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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 16:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you.
0/10 troll |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:0/10 troll
Compelling argument, my friend. But by reducing the ability to move finished goods to nullsec it will force production to be shifted from Empire to nullsec. This will boost regional industry and lead to more dynamic game play.
Instead of just recruiting "elite Jump Freighter" pilots alliances will be forced to get a broad spectrum of players encouraging growth in their space. |
Martinez
T-Cells Moar Tears
1
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed JF would die alot more often. |
Djakku
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
EVE is dead. |
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
155
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Navigator - Lead Community Representative |
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Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
88
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 17:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
No, JFs are the perfect thing for a budding new alliance
They allow a small alliance to get goods from high sec to and around in low and null without needing a titan or a full scale JB network.
Larger alliance would rather just use a normal freighter (which can carry more) with a titan or JB network... The Drake is a Lie |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
9
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Posted - 2011.10.11 17:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:No, JFs are the perfect thing for a budding new alliance
They allow a small alliance to get goods from high sec to and around in low and null without needing a titan or a full scale JB network.
Larger alliance would rather just use a normal freighter (which can carry more) with a titan or JB network...
Except you can't move Sov structures with Jump Freighters. |
Mik kyo
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 18:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Centra has a point,
Also jump freighters have to be one of the biggest 'killers' of lowsec. Without them people were forced to travel the pipes with there goods and ships, and freighters needed to be escorted and defended. |
Guillame Herschel
NME1
6
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Posted - 2011.10.11 23:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Martinez wrote:If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed incredibly stupid JF would die alot more often.
FYP.
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Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
186
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Posted - 2011.10.11 23:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hmmm....
JFs are overpowered because "They do not usually have a support fleet".
0/10 [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img] |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 14:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agreed, JFs are absolutely overpowered. They are essentially the super cap of industrials, so being a super cap, they should require sov and a CSAA to build, and they should be unable to dock and enter high sec/use gates. This will mean that they will require a support industrial fleet to load and unload them (prevent them from scooping up and dropping off cargo on their own completely, requiring the support haulers to drop items from its own cargo into the JF and vice versa in order to load them. This should make them balanced. |
Jiska Ensa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.10.12 15:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actually I think if anything JF's are underpowered.
Consider this: The large power-bloc's of eve DO regularly escort convoy's of freighters through low-sec to their jump bridge networks. They do it with a massive escort fleet, which no pirate can hope to match (unless you have a blob of titans I suppose)
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances. How do you get stuff to your home if you can't afford a titan? If you nerf jump freighters you'd better buff the Rorqual.
Now, to reiterate what I've said many a time before:
Jump freighters have 1/3rd the cargohold of a normal freighter. They have NO offensive weaponary, they have NO tank beyond their own massive EHP, a single warp disruptor will prevent them from jumping (see supercapitals which require a HIC to lock down), they're slow, cumbersome, and cost 5 billion isk. They can't scoop from wrecks or cans, or other ship's corporate hangers. Their ONLY usefulness is in that they can jump and go through stargates. That's it. And despite their near invulnerability thanks to cyno mechanics and session changes, people do still lose them quite regularly. It's easy to screw it up, and in null-sec they have bubbles to contend with as well.
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
The one concession I would consider fair would be removing the ability to carry fitted ships. Which they can barely do thanks to their small cargohold anyway. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Martinez wrote:If logging off after jump though a gate to save your ship was removed JF would die alot more often.
This is a good point. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sooooo...Let's make sure I've understood this correctly:
1) It's a big, floating box with a jump-drive gacked into it. 2) No defensive capability beyond it's raw EHP. At all. 3) Can be tackled by a noobship with a point in the mid-slot. No local defense against this. At all. 4) It has ca. 1/3 the cargo-capacity of the big floating Tech I box it's derived from. And costs 10-15 times more. 5) No offensive capability. At all. 6) No way to modify/increase its' capabilities/functionality. At all. 7) There is no (7): It rage-quit because its' RMT-financed IWIN button is getting nerfed (see what I did there, nullbear?).
Clearly, massively overpowered! TO THE FOR--oh, hey, waitaminnit...
JFs work exactly as intended, as far as I can see:
An small(-ish) capacity Alliance-level logistical asset for small-to-midsized Alliances that can afford (I should hope) the risks that using it entails, and that said small group can mitigate if they co-ordinate as a team to help it move safely and efficiently.
Just because you NAP-festers are too big, clumsy, and tactically dysfunctional to effectively gank them is no reason to nerf them.
And yes, I want a Nomad. Not because I'm a hauler/trader/1337 carebear pilot, but because they're just freakin' cool |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
478
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 15:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
...funnily enough, nullsec logistics is being looked into, and so far, th JFs aren't high on the list. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 16:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any interest in this happening. Could he. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable!
Jiska Ensa wrote:
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
[...]
And, ^^ this ^^. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 16:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:...funnily enough, nullsec logistics is being looked into, and so far, th JFs aren't high on the list.
Because they're working exactly as they should be.
|
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
13
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Posted - 2011.10.12 17:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Consider this: The large power-bloc's of eve DO regularly escort convoy's of freighters through low-sec to their jump bridge networks. They do it with a massive escort fleet, which no pirate can hope to match (unless you have a blob of titans I suppose)
The are moving a massive amount of stuff with a massive amount of effort. This is fine.
Quote: Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances. How do you get stuff to your home if you can't afford a titan? If you nerf jump freighters you'd better buff the Rorqual.
Unfortunately, this is the game we play, everything scales disproportionately. What is good for your tiny alliance or corp works just as well if not better for a massive alliance or coalition.
Quote: Now, to reiterate what I've said many a time before:
Jump freighters have 1/3rd the cargohold of a normal freighter. They have NO offensive weaponary, they have NO tank beyond their own massive EHP, a single warp disruptor will prevent them from jumping (see supercapitals which require a HIC to lock down), they're slow, cumbersome, and cost 5 billion isk. They can't scoop from wrecks or cans, or other ship's corporate hangers. Their ONLY usefulness is in that they can jump and go through stargates. That's it. And despite their near invulnerability thanks to cyno mechanics and session changes, people do still lose them quite regularly. It's easy to screw it up, and in null-sec they have bubbles to contend with as well.
You want to be able to kill a defenceless ship with impunity? Go gank hulks in high-sec. OP sounds butt-hurt about losing his super blob this winter. Yes, I went there.
So they are perfectly fine and nigh invulnerable, but people still lose them when they are dumb? You sound like a super capital pilot arguing against a nerf.
Quote: The one concession I would consider fair would be removing the ability to carry fitted ships. Which they can barely do thanks to their small cargohold anyway.
If all they could carry was minerals and fuel, I would be happy, it would force alliances to move finished goods under escort and encourage them to build in their home region, boosting regional economy. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 17:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Sooooo...Let's make sure I've understood this correctly: 1) It's a big, floating box with a jump-drive gacked into it. 2) No defensive capability beyond it's raw EHP. At all. 3) Can be tackled by a noobship with a point in the mid-slot. No local defense against this. At all. 4) It has ca. 1/3 the cargo-capacity of the big floating Tech I box it's derived from. And costs 10-15 times more. 5) No offensive capability. At all. 6) No way to modify/increase its' capabilities/functionality. At all. 7) There is no (7): It rage-quit because its' RMT-financed IWIN button is getting nerfed (see what I did there, nullbear?). Clearly, massively overpowered! TO THE FOR--oh, hey, waitaminnit... JFs work exactly as intended, as far as I can see: An small(-ish) capacity Alliance-level logistical asset for small-to-midsized Alliances that can afford (I should hope) the risks that using it entails, and that said small group can mitigate if they co-ordinate as a team to help it move safely and efficiently. Just because you NAP-festers are too big, clumsy, and tactically dysfunctional to effectively gank them is no reason to nerf them. And yes, I want a Nomad. Not because I'm a hauler/trader/1337 carebear pilot, but because they're just freakin' cool
I guess you aren't missing the key issue. The Jump Freighter allows a single pilot to move finished goods directly from empire to where ever he wants in almost 100% safety. There is no other ship IN THIS GAME that allows someone to move so much stuff with so much ease. But let me address your 'points'.
1) Yes, it's a big ship with a jump drive. I don't know why you brought this up, but OK. 2) It's defensive capabilities are: jumping from empire, jumping within dock range of a station, and jumping out while in session change. Please tell me which of these instances I can kill it. 3) OK, it can be tackled, but that assumes it will be in a situation where it can be tackled in the first place. 4) Well, they had to make room for the MASSIVE jump drive. My Titan won't even have room for drones. And costing a lot doesn't mean it should be invulnerable, right? 5) The JF's offensive inability is not the issue, if you think it is, you either misread or have been misled. 6) What? OK, you can't fit things to it, again, why did you bring this up? 7) This poorly written statement is - I think - some type of insult at me, are you saying I paid real money for my Avatar and Aeon? Because I didn't, but OK, this is a really valid point against nerfing JFs. Well played, sir.
And the rest of your post is also some sort of insult about me and my Alliance. |
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 17:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any ulterior interest in this happening. Nor yet could the entrenched positions of Alliances of...well, not-so-small...size possibly benefit directly even more after the winter expansion and its' Super-capital nerfs... Could he/could they. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable! Any such derived benefit would be pure coincidence, and to imply otherwise is pure, vicious slander! Slander, I say! [/sarcasm]
Since you have no criticism of my actual points and are just trying to troll me, please refrain from posting again. If you would like to discuss the issue at hand, then you are welcome to contribute in this conversation. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
471
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 20:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them. The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 23:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them.
I'm glad you are contributing to my thread goonNOOB. |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
195
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 00:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Honestly.
Centra, you have to ask yourself this....
What would Awox do? [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img] |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 00:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Eat a pounder. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 01:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
I remember a time when PL put thought and effort into their trolling threads. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 02:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them.
I actually +1'ed a Ladie Harlot/Scarlett post....(Sigh)...What is this world coming to, eh?
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 02:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Wow look at PL being all mad that some third-rate merc alliances have figured out how to kill jumpfreighters but they haven't. As usual, they would rather have CCP do their dirty work for them. I'm glad you are contributing to my thread goonNOOB.
Why, because this is true?
I can haz ur stuffs? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 02:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Jiska Ensa wrote:
[...]
Nerfing jump freighters only hurts small alliances.
And the OP couldn't possibly have any ulterior interest in this happening. Nor yet could the entrenched positions of Alliances of...well, not-so-small...size possibly benefit directly even more after the winter expansion and its' Super-capital nerfs... Could he/could they. No way, no how, utterly unthinkable! Any such derived benefit would be pure coincidence, and to imply otherwise is pure, vicious slander! Slander, I say! [/sarcasm] Since you have no criticism of my actual points and are just trying to troll me, please refrain from posting again. .
