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Feffri
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
29
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Posted - 2013.05.04 19:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:a 300k costing T1 frigate. Are you really going to be flying around with a basic T1 fit and expecting to win against anything other than equally cheap ships? Because if you're fitting more than basic T1 your "cheap" frigate suddenly gets a lot closer to AF price levels.
You obviously haven't heard of the gallentes 1mil isk (total) fit atron that they use by the hundreds. That 1mil frigate pretty much defeated and chased evoke out of cal mil space. Afs have a niche but you wont sling shot a good pilot in say a condor.. and yes a standard "cheap fit condor would take down an af they go 4km's with superior agility. Oonly an inexperience pilot would get caught by a slingshot.. unless you are saying that the af has a loki boost where it's web can go to 19 then it might have a chance but then to be fair you have to say the condor has a loki boost and is pointing you out to 36-42 ol'd. Which in that case you'd have 0 chance of sling shot. condor could just hit orbit at 30.
I kind of feel afs need a lil boost or at least need to be looked at on a case by case basis. A few tweaks here and there would bring them back i think. For instance in fw why would i fly an enyo or ishkur when i can get more dps and almost equal tank from say an algos (at half the price) only af advantage is lil more speed and lower sig once mwd is off.
Like to hear what some af lovers think cause they were fun when they were boosted but now that there are new destroyers all frigs and crusiers have been upgraded the af's don't have much appeal. I mean the t1 attack cruisers are as fast or faster then afs that seems like a disconnect to me. But perhaps it's as intended. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2383
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 21:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
valscorn wrote:Ty all for the feedback anyone have a good time with the jag or should I go with arty wolf then?
Go with the arty-fit Wolf. I've seen it insta-pop most T1 frigates at range. Just be careful not to let anyone get too close. Have close range support nearby just in case. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
74
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Posted - 2013.05.05 17:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:A few days ago I beat a Merlin, Ishkur and Comet at the same site in my Enyo.
I absolutely LOVE my Enyo on my PvP toon. Most people seriously underestimate how much sheer R*pe it can lay down while staying very mobile and decently tanky. I even have a lol PvE fit for it that does almost 600 DPS (heat) while tanking up to 160 dps (Guristas or Serpentis) and STILL remaining under 90mil including the ship. I get a lot of funny comments from player who think I'm gonna die in a fire to a dozen+ NPCs at once, that is until they see me melting Battleships in an AF lol. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption Darkspawn.
63
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Posted - 2013.05.05 18:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Assault frigs are awesome. Every single one has great attributes and are extremely viable versus most ships, either solo or in a gang.
I also laugh at people saying assault frigs are pricey. If anything, they are entry level ships to a huge advantage over the t1 versions. How do you counter kiters? You get a faction web and overheat that ***** to 18km. Nasty surprise for that kiting condor when you close to 11.5 km and scram his ass then blow him up with a few rockets at 8.5km launched fromt he high resist tanked Vengeance of the glorious Khanid Kingdom.
Thats right....The Vengeance is boss. **** you. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 02:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
I wouldn't say the jag sucks...but fwiw my best ship in PvP is, and always has been, the fire tail.
Kiting jags don't really work. Where the jag shines is that its a brawler that is much faster than other brawlers. It in many ways feels more gallente than minmatar. You can win a good number of fights, but you have to choose carefully and understand its limitations.
Wolf is kind of awesome ATM, although its low agility makes it vulnerable to slingshotting.
Don't try the artillery sold outside of fleets. Use auto wolf with tracking enhancers instead. Comparable damage below 24km with better tracking, easier fitting, and if you **** up and they close you still might win due to good tracking and the extra damage you did by kiting before they closed.
And to the guy who said wolf/jag should trade optimal falloff bonuses, they should just change them both to falloff or give one of them something new. Optimal bonuses on minmatar weapons are generally ****. At most PvP engagement scales falloff is better for artillery, and falloff is definitely better for autos. They need to abandon the optimal bonus on Minnie ships. Seriously, if there's even one viable fitting that benefits from the optimal somebody tell me, cause I'd love to be proven wrong here. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1196
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 05:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
There are only three Minmatar ships that have an optimal bonus: the Muninn, Thrasher, and Jaguar.
