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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
735
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 14:59:00 -
[91] - Quote
all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.
the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.
you can't fill a 250man fleet with less than 250 members but you don't need 3,000 members to do it. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
573
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:21:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
yaddah yaddah yaddah about some pilitical crap.....
....
People like the OP and "small alliances" are doing the same thing. Rather than those small alliances banding together to make big coalitions that can roflstop the Goons and Test or whoever , they want CCP to make up some artificial BS to give them an advantage.....
....Not understanding that any advantage that CCP tries to give will simply be exploited by the big boys. I suspect that why we don't see those "small holding" hidden player owned bases CCP used to talk about, because they know that rather than being some kind of access point for 0.0 solo players, it will just become another tool of control for the power blocks.
what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.
by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->
where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don-¦t belong there.
what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.
the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2937
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 00:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.
the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.
you can't fill a 200 man fleet with less than 200 members but you absolutely don't need 3,000 members to do it - and yet your average 3000 man strong 0.0 alliance would be delighted to see 200 pilots in a CTA fleet.
a motivated underdog could realistically achieve the same fleet size with an alliance the 3rd of that total size. Ev0ke regularly beat Goonswarm for 'Freeport Delve' despite being outnumbered on paper 20:1. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
437
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 00:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Shanara As wrote:hey there,
i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now. for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim on 0.0 space.
since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be-¦s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".
so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.
dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...
so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?
-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet. -try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death -join others
it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Man, i know where you are coming from. Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess. Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
Pretty much this.
If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 01:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:
what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.
by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->
where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don-¦t belong there.
This is where you're starting to be disingenuous. I underlined/bolded the important part. You think that the fact that small alliances/groups or whatever not being able to compete at the sov game in null sec is a "problem".
i've explained the only rational course of action for your "problem", but as can be seen by your snarky and defensive remarks, your not interested in that. You probably created this thread for the same reason most dissatisfied malcontented players do: you wanted confirmation that something you don't lik eis "bad", and when multiple people tell you to bascially HTFU (though no one has done so with the style and panash I displayed ), you don't like it (thus the defensiveness).
As i tell others who get butt hurt when the truth is posted, you have only your self to blame for it, If you can't stand people disagreeing vigorously with what you think (and it's obvious what you think by how you worded the OP), don't post ill-founded opinions on the internet.....
Quote: what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.
This is true, because the fact is, what you think opf as a "problem" isn't one. Power Blocks have always existed, and have always come and gone despite ill informed and paranoid people thinking that "omg one group will take over null sec"
It can't happen becuase game playing nerds are like Arabs and Scotsmen, they'd take over the world if they could stop fighting amongst each other long enough to be the outside enemy lol.
Quote: the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.
The overall question you asked is obviouls to any non-biased observer and anyone who knows anything about the history of EVE online and null sec. You "dared" ask a stupid question and got the appropriate response to such a brainless inquiry. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2929
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 01:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
Shanara As wrote: it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Wormhole space.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zol Interbottom
Nanotrasen Inc
158
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 07:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Shanara As wrote: it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Wormhole space. -Liang
yes but you cant hold all of the sov ever and slap your epeen around in a WH, you can only get all this incredibly defensible space that the major alliances cant take because they haven't learn the subtleties of NOT supercap blob Stupid forum posts become my MS-Paint art, send me some stupid posts if you see them |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3671
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 07:28:00 -
[98] - Quote
Of course sov space is an exclusive club. It's supposed to be that way. Don't like it? Fight, bargain, or pay your way into the club. Everyone else did. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
376
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 10:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.
This is hard to understand why?
Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention. What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.
Except big business more often than not will product the product for the cheapest amount possible, which leads to cutting corners and ending up with a sub-par product.
Where as, a small business, that focuses on quality and customer service. Will be able to **** all over almost any multinational company if managed properly. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
199
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 11:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:hey there,
(...random hi-sec puibbie mutterings...)
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Yes. Yes. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
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Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
573
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:20:00 -
[101] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Shanara As wrote:hey there,
(...random hi-sec puibbie mutterings...)
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Yes. Yes.
hehehe
uber -"me-so-leet" pvp null whatever hot shot... thx mate. really much insight. but hey you can use the quote-tags. well done.
anyways. flames aside. point is made by most and some very good points have been brought up. thx for taking part and sharing you vast knowledge "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
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Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
189
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Of course sov space is an exclusive club. It's supposed to be that way. Don't like it? Fight, bargain, or pay your way into the club. Everyone else did. Agree, also fighting out numbered is actually more fun than being in huge blob, get into a fleet of 20 or so bombers and no blob is safe even with carriers, so you can fight outnumbered and win, been done many times. -áVote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2961
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:47:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zol Interbottom wrote:Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner
Might be wrong about this, probably am Most of the CFC is "EVE Born", most of Goonswarm is "Eve-Born", the HBC is led by and filled by majority "EVE-born" players. Is there a third category for "Russia-born" as well, because those guys aren't going anywhere either. |
Bob Killan
Dzark Asylum
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:00:00 -
[104] - Quote
Interesting thread, but if i can derail slightly.
whether people agree or disagree there is one common theme here. power block control 0.0.
