglehold on the regions.
Also, I think the actual goods themselves need to be looked at stat wise. Robo should have a bigger volume than 1 IMO and alot of ther of the trade items should be alot lower than they are. This would actually make them profitable and people would want to trade them.
Lastl, I think any route that can really bring in the big ass money say 1mill+ per run should involved going out into non-empire space. Think about it...you see all the convoys out there? If theres so damn many of those why the hell would these statons need us to transport for them? Its the non empire regions that need these goods as they cannot produce their own.
And for the record I am a Pirate too who hasnt fubared his security rating...yet =)
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