The Thrasher is the most successful of these ships. Here is your fit:
High: 280mm II x 7 Mid: MWD TC II with optimal script SB II Low: Gyro II x 2 Rigs: ACR x 2 Projectile Collision
RF EMP - 12.9km + 14.2km - 1947 alpha RF Titanium Sabot - 25.9km + 14.2km - 1298 alpha RF Proton - 41.4km + 14.2km - 811 alpha
Now let's pretend it had a falloff bonus instead of an optimal RF EMP - 8.6km + 21.3km RF TS - 17.3km + 21.3km RF P - 27.6km + 21.3km
The optimal bonus is superior with the longer range ammo. The short range is pretty close. The one big thing about an optimal bonus IS it's limitations. The AC Thrasher has alot of trouble projecting damage past 7km. I could make a strong argument that an AC Thrasher with a falloff bonus would be OP. That clearly isn't the case with an AC Jag. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
168
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Posted - 2013.05.06 07:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
True, but what is the typical engagement range of a thrasher? Its great at longer ranges but most fights sit around 16-30km for arti ships of that size. Falloff bonuses are, for all intents and purposes, identical at those ranges. There's some minor differences but its fairly negligible. My issue with optimal is for most PvP setups it is equivalent to falloff, or in the case of autos, strictly inferior.
The reason the thrasher is so good is because of the strength of small projectiles and its bonuses. If you removed the optimal, autocannon thrashers would still kick ass but arti would die off. If you switch to a falloff bonus then arti is equivalent and autos are op. Its just an annoying bonus because on every ship other than the thrasher(which gets that bonus for free), it is extremely limiting.
Jaguars were good because of their slot layout and resist profile, not their bonuses. And when was the last time anybody saw a muninn?
Honestly we agree on most points. I guess it comes down to preference really, but I think the bonus is UP and don't care for it. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
965
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:AF for the most part are great. People will pour isk into fancy implants and deadspace gear to get a little extra advantage. A thirty million isk ship is not really a giant leap for most veterans. Having said that, you still have to exercise common sense. I have a Ishkur fit I run as a 'super Tristan'. 75mm rails. AB, web and scram. 400mm plate, EANM, DC.... It's a scram range Kiter with >15k EHP. If I see a condor on short scan though, I'll dock up. The 75mm rails don't have the needed range on them - especially if TD'd and the drones won't keep pace. I will come back in a 125mm rail Enyo with a variety of ammo though. I have a very minor whish list for further AF balancing. The Ishkur having a bonus to possess 10 drones while the Tristan has 8 naturally is meh. The Harpy should have it's damage bonus as a frigate bonus and not an AF bonus. The Wolf and Jaguar should really trade optimal and falloff bonuses. Just some thoughts...
Still on that kick.
Stop it.
The Wolf cannot control range inside web/scram range. The Jaguar can.
The Jag's opt bonus sucks, yes, but STOP trying to break the wolf to fix it? Jesus. An Opt bonus on the wolf sucks JUST as much as it does on the jaguar. "Oh the Artillery wolf though!" which is bad.
If CCP start assigning ship roles and bonuses around any fit which requires 3 fitting mods, dies if farted on, dies to anything with drones or any sort of gun range of its own, dies if scrammed, dies if looked at in a negative fashion, and is just generally one trick ponyish and bad, it is not a sign the game is going in good directions.
Yes, the Jaguar sucks. However, the wolf needs its falloff bonus. Otherwise, it will be as ****** as the jaguar, but, you know, with worse tank, speed, and flexibility? "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
965
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:There are only three Minmatar ships that have an optimal bonus: the Muninn, Thrasher, and Jaguar.
The Thrasher is the most successful of these ships. Here is your fit:
High: 280mm II x 7 Mid: MWD TC II with optimal script SB II Low: Gyro II x 2 Rigs: ACR x 2 Projectile Collision
RF EMP - 12.9km + 14.2km - 1947 alpha RF Titanium Sabot - 25.9km + 14.2km - 1298 alpha RF Proton - 41.4km + 14.2km - 811 alpha
Now let's pretend it had a falloff bonus instead of an optimal RF EMP - 8.6km + 21.3km RF TS - 17.3km + 21.3km RF P - 27.6km + 21.3km
The optimal bonus is superior with the longer range ammo. The short range is pretty close. The one big thing about an optimal bonus IS it's limitations. The AC Thrasher has alot of trouble projecting damage past 7km. I could make a strong argument that an AC Thrasher with a falloff bonus would be OP. That clearly isn't the case with an AC Jag.
Yes.
And a wolf with an opt bonus is trash.
Dual TE wolf is better than the arty wolf in every way, save damage projection beyond about 20k... say, that's about where point range ends, isnt it? "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 08:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kind of makes you wonder...what kind of bonus fits the jag anyways? A rep bonus? Cause a range bonus really doesn't. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
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