NO U
|
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 02:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
More posts not addressing the issue, thank you for your attention, though. If we are going to get things fixed, we need this kind of publicity. |
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Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 02:55:00 -
[31] - Quote
Either PL are mad or PL are trolling and I hope it's the latter because **** |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 03:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
I am mad, mad that you guys don't see how overpowered Jump Freighters are. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 06:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:I am mad, mad that you guys don't see how overpowered Jump Freighters are. LOL UMAD
U SO JELLY, I COULD PUT YOU ON TOAST LOL.
STILL MAD???? LOLOL |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
100
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 09:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
492
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 10:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient
You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
100
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 10:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend.
OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 11:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one
and for once i actually agreeing with a goon So what, cost isn't a balance factor. If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too. |
AmberIynn
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 11:39:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mik kyo wrote:Centra has a point,
Also jump freighters have to be one of the biggest 'killers' of lowsec. Without them people were forced to travel the pipes with there goods and ships, and freighters needed to be escorted and defended.
No. Before jump freighters, people used carriers for logistics and still do in many cases. |
Valoche Mrehl
Les Assassins des Fauteuils Rollents
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 15:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
AmberIynn wrote:Mik kyo wrote:Centra has a point,
Also jump freighters have to be one of the biggest 'killers' of lowsec. Without them people were forced to travel the pipes with there goods and ships, and freighters needed to be escorted and defended. No. Before jump freighters, people used carriers for logistics and still do in many cases.
This.
If the end result was as you say, Centra, than it would be golden. Force localized production, slow down massive transfers of materials etc.
But the truth is people would hero tank their dreads, carriers, rorquals and continue to jump things in complete safety. With new "bays/cargoholds" it's not near as efficient, but I can't believe that would be a truly limiting factor. Maybe a few would stop, but it would not change the trend
99.9% safe jumping > Significant risk gate jumping. The root problem is deeper than Jump Freighters. They just legitimize it. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 15:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one
and for once i actually agreeing with a goon
I can fly an Anshar and a Rhea and own a Rhea. I also own an Avatar and an Aeon, which are so expensive they should own everything in the game, right?
And what chain of other people do you need to operate one? Do you mean a few cyno alts? |
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 15:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
AmberIynn wrote:Mik kyo wrote:Centra has a point,
Also jump freighters have to be one of the biggest 'killers' of lowsec. Without them people were forced to travel the pipes with there goods and ships, and freighters needed to be escorted and defended. No. Before jump freighters, people used carriers for logistics and still do in many cases.
Carriers can't jump from high-sec, you still had to get your stuff to the carrier via a gate.
Jump Freighters can move massive amounts of finished goods with impunity. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 15:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Valoche Mrehl wrote:If the end result was as you say, Centra, than it would be golden. Force localized production, slow down massive transfers of materials etc. But the truth is people would hero tank their dreads, carriers, rorquals and continue to jump things in complete safety. With new "bays/cargoholds" it's not near as efficient, but I can't believe that would be a truly limiting factor. Maybe a few would stop, but it would not change the trend 99.9% safe jumping > Significant risk gate jumping. The root problem is deeper than Jump Freighters. They just legitimize it.
The three ship types you listed could be used for moving stuff, but not nearly at the same scale as the Jump Freighter, nor can they jump from the safety of high sec. You would still have to move stuff to them.
I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
488
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 16:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Jump Freighters can move massive amounts of finished goods with impunity. Then you're doing it wrongGǪ GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 16:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself?
fully agree |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 16:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Centra Spike wrote:Jump Freighters can move massive amounts of finished goods with impunity. Then you're doing it wrongGǪ
Doing what wrong? Moving 21b worth of tech every month with no worries or issues?
March rabbit wrote:Centra Spike wrote:I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself? fully agree
No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
526
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 16:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:Bumblefck wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend. OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself
I am neither British nor American, Canadian nor New Zealander, Australian nor South African. English isn't my native language, and yet I try to make a pretty good stab at it and assemble things in a coherent manner. I realise that the prevailing wisdom in EFL/ESL teaching is that 'Communication first - grammatical accuracy second', but...well...
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
David Magnus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 19:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked) to within docking range of a station?
And then they can undock from a station in low sec and actually jump before their session change timer runs out (so they are invulnerable until they jump?) ??
And all you need is a couple billion isk to buy it and a cyno alt?
Wow, that's insanely overpowered - how can people not see that? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
490
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 19:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Doing what wrong? Letting them do it with impunity. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 19:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Centra Spike wrote:Doing what wrong? Letting them do it with impunity.
It's not a matter of anyone letting anyone do anything, within the game mechanics you can be disproportionately safe compared to any other method of moving that much stuff by being in session change and docking range.
Something I do twice a month when I fuel my Tech moon empire. But judging from your clever one-line response, I'm sure you can kill my Rhea. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 22:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
If jump freighters are so safe why am I seeing multiple JF killmails on eve-kill every day? If you PL dudes can't figure it out go ask the MOAR TEARS guys how they do it. |
|
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 22:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dunno why some don't want to accept it, but JFs ARE overpowered. The very idea of instantenious logistics looks weird to say the least.
CCP indirectly admits it by keeping autopilot landing you at 15 km, btw ;)
That's the same **** as with supers - some think that price alone is a valid reason for something to be an ultimate weapon - be it insta-killing DD, insta-travelling portal or insta-hauling. It is not. EVE's never been that fubar as it is now - and this due to CCP adopting this corrupt idea (partially or mostly - up to debate, but the point remains).
Btw, supers are dying on a daily basis, too - and this doesn't make them 'balanced' all of a sudden. No way. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
38
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 23:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:If jump freighters are so safe why am I seeing multiple JF killmails on eve-kill every day? If you PL dudes can't figure it out go ask the MOAR TEARS guys how they do it.
Supercaps die also, but they are getting nerfed, what's your point? It's funny that all you detractors seem to be focused on the same minor point, which is killing JFs. The LOGISTICAL capability of the JF is what needs to be balanced.
Thank you for your support Fon, I'm glad some people understand the issue being raised. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 09:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
steave435 wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one
and for once i actually agreeing with a goon So what, cost isn't a balance factor. If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too.
But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.
Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?
And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh! I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Xiao Mafan
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:pussnheels wrote:Bumblefck wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend. OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself I am neither British nor American, Canadian nor New Zealander, Australian nor South African. English isn't my native language, and yet I try to make a pretty good stab at it and assemble things in a coherent manner. I realise that the prevailing wisdom in EFL/ESL teaching is that 'Communication first - grammatical accuracy second', but...well...
One generally takes a stab at something. Also, not everyone has had the advantage of having been taught English formally. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.
Until then adapt or die. Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.
Thxbye
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one
and for once i actually agreeing with a goon So what, cost isn't a balance factor. If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too. But it's not a super-capital. Not even close. Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates-- in hisec--whilst I was sleeping? And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh! It isn't classed as one right now, but it should be, because that's what it effectively is. Unfitted, it has about 100 times as much EHP as its sub-capital brothers, which is about as much EHP as SCs gains over theirs. A non-nyx SC does 8000 DPS, while a BS does 1000, so an 8x increase in their primary role, while a JF can carry about 10 times as much as the regular industrials. The ship never enters combat, and if it is somehow caught, it will try to get out asap, so rep tank is irrelevant, only EHP counts.
Indeed supercaps can NOT dock in stations, and go trough gates, or enter high sec at all - that is why the industrial supercap, the JF, is overpowered! It's an inofficial supercap that CAN do all those things!
You obviously have no clue what you're talking about though, JFs can be built in low sec stations, but yes, they should be given official supercap status and require that sov and towers to be built and the defenders to defend it while it builds.
Oh and requiring a support fleet obviously means requiring a support fleet when actually using the ship, the other supercaps all do despite taking all that effort and several times more isk to build. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.
Until then adapt or die. Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.
Thxbye
They jump from the safety of dock range to the safety of dock range with a 30 second invulnerability and then warp to the high sec gate at 0 and jumps in. Unless you're at war, the only way to kill one that isn't an utter ****** (and they don't count for balancing purposes...I know you want to be included, but you're simply irrelevant)...actually, scratch that, getting it killed due to a war is also being an utter ******, so the only way to kill one that isn't an utter ****** is suicide ganking it during its time in high sec, if it even goes there rather then just jumping back and forth from safe stations. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 11:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.
I for one piloted one in a month after they got released - and I'm not even sure you played EVE back in those days :) Sold it after our POS cluster was disassembled, but still I have had this kind of experience. So why troll? 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 12:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
"*CCP has+ gone *too far+ in the direction of making players lives easy GÇô we've got jump freighters and jump bridges and all this *stuff+ GÇô and I think there is an agreement here *at CCP+ that we want to pull back from that. We would like to pull back as far as we can get away with. But how far can we go?GÇ¥ The underlying point is the need to get a balance between avoiding frustration and getting desirable macro- scale outcomes. " -CCP Greyscale, Dec 2010 CSM Summit
Now that they are working on FIS hopefully CCP can take a look a jump freighters and further jb nerfs. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 15:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:David Grogan wrote:0/10 troll Compelling argument, my friend. But by reducing the ability to move finished goods to nullsec it will force production to be shifted from Empire to nullsec. This will boost regional industry and lead to more dynamic game play. Instead of just recruiting "elite Jump Freighter" pilots alliances will be forced to get a broad spectrum of players encouraging growth in their space.
no it wont
at present t2 production is so reliant on technetium & using valueable bpos that noone in their right mind will mass build t2 gear / ships in conquerable stations and risk getting locked out.
the few t2 bpos will never leave high sec... you'd be damn silly to risk losing one.
With goons on a campaign to blockage ice its even more likely t2 production will never leave high sec.
also outposts have very limited build slots and poses are getting too costly to produce stuff in and are hopelessly weak vs today's cap /supercap blobs. they arent even good vs bs blobs. |
|
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 15:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
David Magnus wrote:So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked)
have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately
Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign |
AureoLion
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 16:18:00 -
[62] - Quote
JFs aren't overpowered at all, mineral compression is. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 17:54:00 -
[63] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.
Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?
And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh!
It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.
Tanya Powers wrote:Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.
Until then adapt or die. Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.
Thxbye
Sounds like someone doesn't want their easy-mode logistics ship nerfed. Game breaking ships need to be brought in line.
David Grogan wrote:
no it wont
at present t2 production is so reliant on technetium & using valueable bpos that noone in their right mind will mass build t2 gear / ships in conquerable stations and risk getting locked out.
the few t2 bpos will never leave high sec... you'd be damn silly to risk losing one.
