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Nowayim Analt
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.02.03 07:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
What the title says. I'm returning to EVE after a break of a couple years. Before I left, I did a lot of industry and relied on the Orca's corp hangar to safely move stuff around in hisec.
With the new "fleet hangar" being scannable + lootable, I'm having to revisit my hauling M.O.
The options:
1) Freighter: a ton of EHP, but potential gankers can take all the time in the world to scan + evaluate me. A couple years ago the threshold at which ganking a freighter became profitable was about 1B. What's it at now?
2) Max-EHP Orca: I'm not positive about the best fit for this, but I can probably hit ~240k EHP or so. Let's assume an Orca's 31.5k m3 + 40 m3 (31.5k because of reinforced bulkheads II) is enough for my purposes. What's the threshold where killing a ~240k EHP orca becomes profitable?
3) Fastest-align Orca: no clue if this is reasonable compared to max-EHP. I doubt it.
4) Blockade runner: I actually think the cargo hold being unscannable is a BAD thing for these guys. It means any ganker out there looks at me, at best, as a lottery ticket, and at worst as a must-gank. Its biggest advantage is that it can cloak while moving... but I'm only ever both moving and unsafe while aligning towards the next gate, and a properly-executed MWD+cloak maneuver means I enter warp almost immediately after dropping my cloak on a non-blockade runner anyway. Which brings us to:
5) Deep space transports. It has the exact same warp time as an Orca (assuming I'm doing MWD+cloak), lower EHP, less cargo, is a smaller target to bump, and has a natural +2 warp strength.
Basically, I think:
1) The max-EHP Orca, the BR, and the DST are all roughly equal for a ganking fleet to target + scan me. In other words, they're all roughly as hard to get to the point where you can choose to engage me or not.
2) The BR denies gankers any information on whether to engage or not. This might actually be a bad thing. As an added insult, it'll be impossible for me to safely AFK autopilot an empty BR anywhere.
3) The Orca's raw EHP imposes a higher DPS threshold on the would-be gank fleet if they do decide to engage. Some fleets will have enough DPS to kill a DST but not an Orca.
4) The DST, on the other hand, requires more skill + preparation on the part of the fleet. They'll need to either bump me within 10 seconds of decloak, or have 3+ (more like 5+, I'd probably fit warp core stabs) points on me.
I'm leaning towards the Orca but can't really decide. Thoughts? Equally importantly, am I missing anything? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1534
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Posted - 2013.02.03 08:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
From my point of view nothing has changed.
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Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
197
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Posted - 2013.02.03 08:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Common sense prevails, do not haul multi-billion isk cargo's in your freighter, split them up into value not size.
Yes it's frustrating moving freighters that are nearly empty but reduce the reward = reduce the risk.
I try to aim for no more than 800mil in a freighter, dunno if that's a good target (in both senses of the word target)
I do agree with the blockade runner being unscannable is a bad idea, I rarely carry anything of value in mine, it's just a handy good sized cargo ship, but meh if it get's assploded then so be it, it's eve afterall. |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
18
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Posted - 2013.02.03 08:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
It is more about being smart and adapting than dropping the ships you use.
75% of the time if you keep your hold less than 1 billion you likely won't have much problem, less than 500 mil and you likely won't have any issue. While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold it is still moreso not autopiloting everywhere with an expensive load than anything else. Because the key to overcoming a possible gank is to reduce the time they can get to you, so if you reduce that to align and warp instead of the 15km of autopilot chances are they will not have an easy time aligning and warping on site and getting you down before you warp and/or concord comes. This is especially true if you fit your orca with a damage control as that will make dessie ganks very hard, thus requiring tier 3 BCs.
Another key is to not keep everything in a single stack. Spread it out a little as it makes the drop chances worse for loads, as a single big pile has a 50% drop rate, whereas several smaller piles have individual drop rates. This means (iirc) if you did get ganked with say 5 piles, you now have anywhere between a 1/5th chance or a 5/5 chance all of the piles will drop. This also means don't use cans to move stuff because then everything in that can relies on its drop chance, if it drops everything drops with it.
Essentially it boils down to being smart and making ganking less profitable and/or as hard as possible. I have never had a problem with ganking (mostly because I keep my loads cheap as possible). I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
Skorpynekomimi
405
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Posted - 2013.02.03 09:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Stop flying afk. THAT'S a start.
Otherwise, just tank your damn ship, maybe fit warp scrams/etc, and fly smarter. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2566
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Posted - 2013.02.03 11:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Courier Contracts (for general cargo).
Tanked BR (for somewhat expensive BPOs/small cargo).
Tanked Recon (for expensive BPOs).
Tanked Cloaky Tengu (for when you gotta Titan BPO). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
941
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Posted - 2013.02.03 13:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:Stop flying afk. THAT'S a start.
