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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
57
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you.
0/10 troll |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:0/10 troll
Compelling argument, my friend. But by reducing the ability to move finished goods to nullsec it will force production to be shifted from Empire to nullsec. This will boost regional industry and lead to more dynamic game play.
Instead of just recruiting "elite Jump Freighter" pilots alliances will be forced to get a broad spectrum of players encouraging growth in their space. |
Martinez
T-Cells Moar Tears
1
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed JF would die alot more often. |
Djakku
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
EVE is dead. |
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
155
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Navigator - Lead Community Representative |
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Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
88
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Posted - 2011.10.11 17:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
No, JFs are the perfect thing for a budding new alliance
They allow a small alliance to get goods from high sec to and around in low and null without needing a titan or a full scale JB network.
Larger alliance would rather just use a normal freighter (which can carry more) with a titan or JB network... The Drake is a Lie |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 17:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:No, JFs are the perfect thing for a budding new alliance
They allow a small alliance to get goods from high sec to and around in low and null without needing a titan or a full scale JB network.
Larger alliance would rather just use a normal freighter (which can carry more) with a titan or JB network...
Except you can't move Sov structures with Jump Freighters. |
Mik kyo
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 18:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Centra has a point,
Also jump freighters have to be one of the biggest 'killers' of lowsec. Without them people were forced to travel the pipes with there goods and ships, and freighters needed to be escorted and defended. |
Guillame Herschel
NME1
6
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Posted - 2011.10.11 23:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Martinez wrote:If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed incredibly stupid JF would die alot more often.
FYP.
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Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
186
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Posted - 2011.10.11 23:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hmmm....
JFs are overpowered because "They do not usually have a support fleet".
0/10 [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img] |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
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Posted - 2011.10.12 14:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agreed, JFs are absolutely overpowered. They are essentially the super cap of industrials, so being a super cap, they should require sov and a CSAA to build, and they should be unable to dock and enter high sec/use gates. This will mean that they will require a support industrial fleet to load and unload them (prevent them from scooping up and dropping off cargo on their own completely, requiring the support haulers to drop items from its own cargo into the JF and vice versa in order to load them. This should make them balanced. |
Jiska Ensa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.10.12 15:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actually I think if anything JF's are underpowered.
Consider this: The large power-bloc's of eve DO regularly escort convoy's of freighters through low-sec to their jump bridge networks. They do it with a massive escort fleet, which no pirate can hope to match (unless you have a blob of titans I suppose)
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances. How do you get stuff to your home if you can't afford a titan? If you nerf jump freighters you'd better buff the Rorqual.
Now, to reiterate what I've said many a time before:
Jump freighters have 1/3rd the cargohold of a normal freighter. They have NO offensive weaponary, they have NO tank beyond their own massive EHP, a single warp disruptor will prevent them from jumping (see supercapitals which require a HIC to lock down), they're slow, cumbersome, and cost 5 billion isk. They can't scoop from wrecks or cans, or other ship's corporate hangers. Their ONLY usefulness is in that they can jump and go through stargates. That's it. And despite their near invulnerability thanks to cyno mechanics and session changes, people do still lose them quite regularly. It's easy to screw it up, and in null-sec they have bubbles to contend with as well.
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
The one concession I would consider fair would be removing the ability to carry fitted ships. Which they can barely do thanks to their small cargohold anyway. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
31
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Posted - 2011.10.12 15:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Martinez wrote:If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed JF would die alot more often.
This is a good point. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
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Posted - 2011.10.12 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sooooo...Let's make sure I've understood this correctly:
1) It's a big, floating box with a jump-drive gacked into it. 2) No defensive capability beyond it's raw EHP. At all. 3) Can be tackled by a noobship with a point in the mid-slot. No local defense against this. At all. 4) It has ca. 1/3 the cargo-capacity of the big floating Tech I box it's derived from. And costs 10-15 times more. 5) No offensive capability. At all. 6) No way to modify/increase its' capabilities/functionality. At all. 7) There is no (7): It rage-quit because its' RMT-financed IWIN button is getting nerfed (see what I did there, nullbear?).
Clearly, massively overpowered! TO THE FOR--oh, hey, waitaminnit...
JFs work exactly as intended, as far as I can see:
An small(-ish) capacity Alliance-level logistical asset for small-to-midsized Alliances that can afford (I should hope) the risks that using it entails, and that said small group can mitigate if they co-ordinate as a team to help it move safely and efficiently.
Just because you NAP-festers are too big, clumsy, and tactically dysfunctional to effectively gank them is no reason to nerf them.
And yes, I want a Nomad. Not because I'm a hauler/trader/1337 carebear pilot, but because they're just freakin' cool |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
478
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Posted - 2011.10.12 15:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
...funnily enough, nullsec logistics is being looked into, and so far, th JFs aren't high on the list. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
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Posted - 2011.10.12 16:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any interest in this happening. Could he. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable!
Jiska Ensa wrote:
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
[...]
And, ^^ this ^^. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
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Posted - 2011.10.12 16:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:...funnily enough, nullsec logistics is being looked into, and so far, th JFs aren't high on the list.
Because they're working exactly as they should be.
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
13
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Posted - 2011.10.12 17:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Consider this: The large power-bloc's of eve DO regularly escort convoy's of freighters through low-sec to their jump bridge networks. They do it with a massive escort fleet, which no pirate can hope to match (unless you have a blob of titans I suppose)
The are moving a massive amount of stuff with a massive amount of effort. This is fine.
Quote: Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances. How do you get stuff to your home if you can't afford a titan? If you nerf jump freighters you'd better buff the Rorqual.