Take a step back and ask if this is good for the game rather than asking ifits right or wrong.
IMO its very bad for the game, if everyone is allied there is no war, if there is no war people make masses of isk, masses of isk make it nigh on impossible for another block to compete unless they can secure the same levels of isk which wont happen if one block "owns" all the major alliance isk gathering resources.
So there is a problem. And the agreement with the OP question about a small corp staking a claim in 0.0 is hitting close to the spot.
Eve Online would be mch healthier with 400 small corp battling for teh most lucrative areas of 0.0 that 1 super block that owns everything.
This is supposed to be Eve a cold dark place, a fully blue 0.0 doesn't fit into this one bit.
I think there should be many more routes to everywhere in 0.0. So if you want to claim a region you dont need to cover 2 entry point but you need to cover 25 for instance. making it hard for bigger corps to control masses of space but easier for them to control their area of space. If they live in a area of a size they have the support to control. Ths small corps could then in claim a smal system here and there and the big boy may not be too bothered as it would "cost" the too much to claim and defend that system.
There needs to be more ways for small guys to be sucessful (I dont mean punish the big guys for being big, just make it less rewarding for them to hold all. If taking the system generates 1 bil is a day but would cost (in ships, support, time and logistics) 2 bill to hold they just wouldn't bother. (isk figure used to make a point i dont actually mean it would physically cost that in ISK, more a way of quantifing the effort needed to hold it, hopefully that makes sense lol)
More corp = more wars = more fun = healthier Eve
Double the amount of 0.0 space, triple of quadruple it not sure how possible it would be from a hardware point of view but would give more options to the little guys. And the big guys do need the little guys if only for target practise.
Make a mechanic that requires many small groups working together to gain sov but at different locations, so we have a battle thats 10 skirmishes of 100 ships a side rather than a BLOB of 1000 smart bombs. sorry not many ideas on this one but there must be some ways. possible needing to remove the owning corps flag whilst placing yours on every planet in the system, the small guys could attack another small guy 1 planet at a time. A bigger corp could assault a power block similationously across many systems requiring the BLOB to split or lose valuable space until they can retake it.
Anyhow just a few mussing, but something needs to change to make 0.0 more dynamic with more WAR!!
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
249
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Bob Killan wrote:Interesting thread, but if i can derail slightly.
whether people agree or disagree there is one common theme here. power block control 0.0.
Take a step back and ask if this is good for the game rather than asking ifits right or wrong.
IMO its very bad for the game, if everyone is allied there is no war, if there is no war people make masses of isk, masses of isk make it nigh on impossible for another block to compete unless they can secure the same levels of isk which wont happen if one block "owns" all the major alliance isk gathering resources.
So there is a problem. And the agreement with the OP question about a small corp staking a claim in 0.0 is hitting close to the spot.
Eve Online would be mch healthier with 400 small corp battling for teh most lucrative areas of 0.0 that 1 super block that owns everything.
This is supposed to be Eve a cold dark place, a fully blue 0.0 doesn't fit into this one bit.
I think there should be many more routes to everywhere in 0.0. So if you want to claim a region you dont need to cover 2 entry point but you need to cover 25 for instance. making it hard for bigger corps to control masses of space but easier for them to control their area of space. If they live in a area of a size they have the support to control. Ths small corps could then in claim a smal system here and there and the big boy may not be too bothered as it would "cost" the too much to claim and defend that system.
There needs to be more ways for small guys to be sucessful (I dont mean punish the big guys for being big, just make it less rewarding for them to hold all. If taking the system generates 1 bil is a day but would cost (in ships, support, time and logistics) 2 bill to hold they just wouldn't bother. (isk figure used to make a point i dont actually mean it would physically cost that in ISK, more a way of quantifing the effort needed to hold it, hopefully that makes sense lol)
More corp = more wars = more fun = healthier Eve
Double the amount of 0.0 space, triple of quadruple it not sure how possible it would be from a hardware point of view but would give more options to the little guys. And the big guys do need the little guys if only for target practise.
Make a mechanic that requires many small groups working together to gain sov but at different locations, so we have a battle thats 10 skirmishes of 100 ships a side rather than a BLOB of 1000 smart bombs. sorry not many ideas on this one but there must be some ways. possible needing to remove the owning corps flag whilst placing yours on every planet in the system, the small guys could attack another small guy 1 planet at a time. A bigger corp could assault a power block similationously across many systems requiring the BLOB to split or lose valuable space until they can retake it.
Anyhow just a few mussing, but something needs to change to make 0.0 more dynamic with more WAR!!
As it was explained to me, it already is like that, but unfortunately with the "alliance" and coalition features of Eve's metagaming of politics and people having sandy vag's and pussyfootin around is what created the big blue that you see today.
Not a mechanic unfortunately.
So it ends up being a social problem of the players =(.