With goons on a campaign to blockage ice & killing any form of industrial its even more likely t2 production will never leave high sec.
also outposts have very limited build slots and poses are getting too costly to produce stuff in and are hopelessly weak vs today's cap /supercap blobs. they arent even good vs bs blobs.
People are willing to bring their Supercapital BPOs and BPCs to 0.0, which are also extremely valuable, because they are forced to. If T2 production was forced to 0.0 or received a massive bonus, people would move production to 0.0, which would involve more than a Jump Freighter change.
But beyond shifting industry to 0.0, or at least encouraging it, the Jump Freighter needs to be looked at. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 17:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:David Magnus wrote:So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked) have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign
So they die, what's your point?
Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking. |
Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 18:36:00 -
[65] - Quote
Anyone can login trap or use suicide alts to catch noobs who fly their jump freighter in corp during war dec...it's like saying super caps shouldn't be nerfed because PL rapes dudes who go afk in their nyx at jump bridge poses.
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 18:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Sounds like someone doesn't want their easy-mode logistics ship nerfed. Game breaking ships need to be brought in line.
Let me get this straigh 4U
I clearly don't give a **** you manage to break JF's or nerf them, I clearly don't give a **** of ganking miners haulers in high sec or whatever.
I do care when I log if I have fun or not, the day come where I don't any more, I will change just like I did with other games.
Most posts about nerf/revamp are about personal opinions and wishes and not for the greater good of the game or community majority.
The result is what you have right now, and dare to say it's noobs that make it I'm already smiling.
Go ahead nerf the JF, nerf everything I don't care. I'm cross trained minmatar why should I care from now on? |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 18:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:David Grogan wrote:David Magnus wrote:So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked) have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign So they die, what's your point? Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking.
my point was someone said they cant be killed in high sec............. the link proves otherwise.
|
Mongo Edwards
Royal Order of Security Specialists
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 19:46:00 -
[68] - Quote
If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:
1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job 2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov 3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates 4) Would gain EWAR immunity 5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff
Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.
Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed.
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 21:10:00 -
[69] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:Centra Spike wrote:David Grogan wrote:David Magnus wrote:So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked) have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign So they die, what's your point? Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking. my point was someone said they cant be killed in high sec............. the link proves otherwise. I said JFs can't be killed unless the pilot is ********, and that they/you don't count since ships need to be balanced according to how people that have a clue about how to use them use them. Those JF pilots were ********.
Mongo Edwards wrote:If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:
1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job 2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov 3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates 4) Would gain EWAR immunity 5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff
Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.
Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed. 1) Sure they can do their job, they just need a support fleet to bring the goods to them in the POS and back to station in the target system. The support hauls between station and POS, JF hauls between systems, like in the real world where lots of trucks bring stuff to ships and then the ships carry that somewhere else where other trucks unload it.
2) Indeed.
3) Exactly
4) Maybe, it's a super cap industrial after all, not a super cap combat ship.
5) Nope, a JF has about 100 times as much EHP as their sub cap version when unfitted, roughly the same ratio apply to a BS compared to a SC.
No, it doesn't, the JF would be made unable to dock.
No you can't, you wait out your session change timer and then start trying to warp. If you get tackled, you dock back up and try again. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 22:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mongo Edwards wrote:If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:
1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job 2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov 3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates 4) Would gain EWAR immunity 5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff
Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.
Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed.
You're using the attributes of a supercarrier and titan to define what a supercapital is, which is correct in the current state of the game. The supercarrier and titan are in a tier above the carrier and dread, and benefit from your listed attributes.
Now when you look at the Jump Freighter in comparison to the Freighter, it gains massive bonuses. The difference between the tiers is what makes the JF a "supercapital" when compared to the Freighter.
And again, just because they can die, doesn't mean they aren't unbalanced, especially when the majority of JFs can avoid even being in a situation where they can be "targetted/pointed/killed".
The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around. |
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 01:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around.
Sounds like your problem is with stations and game mechanics, not JFs. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 01:42:00 -
[72] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace
umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one
and for once i actually agreeing with a goon So what, cost isn't a balance factor. If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too. But it's not a super-capital. Not even close. Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates-- in hisec--whilst I was sleeping? And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh! It isn't classed as one right now, but it should be, because that's what it effectively is. Unfitted, it has about 100 times as much EHP as its sub-capital brothers, which is about as much EHP as SCs gains over theirs. A non-nyx SC does 8000 DPS, while a BS does 1000, so an 8x increase in their primary role, while a JF can carry about 10 times as much as the regular industrials. The ship never enters combat, and if it is somehow caught, it will try to get out asap, so rep tank is irrelevant, only EHP counts. Indeed supercaps can NOT dock in stations, and go trough gates, or enter high sec at all - that is why the industrial supercap, the JF, is overpowered! It's an inofficial supercap that CAN do all those things! You obviously have no clue what you're talking about though, JFs can be built in low sec stations, but yes, they should be given official supercap status and require that sov and towers to be built and the defenders to defend it while it builds. Oh and requiring a support fleet obviously means requiring a support fleet when actually using the ship, the other supercaps all do despite taking all that effort and several times more isk to build.
Oh, sorry my bad, re building: I thought they could only be built in null, but it turns out I was wrong. (Can they, or at least their components, be built in hisec? Major risk of gank, if so. At least, that's a target I'd go after with a few Arty-Pests )
The rest of this however, is a pure fallacy of false equivalence:
The fact that it has about 20-50 times--not even close to 100--the EHP of a (properly-tanked) industrial, and quite a bit less of a gap between it and a (properly-tanked again) tech II Transport (the non-cloaky one) isn't saying much when the former, especially, are made of paper.
The most durable of the JFs, the Amarr Ark-class (I think? C/B/A to check), has ca. 351,000EHP with max skills/no implants, so that's a little more than the heaviest-tanked battleships and/or command ships...But it's slowness and city-sized signature work against it--30-35 gank-fitted arty-Maels can still alpha it in a 0.5/0.6if they overheat, have good skills, and use Domination ammo into it's resist holes.
Now, the fallacy of your argument:
The fact that they have such a large EHP compared to their sub-capital brethren, and the fact that this proportion is roughly equal to capital/supercapital warships vs. their sub-cap brethren does not in itself, imply anything at all, let alone advantage:
The former are warships, and can defend themselves--whilst being immune to conventional tackle and EWAR--the JF is a big, really really expensive box that cannot, and is not.
The two fulfill completely different roles, in completely different manners, and the JF cannot defend itself against attack, and if it gets pointed by anything at all, then it's probably finished. And that's not even concerning the cost of its' cargo.
In other words, two ship-types being capital sized and having jump drives does not make them or their "power" equivalent in any way, given how totally different their intended roles are, and the fact that one can't defend itself at all.
Sooooo....tell me, OP: If CCP were to nerf the jumping/bridging ability of super-capital warships along with JFs--they're equivalent in that sense after all! You said so, not I!--would you be so happy then, to "take the good with the bad," as it were?
[ cynicism]
I tend to doubt it myself...
[/cynicism]
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 02:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Most nullsec alliances, including GoonSwarm, depend heavily on jump freighters. I agree that they're overpowered to an extent - but it's a necessary evil. Mining is mind-numbing and boring, and it's much too risky in nullsec for too little reward, especially since the ships can't tank 0.0 belt rat spawns.
Nullsec industry sucks. Nerfing jump freighters will simply cause nullsec alliances to huddle up closer to Empire, leaving a majority of the map vacant.
1) Seed infrastructure hub upgrade BPOs, damn it. 2) Find a sane solution to the sorry state of nullsec industry. The largest part of nullsec industry revolves around building supercapitals. This should not be the case. 3) As with #1, minimize nullsec's dependency on NPC-seeded items in general.
When these things have been fixed, then nerfing jump freighters will make sense. Don't screw nullsec over. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 03:22:00 -
[74] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Centra Spike wrote:The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around. Sounds like your problem is with stations and game mechanics, not JFs. edit: u still mad btw, let the butthurt flow through you
Log-off mechanics also protected supercapitals, and they are being addressed as part of the upcoming nerf to supercapitals.
P.S. u still a bad Drake pilot, and Elo says he hates you.
Lyrrashae wrote:Sooooo....tell me, OP: If CCP were to nerf the jumping/bridging ability of super-capital warships along with JFs--they're equivalent in that sense after all! You said so, not I!--would you be so happy then, to "take the good with the bad," as it were?
What? I assume the rest of your post is in regards to Steave, I haven't read his posts because he tried to take my titan's parking spot until I threatened to eject him from the tower.
The argument is that JFs are unbalanced in their role of moving stuff. In this role they are vastly superior to any other ship within that role. And the jump (pun intended) between the freighter and the jump freighter is equivalent to the increase capability of the supercarrier and carrier.
I am not comparing these two separate ship classes against each other, I am comparing the differences between each tier of ship in its respective class.
Andski wrote:Most nullsec alliances, including GoonSwarm, depend heavily on jump freighters. I agree that they're overpowered to an extent - but it's a necessary evil. Mining is mind-numbing and boring, and it's much too risky in nullsec for too little reward, especially since the ships can't tank 0.0 belt rat spawns.
Nullsec industry sucks. Nerfing jump freighters will simply cause nullsec alliances to huddle up closer to Empire, leaving a majority of the map vacant.
1) Seed infrastructure hub upgrade BPOs, damn it. 2) Find a sane solution to the sorry state of nullsec industry. The largest part of nullsec industry revolves around building supercapitals. This should not be the case. 3) As with #1, minimize nullsec's dependency on NPC-seeded items in general.
When these things have been fixed, then nerfing jump freighters will make sense. Don't screw nullsec over.
I do agree that JFs make logistics so much easier, if I had to move all my stuff any other way, I wouldn't be happy.
However, a lot of things are mind-numbingly boring in this game, but it's not a valid reason not to address an issue. And if a ship class requires a fleet to protect it, why not force that change? By neutering supercarriers' ability to ward off sub caps, CCP is effectively forcing these ship classes to require a fleet for protection.
I don't believe alliances would huddle closer to empire for ease of logistics, the jump bridge allows movement over vast amounts of space.
As to your other points, there are a lot of sweeping changes CCP needs to make, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 04:58:00 -
[75] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Log-off mechanics also protected supercapitals, and they are being addressed as part of the upcoming nerf to supercapitals.
So hey nerf docking radius, make more stations kickouts, etc. Don't say, "oh boy, haul freighters through 8 jumps of low and 22 jumps of null to get your alliance **** it needs!"
