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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 17:52:00 -
[31]
""Your attitude is that we *should* all play the market in this way. I think that sucks, for the reasons outlined in the original post; it's a game only the rich can play.""
Sorry Call but that is how YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PLAY. That is the way the market was designed. If CCP hadn't intended it to work this way they would have removed the region buy/sell orders from the code.
So Like I said before, your tactics aren't working, try something else.
And you wanted an example so here ya go.
EX: Person A has a buy order for water at 50 isk each. The sell price in the region is 55. Go to the station that has the supply you want(You can now even use the journal to check where there is a supply/demand) and put in a buy order for 51 isk each. Guess what since your order is higher than the NPC sell price your order gets fill FIRST! Regardless of the order the others are in. Wow for at most a 1 isk per unit loss in profit, you get all the supply you want. You can do the same in reverse for sell orders, they will be filled first as well.
USE THE SYSTEM, DON'T JUST SIT AND WHINE BECAUSE YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE PLAYING BY THE RULES!
Thanx and btw "Here's your sign."
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 17:55:00 -
[32]
""How is a new trader supposed to find trade routes at all? He checks the market and sees no supply. He checks the next region and sees no supply. He goes to a third region and sees no supply..."""
In respose to this, CCP fixed the advanced market buy/sell history. You can check the supply/demand history of ANY ITEM IN THE GAME. Very easy to find a route from this info.
Eve is not like other MMORPGs for the simple reason that stratagy plays a major role. You have to THINK to succeed in Eve. The devs aren't going to hand you the 'golden path' you seek.
BTW "Here's your sign."
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.07.14 18:48:00 -
[33]
/me hugs MALAIS
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:01:00 -
[34]
Quote: In respose to this, CCP fixed the advanced market buy/sell history. You can check the supply/demand history of ANY ITEM IN THE GAME. Very easy to find a route from this info.
But ah...having found a route, how do you trade in it? remember, the problem we're discussing here is rich players monopolising the supply with region wide buy orders. I don't think there is a way around that.
-- Callas
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Teris Kender
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:03:00 -
[35]
"A lot of people trade. If the trade routes were not reset each day, then after one day, there would be nothing worth trading and trade would cease until the next reset."
Well, no. There may not be any 'Robotics' or whatever the good-of-the-week is. But try to be inventive Callas. The resets don't have to happen at a regular intereval, they can be random.
"Until the advent of the use of region wide buy orders, [waiting to jump online after downtime] was the only way to get a really profitable trade."
"The difference in profit between immediately post-reset and the rest of day is vast. That's why people are poised for the restart."
I've made millions hours after reset. Aren't you happy with your 150mil? Can't buy EVERYTHING in your region yet? Sorry Callas, your original post made you sound like you were concerned about the poor trader and the market system....sounds like you are back pedaling. Sounds like you are not getting enough candy from the pinata...
"I have compiled an exhaustive list of NPC trade goods, their volumes, source and demand regions and prices.
Frankly, the NPC trade market is borked, too.
There are four or five goods which stand out, far superior to the rest. The average good just isn't worth the effort of trading."
Really? I've been doing well...
Callas, you simply are just too much of a cry baby. If you are so upset why don't you leave and play something else? Please don't reply that you love this game and you want it to be the best...because the truth is you want it to be the best for Callas.
Yes, EVE has some problems...but don't make them your personal problems.
Edited by: Teris Kender on 14/07/2003 22:06:35
Edited by: Teris Kender on 14/07/2003 22:08:06
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:05:00 -
[36]
Call I have already explained that in a post above this one. Read it bro, set buy/sell orders buy orders 1 isk higher and sell orders 1 isk lower.
Upon reset, the first sell orders (demand) that are filled are those that are below normal NPC buying prices, then first come first served. Same with NPC buy orders (supply) only in reverse.
BTW Having said the same thing to you 2 times in the very same post, I would give you another sign...but you prolly can't read it.
:D
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:06:00 -
[37]
Sorry board burped and double posted.
Hey look at it this way...
FREE AD SPACE!