They'd rather more isk than "healthy eve". "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
Your OP is spot on, but only in that it is a hugely difficult task to compete with huge alliances with huge amounts of resources and manpower. What would you like anyone to do about that though? It SHOULD be hard to compete at this level, but just because you can't doesn't mean that is a big limitation. |
Christopher Caldaris
Caldaris Enterprises LLC
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
You're about 10 years too late.
These players went in when there was nobody and had the time to bank skillpoints and resources.
No new entities will hold sov in 0.0, it's impossible to compete against the sheer volume of wealth and resources these groups have.
It's a lost cause, just forget about it. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2965
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
All the big empires from 10 years ago still dominate today CVA, Foundati0n, Stain Alliance, Curse Alliance, Xetic Federation... can anyone stand up to them?
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:14:00 -
[109] - Quote
about three years ago goonswarm was so penniless that we were literally funding the entire alliance off ratting taxes, reimbursements were basically a token payment and we were living in syndicate without even a single moon |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:33:00 -
[110] - Quote
[Luke:] I canGÇÖt believe it. [Yoda:] That is why you fail. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
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Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
940
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:36:00 -
[111] - Quote
Your opponents are too big for you to take on? Can field fleets bigger than you?
Why don't you recruit more people so you can challenge them on equal footing, or use guerilla tactics to annoy them enough that you start to make headway?
You know, 10 people is enough to RF a POS. Every time you shoot a POS everyone in the owning alliance with POS roles gets an email. Take 100 people, find 100 poses, and everyone start shooting for 5 minutes, then safe up and and go afk.
Wait for their scout who checks it out to leave, wait 20 minutes(so he can get a fair distance away) come out and plink the pos again.
Eventually they will stop checking on the false alarms. Thats when you bring some friends and RF it. Do this to as many high end moons as you have people to do it with at once.
Let the pos come out of RF, and they rep it, and begin the cycle anew.
If you play smart and never try to go head to head with them, they will eventually have to do something about it. Their POS managers will be screaming bloody murder, their grunts will be too bored to show up since there will never be a fight, and you will be impacting their income by a significant degree if you do it right.
This may take a few months before it reaches the breaking point, but a small entity with the smarts, dedication, and patience can bend a large entity to their will. You just have to understand how to break their morale, and be willing to engage is some mind-numbingly tedious work(just like they did to get this stuff in the first place).
You can use this to either force your way in, or just get a nice payout so that you will go away and leave them alone.
Either way, a relatively small entity can certainly hold a coalition hostage by hitting them where it really hurts. The moral of the people who make the isk for them.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Your opponents are too big for you to take on? Can field fleets bigger than you?
Why don't you recruit more people so you can challenge them on equal footing, or use guerilla tactics to annoy them enough that you start to make headway?
You know, 10 people is enough to RF a POS. Every time you shoot a POS everyone in the owning alliance with POS roles gets an email. Take 100 people, find 100 poses, and everyone start shooting for 5 minutes, then safe up and and go afk.
Wait for their scout who checks it out to leave, wait 20 minutes(so he can get a fair distance away) come out and plink the pos again.
Eventually they will stop checking on the false alarms. Thats when you bring some friends and RF it. Do this to as many high end moons as you have people to do it with at once.
Let the pos come out of RF, and they rep it, and begin the cycle anew.
If you play smart and never try to go head to head with them, they will eventually have to do something about it. Their POS managers will be screaming bloody murder, their grunts will be too bored to show up since there will never be a fight, and you will be impacting their income by a significant degree if you do it right.
This may take a few months before it reaches the breaking point, but a small entity with the smarts, dedication, and patience can bend a large entity to their will. You just have to understand how to break their morale, and be willing to engage is some mind-numbingly tedious work(just like they did to get this stuff in the first place).
You can use this to either force your way in, or just get a nice payout so that you will go away and leave them alone.
Either way, a relatively small entity can certainly hold a coalition hostage by hitting them where it really hurts. The moral of the people who make the isk for them.
All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:40:00 -
[113] - Quote
Christopher Caldaris wrote:You're about 10 years too late.
These players went in when there was nobody and had the time to bank skillpoints and resources.
No new entities will hold sov in 0.0, it's impossible to compete against the sheer volume of wealth and resources these groups have.
It's a lost cause, just forget about it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:All the big empires from 10 years ago still dominate today CVA, Foundati0n, Stain Alliance, Curse Alliance, Xetic Federation... can anyone stand up to them?
It's the end, CVA is gonna end us. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
940
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:03:00 -
[114] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS
Right, just like the guys who currently own the tower had to do.
Besides, people are whining about how they can do nothing? I just gave them a way to do something. I did point out that it is tedious and requires a high level of dedication, but that is the barrier of entry to nullsec no matter how you look at it if you don't want to join a coalition.
Edit: and Batphone might be handy, if the aggressor is smart enough to have one Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3374
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS
Right, just like the guys who currently own the tower had to do. Besides, people are whining about how they can do nothing? I just gave them a way to do something. I did point out that it is tedious and requires a high level of dedication, but that is the barrier of entry to nullsec no matter how you look at it if you don't want to join a coalition. Edit: and Batphone might be handy, if the aggressor is smart enough to have one Exactly. The small group harassing the bigger one has a powerful batphone. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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