Quote:P.S. u still a bad Drake pilot, and Elo says he hates you.
lol you should cry for triage about it, babby spike |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 05:36:00 -
[76] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:lol you should cry for triage about it, babby spike
Bro-pact over. |
Tasiv Deka
The Baseborn Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 08:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:Bumblefck wrote:pussnheels wrote:to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend. OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself forgot the g in anglo but if English isn't your native language that's acceptable and besides he should have used dimwitted so ignore him cause hey he made the big deal but screwed up more |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Against ALL Authorities
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 08:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jump Freighter is op. Just because idiots use them doesn't mean otherwise. If the only criteria for balance is that you can die if you're a dumbass while piloting it then SC wouldn't be getting a nerf right now. Idiots die in SC all the time.
Carrier and Rorqual can do almost the same thing. Only difference is no high sec. If the Jump Freighter was removed from the game players could use those ships to do exactly the same thing. So in the end calling for a JF nerf only really accounts to demanding that people not be allowed to haul as much safely at one time. I don't see much point in this.
Trying to get industry to blossom in 0.0 is like trying to grow a garden in the dessert. If you're crafty you could do it. You could live off the dessert if you had to. But if you want an apple its easier to get it shipped in. If you're not able to ship it in you're not going to grow an apple tree. You're gonna learn to like cactus fruit.
The only way to create 0.0 industry is to get rid of highsec or change the mining experience so its not a task for bots and then boost 0.0 mining rates through the roof compared to highsec. |
Tasiv Deka
The Baseborn Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 08:59:00 -
[79] - Quote
MukkBarovian wrote:Jump Freighter is op. Just because idiots use them doesn't mean otherwise. If the only criteria for balance is that you can die if you're a dumbass while piloting it then SC wouldn't be getting a nerf right now. Idiots die in SC all the time.
Carrier and Rorqual can do almost the same thing. Only difference is no high sec. If the Jump Freighter was removed from the game players could use those ships to do exactly the same thing. So in the end calling for a JF nerf only really accounts to demanding that people not be allowed to haul as much safely at one time. I don't see much point in this.
Trying to get industry to blossom in 0.0 is like trying to grow a garden in the dessert. If you're crafty you could do it. You could live off the dessert if you had to. But if you want an apple its easier to get it shipped in. If you're not able to ship it in you're not going to grow an apple tree. You're gonna learn to like cactus fruit.
The only way to create 0.0 industry is to get rid of highsec or change the mining experience so its not a task for bots and then boost 0.0 mining rates through the roof compared to highsec.
i actually like cactus fruit... well i like tequila which is close enough |
Sh0plifter
Black Market Operations
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 13:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
You're POSes are doing well with blowing up your JFs. So, you are really solving this problem yourselves. |
|
loser mclame fatty
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 13:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
comparing supercaps to jfs lol this thread is ******** op should be euthanized |
Akara Ito
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 14:16:00 -
[82] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote: It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.
Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that.
But I'll do you the favor and bite:
1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it. 2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf 3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it. 4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 16:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sh0plifter wrote:You're POSes are doing well with blowing up your JFs. So, you are really solving this problem yourselves.
I assume you are talking about a HABIT tower ownzoning a BDCI freighter? Or are you talking about the SNIGG JF that we killed?
In the freighter incident, it's mostly because BDCI is bad and warped a neutral freighter to a tower.
In the JF incident, we had to wait until he was well out of dock range to kill him.
Akara Ito wrote:Centra Spike wrote: It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.
Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that. But I'll do you the favor and bite: 1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it. 2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf 3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it. 4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that.
1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this?
2) Supercarriers and Titans are getting nerfed not because they are supercapitals, but because within the games current mechanics, CCP feels they are overpowered. I believe Jump Freighters, too, are overpowered within the current game mechanics and need to be nerfed. No where did I say they should be nerfed because they are supercapitals.
3) If the bonuses from switching to a Black Ops from a BS gave the Black Ops near invulnerability while performing its primary attribute (DPS, as you say) then, yes, it would need to be addressed. But it doesn't.
4) Who said anything about convoys of Freighters through lowsec? But you are wrong, it happens all the time, with and without escorts. |
Deyo
Initium Malum 0ccupational Hazzard
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 17:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Let me see if i got this correctly. CCP decided to build a shopping mall over you playground and you want to kick someone else sand castle for that? |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 19:03:00 -
[85] - Quote
Akara Ito wrote:Centra Spike wrote: It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.
Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that. But I'll do you the favor and bite: 1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it. 2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf 3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it. 4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that. No, 1) does not mean it's not a supercap, it means it's terribly OP because it's a supercap that can do all those things. Thus 2). 3) Irrelevant. It move any stack of items over vast distances way faster then any freighter can. 4) So watch local and make sure there isn't a big hostile gang there then, or stop them at the gate they're entering system trough, idiot |
Dors Venabily
Percone Outcasts
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 21:04:00 -
[86] - Quote
Well Jump bridges, Jump Freighters, and Carriers and other super caps should have their effective range cut in half. |
|
CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
232
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 09:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
Inappropriate comments removed. CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
510
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 09:39:00 -
[88] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this? The fact that you've just invented an arbitrary definition of GÇ£supercapGÇ¥ that is not consistent with what sets supercaps apart. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 15:49:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Centra Spike wrote:1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this? The fact that you've just invented an arbitrary definition of GÇ£supercapGÇ¥ that is not consistent with what sets supercaps apart. You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
511
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 16:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
steave435 wrote:You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary. Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps.
You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps are supercaps. Good luck.
JFs are not supercaps by any stretch of the imagination. They're simply standard, very very weak, jump-capable caps (who gain access to highsec as compensation for that weakness), whereas freighters are standard, very very weak, non-jumping caps (who get lower building requirements as compensation for lacking functionality that could otherwise be considered standard on caps).
In fact, you might rather be able to argue that normal freighters are not caps at all, because that makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to fit JFs into a supercap category that they have exactly zero in common with. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
|
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 16:40:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps. You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps and Blockade Runners are supercaps. Good luck. JFs are not supercaps by any stretch of the imagination. They're simply standard, very very weak, jump-capable caps (who gain access to highsec as compensation for that weakness), whereas freighters are standard, very very weak, non-jumping caps (who get lower building requirements as compensation for lacking functionality that could otherwise be considered standard on caps). In fact, you might rather be able to argue that normal freighters are not caps at all, because that makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to fit JFs into a supercap category that they have exactly zero in common with.
I said cost shouldn't be a factor in reasoning why it should be so good, not that cost should be discounted in defining its role.
I already addressed the Black Ops issue, since you brought up Blockade Runners, even though you are attempting to confuse the issue, let's discuss it. Blockade Runners do gain logistical ability over their T1 version, but in their course of moving stuff their bonuses don't synergize with game mechanics to make this job near invulnerable.
Perhaps the Freighter should not be considered a capital in your definition of 'capital'. But you are just skirting the issue that relative to its next lower tier it gains massive logistical ability. Ability that works with game mechanics to keep it near 100% safe performing its role.
By redefining the terms I have used to describe the Jump Freighter you are attempting to marginalize the issue.
It doesn't matter what words I use to describe the problem, because the problem exists. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
511
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 17:03:00 -
[92] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:I said cost shouldn't be a factor in reasoning why it should be so good, not that cost should be discounted in defining its role. GǪbut dismissing cost is dismissing cost. If we are allowed to look at cost as part of the balancing act, then the JFs pretty much immediately get disqualified from supercap status since they don't really follow the trend.
Quote:I already addressed the Black Ops issue, since you brought up Blockade Runners, even though you are attempting to confuse the issue, let's discuss it. Blockade Runners do gain logistical ability over their T1 version, but in their course of moving stuff their bonuses don't synergize with game mechanics to make this job near invulnerable. EhmGǪ Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job GÇö moving stuff in bulk GÇö for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability.
Quote:Perhaps the Freighter should not be considered a capital in your definition of 'capital'. GǪand that definition is at least as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of GǣsupercapGǥ onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps.
Quote:But you are just skirting the issue that relative to its next lower tier it gains massive logistical ability. GǪsuch as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap.
Quote:By redefining the terms I have used to describe the Jump Freighter you are attempting to marginalize the issue. But redefining them to inflate the issue is a-ok? RightGǪ
Your entire problem here is that you're trying to squeeze your wish to alter the abilities of a ship into a completely unrelated change and thus ride on its coat-tails. If you had skipped that bit and instead argued the problem on its own merits, or attached it to the actual and on-going discussion about nullsec logistics, your complaint would not have seemed nearly as silly. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 18:40:00 -
[93] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪbut dismissing cost is dismissing cost. If we are allowed to look at cost as part of the balancing act, then the JFs pretty much immediately get disqualified from supercap status since they don't really follow the trend.
You are arguing a point I never made, you attempted to say that I said cost shouldn't be a factor. I corrected you.
Quote:EhmGǪ Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job GÇö moving stuff in bulk GÇö for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability.
Really? You consider being able to jump in dock range and under session timer parallel to being able to cloak and be more maneuverable? Please.
Quote:GǪand that definition is at east as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of GǣsupercapGǥ onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps.
The defining thing of supercaps is they are a 'super' version of the next tier down.
Quote:GǪsuch as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap.
What T2 version of any ship gains the ability to perform its job with impunity by abusing game mechanics besides the Jump Freighter?
Quote: Your entire problem here is that you're trying to squeeze your wish to alter the abilities of a ship into a completely unrelated change and thus ride on its coat-tails. If you had skipped that bit and instead argued the problem on its own merits, or attached it to the actual and on-going discussion about nullsec logistics, your complaint would not have seemed nearly as silly.
No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion. |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 19:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
If you change JFs so they can't haul anything else than minerals, then you're actually keeping them from moving stacks of 425mm railguns or other commodity items we use to compress minerals. That means, you can't do it. Or make it so the JF have a mineral bay of something like 800k, and a regular bay of 50k for various modules and such. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 19:13:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tippia wrote:steave435 wrote:You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary. Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps. You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps and Blockade Runners are supercaps. Good luck. I can't believe I have to explain this... JFs are supercaps because they're a super version of a capital. Black ops and blockade runners are not super caps because they are super version of something that is NOT a capital (freighters and JFs are, as evidenced by what the capitals-only DD will be able to fire at). And not massively improved? Try for example moving stuff from jita to amamake. A freighter can carry 3 times as much, but it has to pass trough 50 gates and jump trough a gate into low sec, while having lower agility then a JF. A JF only has to use its jump drive twice and pass trough 4 high sec gates. Guess which one is gonna get done first?
Quote:EhmGǪ Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job GÇö moving stuff in bulk GÇö for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability Really? Try bubbles or orbiting the gate at 12k, or just wait until he's unlucky and gets put next to a can/wreck. JFs don't sacrifice any moving capability, they take less per haul, but can make SOOOO many more trips in the same time span.
