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Vytoryn
Final Dimension
8
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Posted - 2013.02.05 03:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
i beleve ive found a bug in the Reactive Armor Hardner
1 Active Armor Hardner activation cost (30 GJ) 2 cost (60 GJ) thats (3 GJ) drain to ship capacter
1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner activation cost (42 GJ) thats (5.1 GJ) drain to ship capacter
Im using a random ship with a captecer cap of (31.7 GJ)
Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner
i incurage people in EVE to look |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Nulli Legio
335
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Posted - 2013.02.05 03:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
I encourage you to use a spell checker. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7068
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Posted - 2013.02.05 04:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c
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Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
908
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Posted - 2013.02.05 04:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count.
No wonder inflation is out of control.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Brandon Syne
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2013.02.05 04:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
I love your avatar OP. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
475
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Posted - 2013.02.05 04:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
I tried getting my eyebrows as expressive as the OP's when I made my avatar but they wouldn't budge enough. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
1827
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Posted - 2013.02.05 06:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wait....Armor tanking is broken?!?!?! :::gasp::: Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1536
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Posted - 2013.02.05 07:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner Because it adapts, can reach 60%, and doesn't get stacking penalized like two hardeners?
I use one on my mission ship, and quite like it. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2226
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Posted - 2013.02.05 07:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count. No wonder inflation is out of control.
This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count. I'll probably-ábe banned for this |
Generals4
Liandri Covenant
1712
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Posted - 2013.02.05 07:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:i believe i've found a problem in the Reactive Armor Hardner
1 Active Armor Hardner activation cost (30 GJ) 2 cost (60 GJ) thats (3 GJ) drain to ship capacter
1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner activation cost (35.7 GJ) thats (5.1 GJ) drain to ship capacter
i have Armor Resistance Phasing at level 3 at the time of this post
Im using a random ship with a captecer cap of (31.7 GJ)
Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner
i encurage people in EVE to look
This math makes no sense. Maybe you should actually write down all the variables?
Who am i kidding, this is GD. I'll do it for you:
Reactive armor hardener: 42 GJ per 10 seconds => 4.2GJ/s Active Armor Hardener II: 30 GJ per 20 Seconds => 1.5GJ/s => 2 Armor Hardeners => 3 GJ/s -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
595
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Posted - 2013.02.05 07:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count.
If he can count how come the votes for him in CSM7 didn't Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
168
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Posted - 2013.02.05 07:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:i believe i've found a problem in the Reactive Armor Hardner
1 Active Armor Hardner activation cost (30 GJ) 2 cost (60 GJ) thats (3 GJ) drain to ship capacter
1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner activation cost (35.7 GJ) thats (5.1 GJ) drain to ship capacter
i have Armor Resistance Phasing at level 3 at the time of this post
Im using a random ship with a captecer cap of (31.7 GJ)
Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner
i encurage people in EVE to look
You've failed to mention that the Reactive armor hardener drains more capacitor than 3 active armor hardeners.
Additionally, no, you do not have a random ship, nor does it have a capacitor capacity of 31.7 GJ.
The ibis has among the lowest capacitor capacities of any ship in the game, and it has a capacitor capacity (base) of 130 GJ. The 31.7 GJ your ship has, is the peak capacitor recharge rate.
Furthermore, Since the reactive armor hardener can fill the role of multiple active armor hardeners, while occupying only one slot, it allows you to fit something else in that/those other low slots instead. Since capacitor is your issue, we will fit a beta reactor control: Capacitor power relay, instead. In this case, your peak capacitor recharge rate is increased by 24%, or an increase of 8.6 GJ per second. Therefore:
2 Active armor hardeners consume a net of 3GJ of capacitor per second, with a fitting requirement of 72 CPU, with the bonus of being able to overheat. 1 Reactive Armor hardener + 1 BRCCPR PRODUCES a net INCREASE of 3.5 GJ/second, at the expense of 27 cpu, the same amount of lowsecs, and has the ability to adapt to other resistances than just the 2 the active ones go to.
I think it's pretty clear to see that your entire post is based on a fallacy: That 2 Active armor hardeners use less capacitor than 1 Reactive Armor hardener, and a capacitor module. (You cannot argue against fitting the capacitor module, when the 2 active hardeners would take the two slots, and capacitor is the issue.) |
Whitehound
654
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Posted - 2013.02.05 09:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner This is a good question.