Edited by: Malais on 14/07/2003 23:44:31
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:10:00 -
[38]
Quote: Well, no. There may not be any 'Robotics' or whatever the good-of-the-week is. But try to be inventive Callas. The resets don't have to happen at a regular intereval, they can be random.
Supply is eaten up rapidly after a reset. Very rapidly. We're talking 15 minutes, tops. It only takes one rich player per region to consume an entire supply of commodity, and the rich players know exactly where to go for each commodity.
Random resets every couple of days equals no trading.
Quote: I've made millions hours after reset.
That's nice. I make 10m every day in three hours. My best was 27m. I have no desire to trade in a chancy market where I might make a few million every few days if I get lucky, living off the left-overs of the uber-rich traders who monopolise the market.
Quote: Aren't you happy with your 150mil? Can't buy EVERYTHING in your region yet? Sorry Callas, your original post made you sound like you were concerned about the poor trader and the market system....sounds like you are back pedaling. Sounds like you are not getting enough candy from the pinata...
Dude, whether or not I am this, that or something else, the argument I made stands on it's own two feet. Newbies are excluded from the market, and that's wrong.
Quote:
Quote: There are four or five goods which stand out, far superior to the rest. The average good just isn't worth the effort of trading.
Really? I've been doing well...
Maybe you're trading one of the decent goods. Or maybe your idea of "well" is awful compared to my idea of "well". It is perhaps relevent to note here that I have 150m ISK and you apparently do not.
Quote: -- Callas
You need to remove my sig from your post.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 14/07/2003 22:11:42
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:11:00 -
[39]
Ok when the board burped it triple posted it
:/
Edited by: Malais on 14/07/2003 23:45:19
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.14 22:15:00 -
[40]
Quote: Call I have already explained that in a post above this one. Read it bro, set buy/sell orders buy orders 1 isk higher and sell orders 1 isk lower.
Upon reset, the first sell orders (demand) that are filled are those that are below normal NPC buying prices, then first come first served. Same with NPC buy orders (supply) only in reverse.
This doesn't work.
Question for you; what happens when everyone starts doing this?
Answers on a postcard please, addressed;
Thinking About The Next Development Competition, PO Box 1, Lai Dai Corporation Factory, New Caldari.
The other reason it doesn't work is that it still means poor players are excluded from the market; they still can only buy a very small fraction of the available profit. The market remains monopolised by the uber-rich.
Remote buying needs to *go*. Buying should only be possible by travelling to a station and picking up the goods yourself.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 14/07/2003 22:17:17
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Teris Kender
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Posted - 2003.07.14 23:04:00 -
[41]
Callas:
"Dude" you just commented on your own quote...
Do you even read these posts man?
Let me see if I understand this...you complain about the 'uber' rich buying the market...yet you are the 'uber' rich (or at least you brag as much). So, you are some benevolent rich guy looking out for the poor investor?
?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.14 23:26:00 -
[42]
"It only takes one rich player per region to consume an entire supply of commodity, and the rich players know exactly where to go for each commodity.
Random resets every couple of days equals no trading."
How do you conclude that? Is every trader in Eve too spoiled and lazy now to bother to look up new routes when they no longer have their magic combo?
BTW, completely random resets wouldn't make much sense... random reallocations of demand, maybe... but the supply should normally come mainly from specialized stations, methinks...
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 23:37:00 -
[43]
Callas is a lost cause. I explain to him how I trade. (Yes it does work btw callas) When he started complaining about not being able to trade.
I explained it to him as best I can. Only thing I didn't do was post a route I use.
To be a trader you need 3 things.
1. A brain. You have to be able to look at the advanced market journal to find where there is a supply and demand after the resets.
2. Patience. You will spend quite a bit of time looking for the route that suits you. Basicly one that fits your cash flow, indi size, and within your personal jump limit. (This is why no one will post a route they use.)
3. Money. I'd say 4-5 mil in cash is a good place to start. I started with 10 mil so I could place buy/sell orders and not have to worry about the 'twitch' trading factor.
Call the system works. And it works for lots of people. If you don't WANT to use it, do something else. Eve is full of posibilities. Heck if you still want to trade go out and explore. I found a region that hadn't been touched. It was in low sec. space but then again I'm not against a little challenge.