Quote:GǪand that definition is at least as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of GǣsupercapGǥ onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps. That's because you seem to be stuck thinking that a supercap must be a COMBAT super cap. This is an INDUSTRIAL super cap. Thus instead of massive DPS and tank, it gets massively improved hauling ability.
Quote:GǪsuch as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap. A fact which is compensated for with the jump drive many times over.
|
Tasiv Deka
The Baseborn Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 19:38:00 -
[96] - Quote
Unless the wiki hasnt been updated im fairly sure the jump drive uses Cyno fields which cant be opened in high sec space therefore you would still have to jump through high sec until you were within range of a low sec field. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
513
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 20:19:00 -
[97] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:You are arguing a point I never made, you attempted to say that I said cost shouldn't be a factor. I corrected you. Ok. Fine. Cost is a factor. That means JFs are not supercaps. They're not nearly expensive enough.
Quote:Really? You consider being able to jump in dock range and under session timer parallel to being able to cloak and be more maneuverable? I consider being effectively invulnerable to be comparable to being effectively invulnerable. Or, more accurately, I don't consider either of them effectively invulnerable, so the comparison holds regardless.
Quote:The defining thing of supercaps is they are a 'super' version of the next tier down. GǪwhich means JFs don't qualify, since they just follow the standard T2 specialisation pattern, and since the GǣsuperGǥ in supercap does not imply what you think it does. See belowGǪ
Quote:What T2 version of any ship gains the ability to perform its job with impunity None. Not even the JF. Or wellGǪ I suppose if you absolutely want to stretch Gǣwith impunityGǥ to such a ludicrous degree that it includes the JF, then BRs and HICs, and even som HACs. Many would definitely argue that recons fall into this category too at that point.
Quote:No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion. GǪso why this ridiculous notion that they are supercaps, when they so very clearly aren't and when it is of no relevance to your complaint?
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
513
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 20:20:00 -
[98] - Quote
steave435 wrote:I can't believe I have to explain this... JFs are supercaps because they're a super version of a capital. Black ops and blockade runners are not super caps because they are super version of something that is NOT a capital (freighters and JFs are, as evidenced by what the capitals-only DD will be able to fire at). And not massively improved? Try for example moving stuff from jita to amamake. A freighter can carry 3 times as much, but it has to pass trough 50 gates and jump trough a gate into low sec, while having lower agility then a JF. A JF only has to use its jump drive twice and pass trough 4 high sec gates. Guess which one is gonna get done first? JFs are not supercaps for the same reason as why Blops and BRs aren't supercaps: because they build on and further specialise on a T1 hull and sacrifice some parts for other improvements. Supercaps do none of those things.
Supercaps are defined by: GÇó Having specialised weaponry that normal caps can't use (or, more generalised: doing the same thing, but more). -+ GǪas well as improved abilities when using the same equipment. GÇó Having immunities that normal caps do not have. GÇó Not being allowed to dock. GÇó Having an order of magnitude better defensive capabilities. GÇó Being their own separate ships, not based on a previously existing hull.
Of these, JFs maybe qualify for the second (sub)point.
Let's instead look at T2. T2 is defined by: GÇó Being based on a T1 ship. -+ GǪand taking that T1 ship and pushing some aspects at the expense of others to create some kind of specialisation. GÇó Receiving some basic defensive buffs, usually through resists.
Of these, JFs qualify in every wayGǪ unsurprisingly, seeing as how they're T2 ships. Just because JFs are the only T2 capship does not mean that they are supercaps GÇö it just means they are exactly that: T2 caps. The whole GÇ£next tier downGÇ¥ would mean that freighters are also supercaps (making JFs what? supersupers?) since the next tier down is the capital ship Orca GÇö you know, that other popular and cheap industrial hauler? I suppose the Rorqual is a supercap as wellGǪ
Quote:Really? Try bubbles or orbiting the gate at 12k, or just wait until he's unlucky and gets put next to a can/wreck. JFs don't sacrifice any moving capability, they take less per haul, but can make SOOOO many more trips in the same time span. Now try shooting the JF when he shows up outside station or a gate. You don't even need any bubbles or orbits or cans. You can drop the charade that JFs are somehow invulnerable, because it is so silly that it seriously harms your argument.
Quote:That's because you seem to be stuck thinking that a supercap must be a COMBAT super cap. Learn to read. At what point did I ever mention combat? I didn't GÇö you're just hallucinating from your feverish need to squeeze this absolute non-issue into the pattern of a completely unrelated change in the hopes that the current willingness to nerf those ships will rub off on the JFs for no particularly well-defined reason.
Quote:This is an INDUSTRIAL super cap. Thus instead of massive DPS and tank, it gets massively improved hauling ability. GǪjust like any T2 variant, and completely unlike the supercaps. So no, it's not an industrial super cap GÇö it's a T2 industrial ship.
Quote:A fact which is compensated for with the jump drive many times over. GǪmuch like what happens with the T2 variants, but not with the supercaps (again, unsurprisingly, seeing as how we're not dealing with a supercap here, but with a T2 ship).
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 20:44:00 -
[99] - Quote
You realize that all large alliances use freighters thrown around by Titans to do all their logistics because it's less to push a freighter than it is to jump a JF that same distance even though the freighter holds 3x as much.
If you really want to fix logistics disallow freighters from using titan bridges |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 21:32:00 -
[100] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ok. Fine. Cost is a factor. That means JFs are not supercaps. They're not nearly expensive enough.
I agree, make them more expensive to be inline with their supercapital peers.
Quote:I consider being effectively invulnerable to be comparable to being effectively invulnerable. Or, more accurately, I don't consider either of them effectively invulnerable, so the comparison holds regardless.
Yeah, because there is a way to kill something in docking range under session timer.
Quote:GǪwhich means JFs don't qualify, since they just follow the standard T2 specialisation pattern, and since the GǣsuperGǥ in supercap does not imply what you think it does. See belowGǪ
None. Not even the JF. Or wellGǪ I suppose if you absolutely want to stretch Gǣwith impunityGǥ to such a ludicrous degree that it includes the JF, then BRs and HICs, and even som HACs. Many would definitely argue that recons fall into this category too at that point.
See above. This mechanic applies to every cyno in docking range, if they changed the cyno mechanic to be some distance from docking range, I'd be happy with that change for a start.
Quote:GǪso why this ridiculous notion that they are supercaps, when they so very clearly aren't and when it is of no relevance to your complaint?
You think they aren't supercapitals, I think they are. We could go on forever about this. But the fact remains, JFs can use the capabilties they gain over the Freighter with current game mechanics to move with impunity.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
513
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 21:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:I agree, make them more expensive to be inline with their supercapital peers. You need to make them supercaps before you do that. But sure, that would be nice GÇö give them some massive buffs and new hulls and new abilities to make them more worth-while.
Quote:Yeah, because there is a way to kill something in docking range under session timer. Yes. But why do it the hard way when you can hit them so easily elsewhere? Ok. So not with impunity unless we stretch the concept to such a degree that we can say the same thing about BRs and HICs, and even som HACs.
Quote:You think they aren't supercapitals, I think they are. And the game agrees with me.
Quote:But the fact remains, JFs can use the capabilties they gain over the Freighter with current game mechanics to move with impunity. GǪmuch like BRs, HICs and HACs. So what? Why this silliness about them being supercaps? It just muddies your argument. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 00:07:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ok, I don't know what measure anyone is using to say JFs are supercaps... They have no attributes unique to supercaps... The fact that they are the "best" industry ship (which is debatable) does not make them supercaps... When battleships were the biggest combat ships did that make them supercaps? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 00:19:00 -
[103] - Quote
Deyo wrote:Let me see if i got this correctly. CCP decided to build a shopping mall over you playground and you want to kick someone else sand castle for that?
Quoted for truth, and thread bumped for great justice and honour!
Please give up now, OP, whilst you can still do so in a reasonably dignified manner. I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 00:28:00 -
[104] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:
No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion.
No, it's not: It loses almost 70% of it's cargo-capacity to make up for its' jumping ability, and the EHP gain over the T I freighter is not enough to prevent 30 gank-fitted 1400mm Arty-Maels from one- or two-shotting its' ass.
A JF is not in any way the equivalent of an SC just because you pick an entirely arbitrary criterion to try and convince others that its' equivalently overpowered.
False equivalence fallacy, L2argue... I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 02:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
they don't fit much, the cost a fortune, the consume massive amounts of fuel, and they don't jump far. They are actually quite nice and very useful, are very different from normal freighters in terms of the load they carry. . .
JFs are fine. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 03:45:00 -
[106] - Quote
steave435 wrote:You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary. This is hilarious coming from somebody in PL.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 09:06:00 -
[107] - Quote
all yall toastin in a troll bread |
Sunviking
Mushroom inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 09:31:00 -
[108] - Quote
Hi,
I disagree with the OP.
Jump Freighters are not overpowered - there is nothing to stop one getting popped before it aligns to warp to the gate to highsec.
Quite honestly, it is one of the only things that enables small alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.
If you nerf Jump Freighters, you merely slow down trade in EVE, increasing the cost of everything.
Just because a bunch of pirates and big alliances don't like the fact it gives people a good chance to avoid getting killed, doesn't mean they should be nerfed. Their cost more than justifies their capabilities.
If Jump Freighters get nerfed, then we may as well get rid of T3 Interdiction Nullifier subsystems and Covops Cloaking Devices, for the same reason.
- Sun |
Mona X
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 14:19:00 -
[109] - Quote
Headerman wrote:Hmmm.... JFs are overpowered because "They do not usually have a support fleet".
Fine then. Remove their ability to use drones and lower their dronebay, so they could carry max 30 fighters or fighter bombers... Winter Expansion is Coming. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 16:47:00 -
[110] - Quote
Buff the JF, give it 100x the range and 1/10 the current fuel cost. Increase the hitpoints by a factor of 20 and all resists get bumped up to 99% across the board. Increase the size of the cargo bay to that of standard freighters and decrease the align time so its equal to a Pod as well as 100% immunity to EWAR and built in interdiction nullifier ability + a signature so tiney it takes a HIC an hour to lock it. It also gets 1 highslot for a covert ops cloak and a bonus to fitting, along with the current dronebay size of a SC before its nerfed. Sounds just about right, to **** off the OP with an unkillable target.