Unfortunately, this is the game we play, everything scales disproportionately. What is good for your tiny alliance or corp works just as well if not better for a massive alliance or coalition.
Quote: Now, to reiterate what I've said many a time before:
Jump freighters have 1/3rd the cargohold of a normal freighter. They have NO offensive weaponary, they have NO tank beyond their own massive EHP, a single warp disruptor will prevent them from jumping (see supercapitals which require a HIC to lock down), they're slow, cumbersome, and cost 5 billion isk. They can't scoop from wrecks or cans, or other ship's corporate hangers. Their ONLY usefulness is in that they can jump and go through stargates. That's it. And despite their near invulnerability thanks to cyno mechanics and session changes, people do still lose them quite regularly. It's easy to screw it up, and in null-sec they have bubbles to contend with as well.
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
So they are perfectly fine and nigh invulnerable, but people still lose them when they are dumb? You sound like a super capital pilot arguing against a nerf.
Quote: The one concession I would consider fair would be removing the ability to carry fitted ships. Which they can barely do thanks to their small cargohold anyway.
If all they could carry was minerals and fuel, I would be happy, it would force alliances to move finished goods under escort and encourage them to build in their home region, boosting regional economy. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
13
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Posted - 2011.10.12 17:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Sooooo...Let's make sure I've understood this correctly: 1) It's a big, floating box with a jump-drive gacked into it. 2) No defensive capability beyond it's raw EHP. At all. 3) Can be tackled by a noobship with a point in the mid-slot. No local defense against this. At all. 4) It has ca. 1/3 the cargo-capacity of the big floating Tech I box it's derived from. And costs 10-15 times more. 5) No offensive capability. At all. 6) No way to modify/increase its' capabilities/functionality. At all. 7) There is no (7): It rage-quit because its' RMT-financed IWIN button is getting nerfed (see what I did there, nullbear?). Clearly, massively overpowered! TO THE FOR--oh, hey, waitaminnit... JFs work exactly as intended, as far as I can see: An small(-ish) capacity Alliance-level logistical asset for small-to-midsized Alliances that can afford (I should hope) the risks that using it entails, and that said small group can mitigate if they co-ordinate as a team to help it move safely and efficiently. Just because you NAP-festers are too big, clumsy, and tactically dysfunctional to effectively gank them is no reason to nerf them. And yes, I want a Nomad. Not because I'm a hauler/trader/1337 carebear pilot, but because they're just freakin' cool
I guess you aren't missing the key issue. The Jump Freighter allows a single pilot to move finished goods directly from empire to where ever he wants in almost 100% safety. There is no other ship IN THIS GAME that allows someone to move so much stuff with so much ease. But let me address your 'points'.
1) Yes, it's a big ship with a jump drive. I don't know why you brought this up, but OK. 2) It's defensive capabilities are: jumping from empire, jumping within dock range of a station, and jumping out while in session change. Please tell me which of these instances I can kill it. 3) OK, it can be tackled, but that assumes it will be in a situation where it can be tackled in the first place. 4) Well, they had to make room for the MASSIVE jump drive. My Titan won't even have room for drones. And costing a lot doesn't mean it should be invulnerable, right? 5) The JF's offensive inability is not the issue, if you think it is, you either misread or have been misled. 6) What? OK, you can't fit things to it, again, why did you bring this up? 7) This poorly written statement is - I think - some type of insult at me, are you saying I paid real money for my Avatar and Aeon? Because I didn't, but OK, this is a really valid point against nerfing JFs. Well played, sir.
And the rest of your post is also some sort of insult about me and my Alliance. |
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
14
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Posted - 2011.10.12 17:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any ulterior interest in this happening. Nor yet could the entrenched positions of Alliances of...well, not-so-small...size possibly benefit directly even more after the winter expansion and its' Super-capital nerfs... Could he/could they. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable! Any such derived benefit would be pure coincidence, and to imply otherwise is pure, vicious slander! Slander, I say! [/sarcasm]
Since you have no criticism of my actual points and are just trying to troll me, please refrain from posting again. If you would like to discuss the issue at hand, then you are welcome to contribute in this conversation. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
471
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Posted - 2011.10.12 20:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them. The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
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Posted - 2011.10.12 23:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them.
I'm glad you are contributing to my thread goonNOOB. |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
195
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Posted - 2011.10.13 00:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Honestly.
Centra, you have to ask yourself this....
What would Awox do? [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img] |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
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Posted - 2011.10.13 00:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Eat a pounder. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2011.10.13 01:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
I remember a time when PL put thought and effort into their trolling threads. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
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Posted - 2011.10.13 02:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them.
I actually +1'ed a Ladie Harlot/Scarlett post....(Sigh)...What is this world coming to, eh?
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
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Posted - 2011.10.13 02:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them. I'm glad you are contributing to my thread goonNOOB.
Why, because this is true?
I can haz ur stuffs? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
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Posted - 2011.10.13 02:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any ulterior interest in this happening. Nor yet could the entrenched positions of Alliances of...well, not-so-small...size possibly benefit directly even more after the winter expansion and its' Super-capital nerfs... Could he/could they. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable! Any such derived benefit would be pure coincidence, and to imply otherwise is pure, vicious slander! Slander, I say! [/sarcasm] Since you have no criticism of my actual points and are just trying to troll me, please refrain from posting again. .
NO U
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
17
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Posted - 2011.10.13 02:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
More posts not addressing the issue, thank you for your attention, though. If we are going to get things fixed, we need this kind of publicity. |
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