I'm sorry you lost your route, but it doesn't mean the system is flawed. It seemed to work while you were running the route before, so what changed?
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.14 23:52:00 -
[44]
""The other reason it doesn't work is that it still means poor players are excluded from the market; they still can only buy a very small fraction of the available profit. The market remains monopolised by the uber-rich.""
Ummm ok so by your logic, since the people who have higher skills will always be able to defeat the 'poor n00bs' the training system must be fubared as well.
Can a n00b kill a 50k pirate? NO Will they be able to later, yes. Can a n00b (like you aparently) control a trade route and make 4 mil isk per day? No will they be able to later? Yes.
So what if n00bs can only make 500k isk per route? Does someone who decides to play now deserve the right to make insane amounts of isk? According to you everything must be fair. Guess what the real world isn't fair. Those with money can do things that those without can't. Same with eve.
Do you think I started out as a trader? No I mined and killed rats till I had money to start with. A n00b should NEVER BE ABLE to make 1 mil per run. So they can only access a small part. Does that make it any less fun?
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Laarz Kaledon
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Posted - 2003.07.15 00:43:00 -
[45]
The other reason it doesn't work is that it still means poor players are excluded from the market; they still can only buy a very small fraction of the available profit. The market remains monopolised by the uber-rich.
Remote buying needs to *go*. Buying should only be possible by travelling to a station and picking up the goods yourself.
*********************************************** Right on, even if you put in a buy order 1 isk above what everybody else put in, you still are only going to get one load.. especially if you only have 10-12 million isk total. 10-12 million of robotics will fill my badger once...Once people...
Oh boy, I get one badger full of robotics per day... lol And my money is tied up to boot...
Also, remote buy orders take 50% of the work out that trading should generate. You should have to fly around and buy, etc. Instead of just coming on and having full hangars of robotics spread across a region using your favorite stations.
There's no work in that and millions are generated... especially when compared to other ways of making isk in EVE.
You guys are jumping on Callas for looking out for himself, when you all are doing the same thing.. Not wanting your money-maker nerfed.
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Grinning Dragon
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Posted - 2003.07.15 01:31:00 -
[46]
okay, going off-topic slightly here (I agree that the random reseed as mentioned in the Dev Blog last month is a mandatory requirement):
Trade Goods: What good are they? We haul them back and forth for what purposes? To Make Money! Okay, that part makes sense.
Now comes the real poser: Who needs them? NPC's? Give me a break. A little bit of logic could work wonders here: Until Planets are implemented into the game we're stuck with what's happening on Stations. If we consider that the NPC's going through their daily (tedious/mundane) existance are using and producing some of them, then the demand should stay somewhat stable.
What is needed is for Stations to determine the supply/demand. Highly populated stations (no office space here) would require things like: Food, Water, Oxygen, Data Sheets, etc. Factories: Robotics, Mechanical parts, Electronic Parts, Synthetic Oil, etc. Laboratories: Electronic Parts, Data Cubes, Robotics, etc Medical (cloning and Implant Tech): Drugs (like Antibiotics), etc. Repair Facilities: Mech Parts, Electronic Parts, etc.
Get the drift? Good.
Perhaps the Station Managers can improve Production/Research efficiency, or reduce Clone, Insurance Costs by having a well-stocked and supplied station. By the same token, those Station Managers who get lax in their duties would reverse those attributes, and would end up going as a crate of Slaves on the next outbound Bestower. ;)
I don't know, but this kind of stuff would add a whole lot more depth to the game.
Now, back to your topic.
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Taxet
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Posted - 2003.07.15 03:33:00 -
[47]
Ok, quick question for one of you experienced traders from a noob.
When looking at the history table for a commodity I see volume listed as a ratio, such as 5/9326 or 52/179271. What does this represent exactly?
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Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.15 04:38:00 -
[48]
Taxet, that is number of sales/total volume. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
nono
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Posted - 2003.07.15 05:44:00 -
[49]
It's a simple spin is all it is.
Callas wants his ten million in three hours everyday and thats the bottom line.