And buff super caps even more over their current stards, forget the nerfs. The forum rebals whine to much, but more tears brings the world closer to a cure for cancer( and ending hunger in third world, Sorry Mr. Chuck Norris no Nobel Prize for you) and I am tired of hearing "X is overpowered, nerf it cause its too hard!", titans don't need 2 meter thermal vents to give them a weakness you just need to grow some balls, nut off in your hand, and get over it as its just a game. |
|
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:38:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:they don't fit much, the cost a fortune, the consume massive amounts of fuel, and they don't jump far. They are actually quite nice and very useful, are very different from normal freighters in terms of the load they carry. . .
JFs are fine.
My Avatar doesn't fit much, costs a fortune, consumes 50,000 topes when I DD something, doesn't jump very far. It's actually quite nice and very useful and is very different from normal capitals in terms of what it does in combat.
But they are taking away my drones.
Sunviking wrote:Hi,
I disagree with the OP.
Jump Freighters are not overpowered - there is nothing to stop one getting popped before it aligns to warp to the gate to highsec.
Quite honestly, it is one of the only things that enables small alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.
If you nerf Jump Freighters, you merely slow down trade in EVE, increasing the cost of everything.
Just because a bunch of pirates and big alliances don't like the fact it gives people a good chance to avoid getting killed, doesn't mean they should be nerfed. Their cost more than justifies their capabilities.
If Jump Freighters get nerfed, then we may as well get rid of T3 Interdiction Nullifier subsystems and Covops Cloaking Devices, for the same reason.
- Sun
Assuming you have a fleet ready and waiting and know where the JF is going to show up, then, yes, you can maybe kill it. But if it jumps to docking range on a station, it will dock right after session change.
JFs also allow large alliances to maintain a foothold in nullsec.
Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.
The nullifier and cloak don't combine with game mechanics to make ships that use them invulnerable as with jump drive and docking range cynos. |
Tasiv Deka
The Baseborn Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:47:00 -
[112] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:
Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.
thats so wrong i dont even know where to start.
yes most people arent going to spend large amounts of money for a ship that doesnt do anything but at the same time no one is going to sell a ship for peanuts when it is useful. basically what im trying to say is that the two go hand in hand the capability is justified by the cost (ie only those that work for it should have it) and the cost is justified by the capability (yes you have to really work for it but then you get rewarded)
so stop arguing cost because here is the thing it is as big a factor in this game as anything else. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 21:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
Tasiv Deka wrote:Centra Spike wrote:
Cost should never be a justification for a ships capability.
thats so wrong i dont even know where to start. yes most people arent going to spend large amounts of money for a ship that doesnt do anything but at the same time no one is going to sell a ship for peanuts when it is useful. basically what im trying to say is that the two go hand in hand the capability is justified by the cost (ie only those that work for it should have it) and the cost is justified by the capability (yes you have to really work for it but then you get rewarded) so stop arguing cost because here is the thing it is as big a factor in this game as anything else.
So my 100b ISK Avatar should be able to own ~300 350m battleships solo, right? |
Emizeko Chai
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 00:28:00 -
[114] - Quote
I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 01:44:00 -
[115] - Quote
Emizeko Chai wrote:I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please. You should tell Centra how you guys kill JFs so he can stop feeling so ineffectual.
|
Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 03:45:00 -
[116] - Quote
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Emizeko Chai wrote:I find this thread very entertaining. Keep posting, please. You should tell Centra how you guys kill JFs so he can stop feeling so ineffectual.
We will it. Well, that, and the small shrine to xMartok next to my desk might have something to do with it. It's total metagaming, I know.
|
Jiska Ensa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
OK. I've read a fair bit of this threadnoguht and I'm seeing a pattern here:
"Jump freighters are overpowered because they can jump from a station to a station, warp to a gate and jump, blah blah."
The issue here is not with jump freighters. It's with cyno's. What would happen if you did to cynos like they did to smartbombs? You could only light them say 10 km from a station's docking radius. Now dreads, carriers, and rorquals are going to start dying by the thousands as well. But this opens the "docking games" can of worms...why should it be possible to agress/use targetted modules within docking range? How about triage carriers must move 5km from the station to rep their buddies :)
And on the topic of "invulnerable logistics," take a look at blocade runners. Unless you're really unlucky, and the pirates have set up a bajillion cans aroudn a gate to decloak you, you're going to make it in low-sec and high-sec 100% of the time. I routinely transport billions of isk in a viator, during wars, through gate-camps, etc. Why should these ships be invulerable of jump freighers aren't?
And let's go a step further. Let's say freighters can't use jump bridges (either pos-based or titan-based), so they ahve to travel the low and null sec pipes to get places.
My point in all this is that if you start talking about a relatively minor issue (jump freighters) you need to consider ALL the connecting issues. Cynos and jump drives in particular, station docking, titan bridging, blocade runners, and other such issues are on the table as well.
Another thing: the comparision between supercapitals and jump freighters is biased and frankly unfair. Jump freighters can't hurt you when if the enemy cynos them on top of your fleet. They can't sit there and obliterate your entire fleet systematically while you barely whittle away at their EHP. Jump freighters are not supercaps. They are, at most, the capital version of freighters, same as the Rorqual is the capital version of the Orca.
They fill the role of skill and isk-intensive "safe" logistics. They can still die. You can bubble them as they try to warp to a gate, bump them off station before they can dock, alpha them, or simly get lucky when the cyno pilot screws up.
tl;dr - balance jump freighers ONLY by completely overhauling cynos and docking mechanics, for ALL ships. |
Josefine Etrange
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:00:00 -
[118] - Quote
While I see the problem, there is a simple solution.
Empires start to get concerned about increasing capital activities at their boarders and start installing in every low sec system with a high sec gate Cynosural System Jammer.
Risk added, ship balanced. Fleet support needed. |
Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:21:00 -
[119] - Quote
I hope CCP comes through for us with JF nerfs (and further JB nerfs). It sounded like the nerfs had unanimous CSM support and I'd guess most people wouldn't mind some nerfs except those who own jump freighters and make their isk by seeding markets and making their alliance members pay through the nose for their goods. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:45:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:OK. I've read a fair bit of this threadnoguht and I'm seeing a pattern here:
"Jump freighters are overpowered because they can jump from a station to a station, warp to a gate and jump, blah blah."
The issue here is not with jump freighters. It's with cyno's. What would happen if you did to cynos like they did to smartbombs? You could only light them say 10 km from a station's docking radius. Now dreads, carriers, and rorquals are going to start dying by the thousands as well. But this opens the "docking games" can of worms...why should it be possible to agress/use targetted modules within docking range? How about triage carriers must move 5km from the station to rep their buddies :)
And on the topic of "invulnerable logistics," take a look at blocade runners. Unless you're really unlucky, and the pirates have set up a bajillion cans aroudn a gate to decloak you, you're going to make it in low-sec and high-sec 100% of the time. I routinely transport billions of isk in a viator, during wars, through gate-camps, etc. Why should these ships be invulerable of jump freighers aren't?
And let's go a step further. Let's say freighters can't use jump bridges (either pos-based or titan-based), so they ahve to travel the low and null sec pipes to get places.
My point in all this is that if you start talking about a relatively minor issue (jump freighters) you need to consider ALL the connecting issues. Cynos and jump drives in particular, station docking, titan bridging, blocade runners, and other such issues are on the table as well.
Another thing: the comparision between supercapitals and jump freighters is biased and frankly unfair. Jump freighters can't hurt you when if the enemy cynos them on top of your fleet. They can't sit there and obliterate your entire fleet systematically while you barely whittle away at their EHP. Jump freighters are not supercaps. They are, at most, the capital version of freighters, same as the Rorqual is the capital version of the Orca.
They fill the role of skill and isk-intensive "safe" logistics. They can still die. You can bubble them as they try to warp to a gate, bump them off station before they can dock, alpha them, or simly get lucky when the cyno pilot screws up.
tl;dr - balance jump freighers ONLY by completely overhauling cynos and docking mechanics, for ALL ships.
I would welcome changes to lighting cyno fields within docking range of stations. Or maybe if you light it too close you just spawn further away, similar to the POS shield cyno change.
Blockade Runners are hard to kill, yes, but jumping through a gate and cloaking is no where near the same as jumping to a cyno in dock range.
I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital. They move so much stuff with so little effort that disrupting an alliance's logistic capability is next to impossible. |
|
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:13:00 -
[121] - Quote
Very interesting, but to the OP, here is the link to the ship you seem to not understand.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Anshar
See the pretty picture that show's the gold 2 in the upper left hand corner signifying it IS a T2 ship?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Obelisk
See the pretty picture? The ships look exactly the same. A few of there stats are the exact same. Mass and Volume.
The developers of this game say this IS a T2 ship. Not a suppercap. Get over it. |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1015
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:32:00 -
[122] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Blockade Runners are hard to kill, yes, but jumping through a gate and cloaking is no where near the same as jumping to a cyno in dock range.
how on earth could someone get a ship from within docking range to outside docking range in 30s
this is really a problem an Elite PvP alliance should be able to solve |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1015
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital.
in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital
in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital
in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital
in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital
you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" |
Kulsto Ribro
Deep Space Legacy REN0VATI0
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
If JFs are supercaps, give them a supercap nerf. Remove their drone bays and make them unable to fire their DD on subcap ships.
Seriously, I too would be excited to see support fleets escort supercaps and freighters on longs and dangerous trips. It could be fun... the 2-3 first times ? Then it would just be a PITA for the rest of your evelife. Not every corp / alliance can field said support fleet everytime they need to travel. Even those that do have better uses for their PVP pilot's time. And as stated before, with current game mechanics, the support fleet could not do much to prevent JFs to be alpha by a large enough blob.
JFs may be OP but nerfing them could make daily logistic a nightmare, keeping even more alliances away from null. |
Carrier incoming Hotdrop
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
wine wine wine you people are killing this game, things arent balanced this, things are overpowered that you peeps just shut up and stop complaining and just enjoy the game as it is |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:Very interesting, but to the OP, here is the link to the ship you seem to not understand. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AnsharSee the pretty picture that show's the gold 2 in the upper left hand corner signifying it IS a T2 ship? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ObeliskSee the pretty picture? The ships look exactly the same. A few of there stats are the exact same. Mass and Volume. The developers of this game say this IS a T2 ship. Not a suppercap. Get over it.
A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.
Weaselior wrote: how on earth could someone get a ship from within docking range to outside docking range in 30s
this is really a problem an Elite PvP alliance should be able to solve
How indeed, I defer to your vastly superior knowledge, my alliance is currently cowering in lowsec awaiting the impending Supercapital nerf.
http://i.imgur.com/sFV4q.jpg
Please tell me how you would bump this Anshar off this station.
Weaselior wrote: in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital
in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital
in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital
in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital
you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role"
No, none of those ships is streets ahead of it's next lower tier, with the possible exception of the Dramiel. You do remember how a Dramiel couldn't track my Avatar at 20km?