Otherwise, just tank your damn ship, maybe fit warp scrams/etc, and fly smarter.
Yeah cuz with a almost 1min align time you'll be able to warp to your next gate before gankers can get you.
On the otherhand, HS is a lot safer these days. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1534
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Posted - 2013.02.03 15:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Yeah cuz with a almost 1min align time you'll be able to warp to your next gate before gankers can get you. With a 100MN MWD an Orca warps in 10 seconds.
I have an alt that pretty much lives in a Charon (Caldari Industrial 5). In fact, I currently have a fleet of 6 Charons. I've never had problems with gankers, but then I don't AFK with cargo.
When I'm really feeling paranoid, I'll put a scout in a Hyena (Minmatar Electronic Attack Frigate - has a bonus to web range). |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
864
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Posted - 2013.02.03 15:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
I don't see how you can ever get ganked in a BR unless you are in null. Just hit cloak right after you start warp/align. Are you talking about afk hauling here? Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Nowayim Analt
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.02.03 17:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:From my point of view nothing has changed.
Er...
1) Previously, gankers had no way to get their filthy mitts on anything in the corp hangar. Now they can.
2) Previously, both gankers in general and people trying to target you specifically had no way to tell whether you were hauling valuable cargo or not. Now they can.
Both seem pretty game-changing to me.
I suppose you could argue that, regardless of the abilities gankers do or do not have because of the changes, the way you want to fly to minimize gank risk is still the same (i.e. MWD+cloak and don't fat-finger any buttons). Is that what you were going for?
Emma Royd wrote:Common sense prevails, do not haul multi-billion isk cargo's in your freighter, split them up into value not size.
Lord Battlestar wrote:It is more about being smart and adapting than dropping the ships you use.
75% of the time if you keep your hold less than 1 billion you likely won't have much problem, less than 500 mil and you likely won't have any issue.
I know I can help convince gankers to not hit me by hauling cargo less valuable than the ships required to blow up my hauler. I'm asking for the thresholds for a freighter and a ~240k EHP Orca so I can make that judgement. (I assume a DST and a BR can't ever reach high enough EHP to be a serious deterrent, i.e. it'll never take more than a couple hundred million worth of gank ships to blow one up.)
Lord Battlestar wrote:While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold it is still moreso not autopiloting everywhere with an expensive load than anything else.
Could you elaborate? What effect did tier 3 BCs have on the thresholds I mention above? |
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Nowayim Analt
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.02.03 17:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:Otherwise, just tank your damn ship, maybe fit warp scrams/etc, and fly smarter.
What on earth are you talking about? To help stave off gankers, you want me to scramble them so they can't flee from my incredibly threatening Orca?Edit: I assume you meant stabs. Yes, yes, I use those when appropriate.
RubyPorto wrote:Tanked Recon (for expensive BPOs).
I actually hadn't thought of that. I've usually flown BPOs around in shuttles because of the incredibly fast align + incredibly small sig radius. You think a recon would be better? Why?
Mr Kidd wrote:Skorpynekomimi wrote:On the otherhand, HS is a lot safer these days. Could you elaborate? [quote=Tau Cabalander]I have an alt that pretty much lives in a Charon (Caldari Industrial 5). In fact, I currently have a fleet of 6 Charons. I've never had problems with gankers, but then I don't AFK with cargo.
I really don't see why people are making such a big deal about flying AFK or not in freighters. It's going to take an eon to align either way. I'm glad you haven't had trouble with your Charon, but isn't that more an issue of whether or not you haul more than ~1B at a time, not so much whether you're manually piloting or not? |
Nowayim Analt
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.02.03 17:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:I don't see how you can ever get ganked in a BR unless you are in null. Just hit cloak right after you start warp/align. Are you talking about afk hauling here?
No, no, no, I am not talking about AFK hauling. (Except potentially freighters, where I don't see a big difference. See above.)
A BR can be ganked when (1) some fast-fingered ganker begins locking me in the quarter-second between me dropping my gate cloak and me using the cloak module. (Someone starting to lock you prevents you from cloaking, right? They don't actually need to lock you?) Of course that's not terribly likely, but with lag you can never be 100% sure.
An Orca can be ganked when both (1) happens (the window's a bit bigger for the Orca and DST, since I have to hit the MWD and then wait a bit to make sure the server knows I activated the MWD before the cloak) and the gank fleet has enough dps to chew through ~240k EHP. That's less likely than a BR. Additionally, with an Orca or DST, I will never run into a ganker that decides it might be profitable to gank me without bothering to scan me. In a BR that's a possibility.