Dress it up in some pathetic long drawn out story about how its killing the market and hurting newbs. The market has been this way for quite a while and Callas certainly knows it. Even without regional buy orders you need only to fly to the stations and set your order. Something I'm sure Callas will be doing before server downtime.
Cut the bullsh*t and play the game. This has nothing to do with newbs and hurting the play of others. If it was you wouldn't be making ten million everyday in three hours. Your golden heart would leave the goods on the market so they might have a chance at the same.
Oh but maybe your robinhood and grabbing those items before some other greedy trader screws over the newbs you speak of, to make your ten million so you can give them the money.
The Callas donation to newbs fund. Just to help them out.
PhFFFFFFFFT. Spin Spin Spin Look everybody it's an issue!
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.15 07:18:00 -
[50]
Quote: Sorry Call but that is how YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PLAY. That is the way the market was designed. If CCP hadn't intended it to work this way they would have removed the region buy/sell orders from the code.
OK, so please all people who complain about the loot tables: STFU! It's set in stone and designed to be that way. All people who complain about roids not respawning: STFU! It's designed to be that way! All people who complained about stamped heatsinks: you should have STFU! It was designed to be that way.
Duh... what a logic. If something is ill designed or has flaws (and traderoutes respawning every 24h (and always the same traderoutes, too)) is flawed.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.15 07:45:00 -
[51]
In fact the whole tradegood market as it is designed now actually has no place in a MMOG. Why? Because it is nothing than a money press. It serves no other purpose. The tradegoods aren't actually needed for *anything*. There is no player market or any real competition - in fact there isn't even NPC demand as they don't need tradegoods to manufacture other tradegoods (wouldn't it make sense if a station could only produce robotics if mechanical parts, electronics, coolant and some other goodies where delievered there?). So what does 'controling the trade of a region' mean? That you can buy every single item of one type. What does it achieve? What consequences does it have? You print money. Otherwise it has absolutely no consequences for other players.
CCP could have learned much from Jumpgate (which has a flawed economy, too - I *was* one of the pro traders there on the EU server) here: if tradegoods were actually needed to produce other tradegoods (as outlined above) or even equipment there would be *real* options for economic warfare there. As it stands now trading is a no-brainer once you have figured out the traderoutes and how you have to abuse the system: set up buy orders, deliver to the station you always deliver to and print money. There is no real player involvement and as it stands now it has nothing to do with skill but sheer luck and monetary power how much of the cake you get once you have figured out what to take from where to where (and even I know that robotics are by far not the best trade item). Again we know where money presses will lead to from Jumpgate: inflation. In a game like EVE where money is the only factor determining what you can and can't pilot or command (except of time for skill training) that is even worse than in a game with a leveling treadmill. Sorry for the rant that may be a bit off-topic but I think this thread has the right audience to prove that I am wrong :)
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:01:00 -
[52]
Quote: How do you conclude that? Is every trader in Eve too spoiled and lazy now to bother to look up new routes when they no longer have their magic combo?
I think that the first routes to go will be the most profitable routes, then people will turn to the lesser routes and pretty quickly, nothing left.
I think there are a *lot* of people trading.
-- Callas
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.15 12:23:00 -
[53]
"I think that the first routes to go will be the most profitable routes, then people will turn to the lesser routes and pretty quickly, nothing left."
But random reallocations of demand(/supply) don't mean the profitable routes disappear. It merely means these locations of profitable demand(/supply) has to be found again when they reallocate. Which is one of the major points in the very concept of trade so your prediction simply makes no sense...
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.15 12:29:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Quote: I think that the first routes to go will be the most profitable routes, then people will turn to the lesser routes and pretty quickly, nothing left.
But random reallocations of demand(/supply) don't mean the profitable routes disappear. It merely means these locations of profitable demand(/supply) has to be found again when they reallocate. Which is one of the major points in the very concept of trade so your prediction simply makes no sense...
My mistake. I didn't realise you were arguing for random scattering of supply and demand at each reset; I thought you were asking for random intervals between resets, with the resets being as they are now.