The Reactive Armor Hardener can have up to 60% resistance against a single damage type. It does so by automatically shifting the resistances in 2%-steps per cycle towards the highest incoming damage type. Further, is the resistance provided by the Reactive Armor Hardener not penalized when used together with Active Armor Hardeners and other resistance modules (except for when used with a DCU afaik).
When one trains the Armor Resistance Phasing skill will the energy need increase. The module will adjust its resistances faster (+10% speed bonus) and the skill will reduce the energy need a little (-5%), but it still drains more energy than at a low level:
Level 1: 39.9 GJ activation cost, 9s activation time = 4.43 GJ/s Level 5: 31.5 GJ activation cost, 5s activation time = 6.3 GJ/s
When compared to Active Armor Hardeners in terms of "How much resistance per GJ/s do I get?" then one needs to consider that an Active Armor Hardener can always only protect against a single damage type with 55%(T2) resistance, while the Reactive Armor Hardener can protect with up to 60% against any of the four damage types.
So why does it need more energy than two Active Armor Hardeners?
When looking at a random or an omni damage pattern then two Active Armor Hardeners give on average an 18.6% additional resistance (after stacking). The Reactive Armor Hardener does only give 15% on average. However, the Reactive Armor Hardener does so by using only a single low-slot and by requiring 24 CPU / 1 PG whereas two Active Armor Hardeners need two low-slots and 72 CPU / 2 PG.
So when using a Reactive Armor Hardener instead of two Active Armor Hardeners can you use the free low-slot for either a second resistance module (i.e. an EANM II) or a Capacitor Power Relay and either get more resistances or more energy on your ship than you will have with two Active Armor Hardeners. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Anderron Shi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.02.22 04:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Unblock me Vytoryn! Get some! |
General Nusense
Not Posting With My Main
39
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Posted - 2013.02.22 06:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count. No wonder inflation is out of control. This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count.
yeah trust a self absorbed douchebag that never logs in to the game. way to goon.
rip goonswarm.
hello goonswarm mkIII
darius JOHNSON for CEO.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2050
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Posted - 2013.02.22 09:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: So when using a Reactive Armor Hardener instead of two Active Armor Hardeners can you use the free low-slot for either a second resistance module (i.e. an EANM II) or a Capacitor Power Relay and either get more resistances or more energy on your ship than you will have with two Active Armor Hardeners.
RAH @ 30% + EANM II with max skills is much less resistance than an active hardener, and it uses over twice as much cap as two active hardeners. (6.3 cap/s vs 3 cap/s with all Vs)
It's a good module for ships that could fit 3 EANMs, or have two resists holes and not that many lows, but it does not replace rat-specific hardeners on typical PVE fits. But if you have the cap, 2 active hardeners + RAH is better than 2 hardeners plus EANM for your resists in PVE. With four slots, you're again better with 2 active hardeners of each... and for the fifth slot, RAH is better than either a DCU or EANM II.
It allows for example 89.29 % kin/therm resists on a PVE Brutix with non-pimp modules, which is not bad at all.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Abrazzar
888
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Posted - 2013.02.22 11:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
For missions, the reactive armor hardener is great. I always had three hardeners in but I switched the double for the reactive. So now I have a hardener against the two main damage types of the mission and the reactive one adapts to the relation of the damage delivered in opposite to the fixed amount of resistance normal hardeners offer.
Result is that during a Sansha Vengeance, I get 30/30 em/therm in the first room, the second room I go full em and in the third, I even get some towards kinetic because of the missiles from Kuvakei. I got to 94% em resistance on my Abaddon. That's definitely worth the extra cap. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
902
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Posted - 2013.02.22 11:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count. No wonder inflation is out of control. This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count.
But only to 500 million. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Whitehound
928
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Posted - 2013.02.22 12:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Roime wrote:Whitehound wrote: So when using a Reactive Armor Hardener instead of two Active Armor Hardeners can you use the free low-slot for either a second resistance module (i.e. an EANM II) or a Capacitor Power Relay and either get more resistances or more energy on your ship than you will have with two Active Armor Hardeners.
RAH @ 30% + EANM II with max skills is much less resistance than an active hardener, and it uses over twice as much cap as two active hardeners. (6.3 cap/s vs 3 cap/s with all Vs) It's a good module for ships that could fit 3 EANMs, or have two resists holes and not that many lows, but it does not replace rat-specific hardeners on typical PVE fits. But if you have the cap, 2 active hardeners + RAH is better than 2 hardeners plus EANM for your resists in PVE. With four slots, you're again better with 2 active hardeners of each... and for the fifth slot, RAH is better than either a DCU or EANM II. It allows for example 89.29 % kin/therm resists on a PVE Brutix with non-pimp modules, which is not bad at all. The EANM II was an example. Fit something else when you do not like it. Just stop reasoning why something has to be in some way when you only do not like it.