A DST can be ganked when both (1) happens and the gank fleet is able to either bump me in the 10sec it takes my MWD to cycle, or they can get 3+ (or more, if I fit stabilizers) points on me in that same 10sec. Again, this is less likely than the BR. I'm curious what people think about this vs. the 240k EHP orca. |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
18
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Posted - 2013.02.03 19:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nowayim Analt wrote:Lord Battlestar wrote:While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold it is still moreso not autopiloting everywhere with an expensive load than anything else. Could you elaborate? What effect did tier 3 BCs have on the thresholds I mention above?
They are cheaper but have the same amount of DPS as a BS meaning you don't have to make as much to replace their cost. So you can go for lower end cargos and still come out on top as you still have plenty of DPS but the cost per ship is lower.
I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
Perkin Warbeck
Amarrian Space Poodles 24eme Legion Etrangere
113
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 20:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Skorpynekomimi wrote:Stop flying afk. THAT'S a start.
Otherwise, just tank your damn ship, maybe fit warp scrams/etc, and fly smarter. Yeah cuz with a almost 1min align time you'll be able to warp to your next gate before gankers can get you.
If you have an alt in the same corp scouting and webbing you through each gate then your align and warp time is reduced to a few seconds. Still the best defence against a ganker is not to attract their attention in the first place. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2567
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 20:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold
No, they didn't. Ganking with tier 3 BCs is more expensive than an equivalent gank was before their introduction. Quite a lot more expensive.
Why do people keep forgetting that Insurance for gankers disappeared at the same time tier3 BCs appeared? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2567
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 20:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nowayim Analt wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Tanked Recon (for expensive BPOs). I actually hadn't thought of that. I've usually flown BPOs around in shuttles because of the incredibly fast align + incredibly small sig radius. You think a recon would be better? Why?
Reasonably big shield tank, can warp cloaked, can align ridiculously fast. (Falcon does 101k EHP, aligning in 4s (remember, all align times round up to the second because of the way the server works)). Just don't use a Pilgrim, they slow. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
443
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 20:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:Nowayim Analt wrote:Lord Battlestar wrote:While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold it is still moreso not autopiloting everywhere with an expensive load than anything else. Could you elaborate? What effect did tier 3 BCs have on the thresholds I mention above? They are cheaper but have the same amount of DPS as a BS meaning you don't have to make as much to replace their cost. So you can go for lower end cargos and still come out on top as you still have plenty of DPS but the cost per ship is lower. while it is true teir 3 BCs are cheaper DPS, this was also counter acted by the change to insurance made at the same time. before even when concorded you could collect insurance. now you can use cheaper ships, but do not get any compensation from insurance. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
864
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 20:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nowayim Analt wrote:Zifrian wrote:I don't see how you can ever get ganked in a BR unless you are in null. Just hit cloak right after you start warp/align. Are you talking about afk hauling here? No, no, no, I am not talking about AFK hauling. (Except potentially freighters, where I don't see a big difference. See above.) A BR can be ganked when (1) some fast-fingered ganker begins locking me in the quarter-second between me dropping my gate cloak and me using the cloak module. (Someone starting to lock you prevents you from cloaking, right? They don't actually need to lock you?) Of course that's not terribly likely, but with lag you can never be 100% sure. An Orca can be ganked when both (1) happens (the window's a bit bigger for the Orca and DST, since I have to hit the MWD and then wait a bit to make sure the server knows I activated the MWD before the cloak) and the gank fleet has enough dps to chew through ~240k EHP. That's less likely than a BR. Additionally, with an Orca or DST, I will never run into a ganker that decides it might be profitable to gank me without bothering to scan me. In a BR that's a possibility. A DST can be ganked when both (1) happens and the gank fleet is able to either bump me in the 10sec it takes my MWD to cycle, or they can get 3+ (or more, if I fit stabilizers) points on me in that same 10sec. Again, this is less likely than the BR. I'm curious what people think about this vs. the 240k EHP orca. Last time I checked, you can't lock onto someone that has already activated cloak (you decloak and re-enter cloak showing your ship icon for a second). If you start warp and don't hit cloak for a few seconds than yes, but warp then cloak? You are talking about half a second. No one is going to lock you.
Regardless, I just don't see how you can get ganked in high/low in a BR unless you are afk autopilot.
But as Tau said above, nothing really changes. Just fly smart and you won't get ganked. I've never even had an attempt. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2567
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Posted - 2013.02.03 20:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nowayim Analt wrote: A BR can be ganked when (1) some fast-fingered ganker begins locking me in the quarter-second between me dropping my gate cloak and me using the cloak module. (Someone starting to lock you prevents you from cloaking, right? They don't actually need to lock you?) Of course that's not terribly likely, but with lag you can never be 100% sure.
Wrong.
Press Warp > Press Cloak the moment you see your ship start turning. You will cloak in the next server tick after you start aligning. They can only start locking you in the server tick after you start aligning and will take at least one server tick to finish locking.