Kulsto Ribro wrote:If JFs are supercaps, give them a supercap nerf. Remove their drone bays and make them unable to fire their DD on subcap ships.
Seriously, I too would be excited to see support fleets escort supercaps and freighters on longs and dangerous trips. It could be fun... the 2-3 first times ? Then it would just be a PITA for the rest of your evelife. Not every corp / alliance can field said support fleet everytime they need to travel. Even those that do have better uses for their PVP pilot's time. And as stated before, with current game mechanics, the support fleet could not do much to prevent JFs to be alpha by a large enough blob.
JFs may be OP but nerfing them could make daily logistic a nightmare, keeping even more alliances away from null.
Just because something won't be fun doesn't mean it should not be addressed. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:54:00 -
[127] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital.
in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" Except....none of those are capitals, other then the Rorq. Sure, we can re-classify that as a supercap too if you want to consider Orcas as proper caps. |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:55:00 -
[128] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital.
in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" Except....none of those are capitals, other then the Rorq. Sure, we can re-classify that as a supercap too if you want to consider Orcas as proper caps.
look we're clearly not using words to mean their actual meaning given we are classifying jump freighters as supercapitals |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:56:00 -
[129] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote: No, none of those ships is streets ahead of it's next lower tier, with the possible exception of the Dramiel. You do remember how a Dramiel couldn't track my Avatar at 20km?
so we're agreed the dramiel is a supercap then? |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:58:00 -
[130] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:How indeed, I defer to your vastly superior knowledge, my alliance is currently cowering in lowsec awaiting the impending Supercapital nerf. http://i.imgur.com/sFV4q.jpgPlease tell me how you would bump this Anshar off this station.
with something big, duh |
|
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 02:18:00 -
[131] - Quote
in all seriousness, here is why you are wrong:
the problem with supercaps are not merely they are too good. it's that they eliminate a great deal of content from the game due to the overwhelming superiority of a supercap blob against anything else, reducing the types of fun gameplay possible
jump freighters do not: it's not a problem the jump freighter is much better than any other way of moving things because moving things isn't supposed to be a rocks paper scissors thing
jump freighters, by enabling 0.0 logistics, enable more gameplay than their absence would. the same is not true of supercaps, or other fotm pvp ships, and this is the fundamental difference between the two
lets say they come out with superhulk, that mines 10x as fast as a normal hulk. is this a problem? no: it merely increases the length of the "mining grind". every type of mining ship is inferior to the hulk or mack, but that's not a problem: mining is just a grind
when it comes to pvp, however, that is a problem. when a fleet of supercaps blaps anything it faces except a better supercap fleet, then there is less gameplay possible, because PvP isn't a grind, its a competition and competitions are not fun when there's a single correct strategy. rocks paper scissors is no fun if rock beats anything but a bigger rock
so in essence, no matter how much you complain - even if you happen to be correct - about how good jump freighters are at their role, you utterly miss the point when you compare them to supercaps. 0.0 logistics being easy and effective leads to better wars, more types of gameplay, and more fun. logistics being a pain in the ass does not |
Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:19:00 -
[132] - Quote
The problems (and I use the term loosely) with JFs are not that JFs are OP, it's a combination of bad game mechanics and, most of all, buggy game mechanics that prevent more of these from dying.
JFs ply their role with plausible realism. Nerfing those properties to make up for deficiencies elsewhere will not solve anything. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 05:33:00 -
[133] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:in all seriousness, here is why you are wrong:
the problem with supercaps are not merely they are too good. it's that they eliminate a great deal of content from the game due to the overwhelming superiority of a supercap blob against anything else, reducing the types of fun gameplay possible
jump freighters do not: it's not a problem the jump freighter is much better than any other way of moving things because moving things isn't supposed to be a rocks paper scissors thing
jump freighters, by enabling 0.0 logistics, enable more gameplay than their absence would. the same is not true of supercaps, or other fotm pvp ships, and this is the fundamental difference between the two
lets say they come out with superhulk, that mines 10x as fast as a normal hulk. is this a problem? no: it merely increases the length of the "mining grind". every type of mining ship is inferior to the hulk or mack, but that's not a problem: mining is just a grind
when it comes to pvp, however, that is a problem. when a fleet of supercaps blaps anything it faces except a better supercap fleet, then there is less gameplay possible, because PvP isn't a grind, its a competition and competitions are not fun when there's a single correct strategy. rocks paper scissors is no fun if rock beats anything but a bigger rock
so in essence, no matter how much you complain - even if you happen to be correct - about how good jump freighters are at their role, you utterly miss the point when you compare them to supercaps. 0.0 logistics being easy and effective leads to better wars, more types of gameplay, and more fun. logistics being a pain in the ass does not
Disrupting supply lines used to be possible before the introduction of the Jump Freighter. Moving things should never be so simple and easy. The reward of the JF far outweighs its risk.
Is market manipulation not PVP? Is corporate theft not PVP? Logistics or the denial of logistics is equally valid in this game as a form of PVP. |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1030
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:00:00 -
[134] - Quote
aargh the stupid forums ate my post
i'll redo later |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:27:00 -
[135] - Quote
crapthread
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:50:00 -
[136] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:crapthread
crappost |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:14:00 -
[137] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:aargh the stupid forums ate my post
i'll redo later
Its best just to give up. He will never understand the difference between a T2 ship, and a suppercap. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:32:00 -
[138] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:Weaselior wrote:aargh the stupid forums ate my post
i'll redo later Its best just to give up. He will never understand the difference between a T2 ship, and a suppercap. I want a suppercap. Sounds tasty. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:36:00 -
[139] - Quote
Will never have one so who cares? |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1034
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:01:00 -
[140] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:[Disrupting supply lines used to be possible before the introduction of the Jump Freighter. Moving things should never be so simple and easy. The reward of the JF far outweighs its risk.
Is market manipulation not PVP? Is corporate theft not PVP? Logistics or the denial of logistics is equally valid in this game as a form of PVP.
ok in essence, you've completely missed the point. your argument relies on appealing to random design principles you favor, but without a good explanation of why those are good design principles and why your solution would improve the game
the essence of logistics is space work. it's moving things from point a to point b, in an incredibly boring way. one of EVE's greatest flaws has been the amount of space work 0.0 requires, and the sole good thing about Dominion was they recognized that and started cutting away space work (tower fueling was replaced by spending money).
logistics is not optional: ccp has designed EVE in such a way that 0.0 simply requires massive amounts of material to be brought in from highsec. it's not a situation where it's optional. So, it's merely a question of how easy to interdict it should be. That's not a question of relative balance like for ship PvP (a point you clearly miss when you discuss market manipulation and corporate theft), where the important thing is making sure no one strategy predominates over all others. The reason for that is simple: if the correct answer in all cases is X for what is supposed to be a rock/paper/scissors sort of game, it's boring. you bring X, I bring x, whichever one of us brought more X wins. In contrast, logistic interdiction isn't a rock/paper/scissors sort of thing: its merely a question of how hard it should be. does it get through, or not. Now, you're able to interdict logistics right now: you can bubble and camp the destination 0.0 system. But that's hard, and you don't want to do it. Your solution is that the logistics people should have to do considerably more space-work (and much worse space-work: merely sitting in place to ensure nothing interesting happens). in essence, you want the game made worse, but in a way that happens to benefit you. escorting freighters is horrible gameplay. if you wanted to design logistics interdiction that is easier you need a system that isn't ****, and you system is ****. it requires horrible unpleasant gameplay. moreover, logistics are as hard to interdict as they are because due to CCP's design they are so vital, and therefore should not be easily interdictable. i get that as a non-spacholding alliance you want the game tilted your way, but you're not actually offering any good design reasons why that should be the case. it's essentially a "i want the candy give me the candy WAAAAAAAAAA" argument.
there is no good reason to design EVE in such a way to require more space work: it is a bad design, it doesn't make the game better in any way. jump freighters are a good balance right now: if you are alert and do everything perfectly, you survive. if you slip up in any way and get caught, you're dead: they're a high-wire act. making them easily killable simply starves 0.0 of any real gameplay: it will mean you simply must operate close to empire and probably just out of torrinos or another highsec/0.0 link. it's bad gameplay, and your sole argument for it is that "i want it give me it". you offer no reasons why the game is improved in your model, merely that you think you should get your way and that it should be much harder to move materials to 0.0
it's a bad argument, it has no good gameplay effects, and it's the height of "balance the game by giving me what i want". why supercaps needed to be nerfed was obvious and can be made in "this is how the game is improved by the nerf" ways, and has been repeatedly. you've offered no reasons to explain in similar terms why the game is better with your model. it's a lazy, whiny argument based on no good arguments of how it would actually improve the game |
|
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1034
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
to make a long story short: you can disrupt logistics, you're just lazy and want it made easier. if you want it made easier, make some actual arguments about why that improves the game, and for extra points come up with a mechanic that does not involve space work, the last refuge of the completely incompetent designer |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1037
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:07:00 -
[142] - Quote
also when you ignore my post to quote the summary please at least avoid making points that I directly addressed and explained why they were wrong in the long post |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
lmao sounds like someone doesn't want their i-win button nerfed. |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:22:00 -
[144] - Quote
you can't nerf the post button |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:24:00 -
[145] - Quote
Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:03:00 -
[147] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:March rabbit wrote:Centra Spike wrote:I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself? fully agree No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced. well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now......
but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:00:00 -
[148] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Centra Spike wrote:March rabbit wrote:Centra Spike wrote:I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself? fully agree No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced. well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now...... but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships Where the idea comes from has no bearing on the truthfulness of it. |
Gulnar Metesur
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 06:38:00 -
[149] - Quote
PL tears best tears.
Your biggest issue seems to be about JFs being invulnerable in some situations( ie. when undocking). The issue here isn't the JF, it's game mechanics, docking ranges, cynos, whatever you want to cry about.
Keep the tears coming. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 08:58:00 -
[150] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai.
No, I haven't;
And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 12:09:00 -
[151] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. No, I haven't; And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is! |
Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 13:48:00 -
[152] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:No, I haven't; And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!
From RFC 2616 Section 9.5:
RFC 2616 wrote: The POST method is used to request that the origin server accept the entity enclosed in the request as a new subordinate of the resource identified by the Request-URI in the Request-Line. POST is designed to allow a uniform method to cover the following functions:
- Annotation of existing resources;
- Posting a message to a bulletin board, newsgroup, mailing list, or similar group of articles;
- Providing a block of data, such as the result of submitting a form, to a data-handling process;
- Extending a database through an append operation.