I prefer to fit the Reactive Armor Hardener next to a Thermal Armor Hardener. The Thermal Armor Hardener is to reduce the thermal component of laser and hybrid weapon damage (plus it helps against Gallentean drones) and the Reactive Armor Hardener then either covers the EM or the kinetic component of these two weapon types. This alone makes the Reactive Armor Hardener more worth than fitting 3 hardeners, because I am using my low-slots more efficiently and do not waste a low-slot for a resistance type I might not need. If I can then fit a Cap Power Relay II for 24% more cap onto a BC or BS do I get more energy back than the Reactive Armor Hardener needs. Or I can fit another damage mod and spend even more cap if I wanted to. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
128
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Posted - 2013.02.22 20:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote: 1 Active Armor Hardner activation cost (30 GJ) 2 cost (60 GJ) thats (3 o/o) drain to ship capacter
1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner activation cost (35.7 GJ) thats (5.1 o/o) drain to ship capacter
Vytoryn wrote:Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner
Christopher AET wrote:I encourage you to use a spell checker. And a calculator. |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2055
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Posted - 2013.02.22 20:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Roime wrote:Whitehound wrote: So when using a Reactive Armor Hardener instead of two Active Armor Hardeners can you use the free low-slot for either a second resistance module (i.e. an EANM II) or a Capacitor Power Relay and either get more resistances or more energy on your ship than you will have with two Active Armor Hardeners.
RAH @ 30% + EANM II with max skills is much less resistance than an active hardener, and it uses over twice as much cap as two active hardeners. (6.3 cap/s vs 3 cap/s with all Vs) It's a good module for ships that could fit 3 EANMs, or have two resists holes and not that many lows, but it does not replace rat-specific hardeners on typical PVE fits. But if you have the cap, 2 active hardeners + RAH is better than 2 hardeners plus EANM for your resists in PVE. With four slots, you're again better with 2 active hardeners of each... and for the fifth slot, RAH is better than either a DCU or EANM II. It allows for example 89.29 % kin/therm resists on a PVE Brutix with non-pimp modules, which is not bad at all. The EANM II was an example. A single hardener then only covers a single damage type. Fit something else when you do not like it. Just stop reasoning why something has to be in some way when you only do not like it. I prefer to fit the Reactive Armor Hardener next to a Thermal Armor Hardener. The Thermal Armor Hardener is to reduce the thermal component of laser and hybrid weapon damage (plus it helps against Gallentean drones) and the Reactive Armor Hardener then either covers the EM or the kinetic component of these two weapon types. This alone makes the Reactive Armor Hardener more worth than fitting 3 hardeners, because I am using my low-slots more efficiently and do not waste a low-slot for a resistance type I might not need. If I can then fit a Cap Power Relay II for 24% more cap onto a BC or BS do I get more energy back than the Reactive Armor Hardener needs. Or I can fit another damage mod and spend even more cap if I wanted to.
I'm not reasoning against the module, I use it on many ships (Proteus, dual rep Myrm, neut Domi etc) and it's awesome, but it does not give the higher resists or lower cap life in the situations you described.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Ohanka
227
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Posted - 2013.02.22 20:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:i believe i've found a problem in the Reactive Armor Hardner
1 Active Armor Hardner activation cost (30 GJ) 2 cost (60 GJ) thats (3 o/o) drain to ship capacter
1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner activation cost (35.7 GJ) thats (5.1 o/o) drain to ship capacter
i have Armor Resistance Phasing at level 3 at the time of this post
Im using a random ship with a captecer cap of (31.7)
Why does a Reactive Active Armor Hardner drain more capacter then 2 Active Armor Hardner
And you can use only 1 Reactive Active Armor Hardner and the ship i used was a cruiser
I am thumbing up your post entirely because of your avatar, good sir.
North Korea is Best Korea |
Whitehound
941
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Posted - 2013.02.22 21:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Roime wrote:I'm not reasoning against the module, I use it on many ships (Proteus, dual rep Myrm, neut Domi etc) and it's awesome, but it does not give the higher resists or lower cap life in the situations you described. Wake up, sleepy. The Reactive Armor Hardener does give higher resists. 60% is more than the 55% you get from a T2 hardener for a single damage type. And when you compare it with an omni damage pattern is its 15% still better than the 13.75% you get from a T2 hardener, but just not as good as an EANM II with 21%-25%. Maybe you failed to read the part where I said "random or omni damage pattern"? ... Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Google Voices
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
55
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Posted - 2013.02.22 22:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count. No wonder inflation is out of control. This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count.