...........Your actions.....Ganker's actions Tick 1: Press Warp.....Nothing Tick 2: Press Cloak....Start Locking Tick 3: Disappear ......Lock fails. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
18
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Posted - 2013.02.03 21:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
I wasn't even including insurance. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2570
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 22:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:I wasn't even including insurance.
And that is why your statement that Tier3 BCs "lowered the bar" for ganks is flat wrong. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Skorpynekomimi
405
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 22:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nowayim Analt wrote:Skorpynekomimi wrote:Otherwise, just tank your damn ship, maybe fit warp scrams/etc, and fly smarter. What on earth are you talking about? To help stave off gankers, you want me to scramble them so they can't flee from my incredibly threatening Orca?Edit: I assume you meant stabs. Yes, yes, I use those when appropriate.
Of course I meant warp stabs. I don't know why I wrote scrams. |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
20
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Posted - 2013.02.04 01:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Then enlighten me, There is no sense it telling people they are wrong and not giving good evidence on why they are. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2570
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 01:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:Then enlighten me, There is no sense it telling people they are wrong and not giving good evidence on why they are.
Did you bother to read the rest of the thread, where the reasons you're wrong were detailed?
I'll spell it out real slow.
Pre-Crucible, the lowest cost gank ship with 10k Alpha cost ~40m to lose. Post-Crucible, the lowest cost gank ship with 10k Alpha cost ~70m to lose.*
40 is less than 70, so Crucible made ganking more expensive.
*Numbers are approximate. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Vqu
NSIDE Finance Of Sound Mind
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 10:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
The only real you get get ganked in a BR is if you have a ton of other pilots on the gate and someone happens to be next to you preventing you from cloaking up. However this is eaisly avoided by looking at your overview before you start aligning to the next gate.
NSIDE Finance [EPAX] is a Science and Industry Corporation. We specialities in research-áof -áBPO's and Ship Manufacturing.
-áFreighter Store: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2276672#post2276672 |
Night Beagle
Insidious Design
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 15:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:[quote=Mr Kidd] With a 100MN MWD an Orca warps in 10 seconds.
There is your answer. A tanked Orca with 100mn MWD...and never fly afk.
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Ujio Sendai
Reclamation Technologies Bioco Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.02.06 15:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:It is more about being smart and adapting than dropping the ships you use.
75% of the time if you keep your hold less than 1 billion you likely won't have much problem, less than 500 mil and you likely won't have any issue. While tier 3 battlecruisers have lowered the threshold it is still moreso not autopiloting everywhere with an expensive load than anything else. Because the key to overcoming a possible gank is to reduce the time they can get to you, so if you reduce that to align and warp instead of the 15km of autopilot chances are they will not have an easy time aligning and warping on site and getting you down before you warp and/or concord comes. This is especially true if you fit your orca with a damage control as that will make dessie ganks very hard, thus requiring tier 3 BCs.
Another key is to not keep everything in a single stack. Spread it out a little as it makes the drop chances worse for loads, as a single big pile has a 50% drop rate, whereas several smaller piles have individual drop rates. This means (iirc) if you did get ganked with say 5 piles, you now have anywhere between a 1/5th chance or a 5/5 chance all of the piles will drop. This also means don't use cans to move stuff because then everything in that can relies on its drop chance, if it drops everything drops with it.
Essentially it boils down to being smart and making ganking less profitable and/or as hard as possible. I have never had a problem with ganking (mostly because I keep my loads cheap as possible).
I didn't ever think about separating my cargo into multiple stacks to increase the chance of loot loss. "Thumbs up!" |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
86
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 16:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think you are both wrong. The overall odds are the same in either case. The only difference is that breaking up the stack decreases the odds of nothing dropping. Personally if I had the choice between ganking a target with 2B in one stack, and a target with 2B in 10 stacks I'm going to gank the latter as I'm very likely to get 1B in loot. In the case of the former I'm rolling the dice on a single stack dropping. I guess it depends if the gankers are fond of the gamble or are just in it for the tears with loot just paying expenses. |
Ujio Sendai
Reclamation Technologies Bioco Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.02.06 16:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes, you are right that it decreases the chances of getting nothing, but it almost guarantees that they will not get the full haul. Obviously consideration of the overall value of what you carrying is still important, as well as ganker motive. |
Sarkin Vol
xAngelcynnx Angelcynn.
2
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Posted - 2013.02.07 15:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Courier Contracts (for general cargo).
Tanked BR (for somewhat expensive BPOs/small cargo).
Tanked Recon (for expensive BPOs).
Tanked Cloaky Tengu (for when you gotta Titan BPO).
this is an awesome tldr i use my legion for all bios and red frog for expensive cargo |
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