-- Callas
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.15 21:21:00 -
[55]
""OK, so please all people who complain about the loot tables: STFU! It's set in stone and designed to be that way. All people who complain about roids not respawning: STFU! It's designed to be that way! All people who complained about stamped heatsinks: you should have STFU! It was designed to be that way.""
This is a stupid comparison, for a number of reasons. First off did I say ANYTHING about loot tables? Uhhh nope. Second CCP has been tweaking the loot tables since release. In the very first patch the addressed the issue of ships droping as loot from convoys.
Please if you want to speak to the group, do try and keep up with the conversation.
"Here's your sign."
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.15 21:25:00 -
[56]
"""Callas wants his ten million in three hours everyday and thats the bottom line.
Dress it up in some pathetic long drawn out story about how its killing the market and hurting newbs. The market has been this way for quite a while and Callas certainly knows it. Even without regional buy orders you need only to fly to the stations and set your order. Something I'm sure Callas will be doing before server downtime.
Cut the bullsh*t and play the game. This has nothing to do with newbs and hurting the play of others. If it was you wouldn't be making ten million everyday in three hours. Your golden heart would leave the goods on the market so they might have a chance at the same."""
LOL!!! I think you just figured out Callas' little secrete. Actually I think he just likes to b!tch. He can't make his money the way 'he wants to' so something must be messed up.
I can't take down a BS with my n00b ship. Something must be fubared. I think maybe trading is a bit tough for you, try something else like pirate hunting, or do a few agent missions. There ARE other ways to make money.
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.15 21:27:00 -
[57]
"""Right on, even if you put in a buy order 1 isk above what everybody else put in, you still are only going to get one load.. especially if you only have 10-12 million isk total. 10-12 million of robotics will fill my badger once...Once people..."""
OMG someone else who is mad they can't make the 5-6 mil profit that the 'big boy' traders make. If you don't have the capital to play the trading game, take what you can get. Capitalism at it's best. I truely fail to see the problem.
Those who have more isk are supposed to have an advantage. Same thing in a fight, those with the bigger ships/guns are going to have an advantage.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.15 21:43:00 -
[58]
Every time I look at this topic, I have to wonder how many people are actually upset about the issue, which has existed since beta. And how many are upset they can't fully capitalize on the lack of PC pirates.
Since it has not been commented on during release for the most part...until their departure.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.15 21:46:00 -
[59]
Quote: Every time I look at this topic, I have to wonder how many people are actually upset about the issue, which has existed since beta.
The flaw has existed, as you note, since the inception of Eve.
However, the degree of impact abuse of the flaw has depends on the number of people taking advantage and how much capital they have.
For example, consider the surgical strike bug. It existed since the inception of Eve, but it simply didn't matter *until* people cottoned onto it.
Likewise, knowledge of the remote buy flaw is spreading, and the number of uber-rich players who can truely exploit that flaw has of course grown over time.
I think now the degree of impact of this flaw is really showing up on the radar, and the final long term consequences are very serious indeed; after all, we are talking in the end about the paralysis of the NPC trading market.
TBH, I don't think this will be fixed for a long time. The PC manfucturing market has been borked for ages by the existance of pirate loot, and that's just as serious a matter.
-- Callas
Edited by: Callas on 15/07/2003 21:49:12
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Laarz Kaledon
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Posted - 2003.07.16 08:57:00 -
[60]
So, Malais, are you defending your side of the argument, cause you're a big boy trader and that your logic too is spawned by greed?
Just cause you started trading in june and I started in july shouldn't make it where you control the market and can purchase 200mil of goods to my 10-12 mil of goods to fill my one lil badger a day..
You truly see nothing wrong with this? I guess you find it funny that you sound like Bill Gates at a government hearing?
Sheesh, I just want all professions to be able to function and be money-makers whether it's doing agent missions, fighting pirates, trading some goods, etc.. and right now trading is pretty much impossible, unless you started in may or june like you obviously did.
Oh, and the buy orders just make it so you don't have to be up at 5 am making the wife mad and she thinking you're some kind of online gaming freak.
**Incoming nerf** **Panic Attack Malais** =))))
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