Counting to two really isn't that big an accomplishment.....
"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that GÇ£one day Veritas will come up to me and say GÇÿhey I fixed off-grid boostingGÇÖGÇ¥, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle." |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
2412
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Posted - 2013.02.22 23:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vytoryn wrote:i believe i've found a problem in the Reactive Armor Hardner
WHAT?!??!!?! NO WAY!
The first problem you found was that you were using the Reactive Armor Hardener. The second problem is that you looked past the first problem. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1177
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Posted - 2013.02.22 23:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
I use it on a couple armor ships, and haven't noticed any issues. Bear in mind that I know how hard they are on ship's cap, and that's why I only use that module in SPECIFIC ship fits, and I don't use Hardeners (that's specifically armor hardeners) at all. Too hard on ship's cap for my tastes.
I kinda like the Reactive Armor module, but to use it long enough (Resistance training to L4 here on all my alts that fly armor ships) to matter really cuts into the needed cap on lazor ships. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." -á --- Sorlac |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
155
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Posted - 2013.02.23 02:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
The problem is that higher skills mean it costs MORE cap, but doesn't have any greater effect over time. So higher skills actually are BAD for the reactive hardener. Raise it's base cap a bit, make the cap use per cycle drop 10% per skill level. (Time is 5% I believe right?) Or..... If the module is not adapting, make it use no cap.
I suspect the first is easier than the second to do. And brings it back into a sensible range. |
Flycksie
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.02.23 09:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
I am thinking that skill "Armor Resistance Phasing" absolutely useless skill now, i trained it to 4 lvl and now understanding that i make mistake. So Why? In eve learning any skills give you bonuses and here example that is not true. At 0 lvl Armor Resistance Phasing this module works well, eat not much cap and his base duration(10sec) enough to counter NPC dmg. Why am talking about PVE, because this item absolutely useless in PVP, but this another theme. So. Here you can see i was stable without AB and LAR. [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img339/5963/0lvl.th.jpg[/IMG]
And now. [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img12/6491/39345079.th.jpg[/IMG] Yes it's duration now 6 sec, but this absolutely don't need. Better i will use one more Harderner... So i am asking dev make with this skill or module smth!
Why devs again eating my cap? And skill doesn't save it from me. |
Kestrix
Industrial Renaissance MinTek Conglomerate
88
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Posted - 2013.02.23 12:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Chribba wrote:If you believe it's a bug I would suggest filing a bugreport (bugs.eveonline.com) as simply posting it here won't get it fixed or looked at until a BR is filed.
Good job catching it if it's a bug (my math sucks so I'm not even trying to verify)
/c Oh great, the guy who everyone in eve will trust with their moneys admits he can't count. No wonder inflation is out of control. This is why The Mitanni is the only reasonable choice for a 3rd party. He can actually count.
Proof or STFU He's a goon and goon's and counting don't go together. |
Whitehound
944
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 12:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Flycksie wrote:I am thinking that skill "Armor Resistance Phasing" absolutely useless skill now, i trained it to 4 lvl and now understanding that i make mistake. So Why? In eve learning any skills give you bonuses and here example that is not true. At 0 lvl Armor Resistance Phasing this module works well, eat not much cap and his base duration(10sec) enough to counter NPC dmg. Why am talking about PVE, because this item absolutely useless in PVP, but this another theme. So. Here you can see i was stable without AB and LAR. [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img339/5963/0lvl.th.jpg[/IMG]And now. [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img12/6491/39345079.th.jpg[/IMG]Yes it's duration now 6 sec, but this absolutely don't need. Better i will use one more Harderner... So i am asking dev make with this skill or module smth! Why devs again eating my cap? And skill doesn't save it from me. EVE is not just PvE. In PvP do you have to work with higher amounts of damage and the faster the module responds to the damage the better it is. When fights only last 1-2 minutes does every second count. Nobody then switches their ammo and damage type around, at least not as fast as the module can adapt anyway.
In PvE is the Reactive Armor Hardener rather useless, because one knows the damage types in advance and can simply use the active hardeners. I do not think the cap usage is a problem at all.
Your ship in the second picture then has got cap for 25 minutes. Is this not enough for PvE?? Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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