The actual function performed by the POST method is determined by the server and is usually dependent on the Request-URI. The posted entity is subordinate to that URI in the same way that a file is subordinate to a directory containing it, a news article is subordinate to a newsgroup to which it is posted, or a record is subordinate to a database.
The action performed by the POST method might not result in a resource that can be identified by a URI. In this case, either 200 (OK) or 204 (No Content) is the appropriate response status, depending on whether or not the response includes an entity that describes the result.
If a resource has been created on the origin server, the response SHOULD be 201 (Created) and contain an entity which describes the status of the request and refers to the new resource, and a Location header (see section 14.30).
Responses to this method are not cacheable, unless the response includes appropriate Cache-Control or Expires header fields. However, the 303 (See Other) response can be used to direct the user agent to retrieve a cacheable resource.
POST requests MUST obey the message transmission requirements set out in section 8.2.
See section 15.1.3 for security considerations.
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 14:40:00 -
[153] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. No, I haven't; And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is!
I thought I was a pubbie? Does this mean I levelled up?
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:10:00 -
[154] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:steave435 wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Look, OP:
You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it.
Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. No, I haven't; And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt Lol, what a noob, doesn't know what a POST is! I thought I was a pubbie? Does this mean I levelled up? They're not exclusive, you can be both |
Revii Lagoon
The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:42:00 -
[155] - Quote
To my knowledge, Jump Freighters do promote trade in null sec, but with very specific things. Without them, carrying large quantities of goods to and from null sec is incredibly difficult due to the limitations of a carrier and significantly less cargo capacity of a Rorqual. Another thing to consider is who is actually using Jump Freighters. I trade in null sec, I trade ships, modules, ammo, all sorts of things, but I can do this without the use of a Jump Freighter because I have a carrier. The Jump mechanics I use are exactly the same as I would a Jump Freighter, jump to stations, dock up, undock, jump ect. But I cannot trade in items that take up large quantities of space such as fuel, which is one of the major life bloods of any null sec alliance.
Basically, majority of traders would use a carrier for trading due to its flexibility, I mean it has good offensive and defensive capabilities, and it can be used to bring just about anything to null sec except fuel and vast quantities of minerals for super caps. Sure you cannot use gates or travel to high sec, but that is only a small issue. If anything the carrier should be nerfed in terms of logistics....
Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall. |
Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:00:00 -
[156] - Quote
Revii Lagoon wrote:Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall.
The 'average' trader rarely if ever has the need to transit out of high sec space, though, and as such would of course be better served by a T1 freighter should their capacity needs reach that point. But this is just me being nitpicky. Actually, come to think of it, the agility bonus that every JF gets is quite nice - sometimes if you have more than what a indy can haul, but still < 333k m3 to move down the pipe, it make sense to use your Anshar over your Obelisk just for the time savings in that regard.
As an aside...
I used to think the same about cost being a limiting factor being that the window sticker on any given JF is (currently) around 5.6bn ISK, which makes only Moms and Titans the only more expensive ships in the game.
But after killing a slew of these over the past few months, there have been several occasions where I've blown one up, and - this is no exaggeration - 30 minutes to an hour later the same toon is seen in a new JF. I kidd you not.
Billion is the new Million in this game. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:20:00 -
[157] - Quote
Revii Lagoon wrote:To my knowledge, Jump Freighters do promote trade in null sec, but with very specific things. Without them, carrying large quantities of goods to and from null sec is incredibly difficult due to the limitations of a carrier and significantly less cargo capacity of a Rorqual. Another thing to consider is who is actually using Jump Freighters. I trade in null sec, I trade ships, modules, ammo, all sorts of things, but I can do this without the use of a Jump Freighter because I have a carrier. The Jump mechanics I use are exactly the same as I would a Jump Freighter, jump to stations, dock up, undock, jump ect. But I cannot trade in items that take up large quantities of space such as fuel, which is one of the major life bloods of any null sec alliance.
Basically, majority of traders would use a carrier for trading due to its flexibility, I mean it has good offensive and defensive capabilities, and it can be used to bring just about anything to null sec except fuel and vast quantities of minerals for super caps. Sure you cannot use gates or travel to high sec, but that is only a small issue. If anything the carrier should be nerfed in terms of logistics....
Normally I wouldn't say this, but the price of a Jump Freighter seems to be one of the balancing factors in it. It is the only ship I would ever even consider saying that. For its hefty price tag, it doesn't provide a whole lot. It is more useful as an alliance asset rather than a personal asset. Sure jumping from high sec is slightly beneficial, but for an average trader, the price tag of it does not really justify the benefits of something you can already get out of a carrier, which has much more usability overall.
You are right, the jump mechanics are a major issue, but only a part of my argument against JFs. The hauling space of a carrier vs. a JF is massive, as is moving all that stuff to a carrier in the first place. Now it's not so much the cargo size of a JF, it's that they can haul so much finished stuff. I mean a packaged BS is 10x smaller than a unpackaged one, what the hell?
Price can't be a factor in balancing something because there is so much ISK in the game, CCP originally thought that Titans would be limited alliance assets because no one could make that much ISK. I made enough ISK in one month to afford my Avatar and Aeon and I am well on my way to a second Titan just by sitting on three tech moons, ironically abusing JF mechanics to do so. |
Techno General
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 14:44:00 -
[158] - Quote
JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:10:00 -
[159] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:
Price can't be a factor in balancing something because there is so much ISK in the game, CCP originally thought that Titans would be limited alliance assets because no one could make that much ISK. I made enough ISK in one month to afford my Avatar and Aeon and I am well on my way to a second Titan just by sitting on three tech moons, ironically abusing JF mechanics to do so.
How about just get rid of all jump drives?? then you can gate camp them with your Titans. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:19:00 -
[160] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:You are right, the jump mechanics are a major issue, but only a part of my argument against JFs. The hauling space of a carrier vs. a JF is massive, as is moving all that stuff to a carrier in the first place. Now it's not so much the cargo size of a JF, it's that they can haul so much finished stuff. I mean a packaged BS is 10x smaller than a unpackaged one, what the hell?
didn't you already give up on this stupid argument when you were completely unable to respond to my earlier post
put up or shut up, son |
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:17:00 -
[161] - Quote
Techno General wrote:JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed.
This changes nothing at all.
The single point someone patient enough can ever try to address is the ability of jumping directly from high to low/null, every thing else is BS.
Most moved stuff in null s done by carriers, rorquals you know why? -4 times cheaper and same job (but can't jump in or from high)
So where is the problem?
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 11:16:00 -
[162] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Techno General wrote:JF's cant jump while in dock range/session change. Problem fixed. This changes nothing at all. The single point someone patient enough can ever try to address is the ability of jumping directly from high to low/null, every thing else is BS. Most moved stuff in null s done by carriers, rorquals you know why? -4 times cheaper and same job (but can't jump in or from high) So where is the problem? Most PVP ships flown in nullsec are sub caps or at most regular caps, you know why? They're cheaper then the supercaps, that are getting nerfed since price is apparently not a balancing factor. A JF can move 30-35 times more stuff then a carrier if you count only regular cargo, or 3 times as much if you include the SMA (SMA size cut by 10 for this comparison since assembled size of a ship is roughly 10 times higher then packaged), while not requiring you to haul stuff between high sec and the ship. Consider that again. That is a HUUUUUUGE benefit. You can jump it straight out from Jita rather then having to make 30+ trips in a blockade runner (if you go with the safest method, which is still nowhere near as safe as not having to pass gates at all) to get it to your carrier/Rorq and then making multiple jumps from your low sec pick up point, and that's assuming you're even able to use a blockade runner at all, which you can't if it's a BC or larger ship. To bring the 7 BS a Rhea can hold to low sec, you'd need 4-7 trips with an Orca (can't remember the exact max cargo for it, can it hold 2 BS at a time when fitted and rigged for max cargo with max skills?), fly them all there manually 1 at a time or use a freighter. After that, you need 4 trips back and forth between your home and your low sec staging system to carry them all there.
So to compare the time lines for a JF and a Carrier trying to move 18 BS from Jita, carrier goes with the fastest but highest risk method available, using a freighter to haul it to low sec. The low sec jump off point is assumed to be only 3 jumps away, aka the closest low sec available. Destination is assumed to be 1 mid point out, this should be about right for most places compared to its closest hub: 00m 00s: Both undock from Jita. 00m 05s: Freighter warps to an insta and starts aligning towards its first gate. JF just wait for session change to expire, holding its invulnerability. 00m 30s: JF jumps out to the first mid point and doesn't move, thus remaining invulnerable. 00m 45s: Freighter enters warp to the first gate 01m 00s: JF docks for cap 01m 30s: JF exits station, keeps invulnerability by not moving 02m 00s: JF jumps to destination, freighter arrives at the first gate. He jumps on contact and begins to align to the second gate. 02m 30s: JF docks up at destination, unloads the BS and load up moon goo, loot and minerals etc. 02m 45s: Freighter enters warp 03m 00s: JF undocks for the second trip 03m 30s: JF jumps to the midpoint 04m 00s: JF docks up in midpoint, freighter arrives on the second gate. He jumps on contact and starts aligning to the third gate 04m 30s: JF undocks 04m 45s: Freighter enters warp 05m 00s: JF jumps to low sec staging point, he wants to take no risks so he holds his invulnerability until his session change has expired 05m 30s: JF begins aligning to the first high sec gate 06m 00s: JF enters warp (JFs get an agility bonus, so while the freighter takes about 45 seconds to warp, the JF takes 30), freighter arrives at the third gate and jumps on contact to low sec and starts aligning 06m 45s: Freighter enters warp 07m 15s: JF arrive at the first gate. He jumps on contacts and starts to align 07m 45s: Freighter arrives at the station and docks up. The BS are unloaded, assembled and 2 of them are put in the carriers SMA. This also marks the hub-staging point travel time, which will be used later. JF enters warp to second gate. 08m 15s: Carrier undocks. This marks the start of the carriers round trip time from the low sec staging system to destination and back. 08m 45s: Carrier jumps to mid point 09m 00s: JF arrives at the second gate, he jumps on contact and starts aligning to Jita gate 09m 15s: Carrier docks up 09m 30s: JF enters warp 09m 45s: Carrier undocks 10m 15s: Carrier jumps to destination 10m 45s: Carrier docks up at destination and unloads the 2 BS, and loads up on...pretty much nothing, you don't need to move ships from 0.0 to high sec, they go the other way. JF arrives at Jita gate, jumps on contact and aligns for station 11m 15s: Carrier undocks 11m 45s: Carrier jumps to mid point 12m 00s: JF docks up in Jita and unloads the moon goo/loot/minerals 12m 15s: Carrier docks in the mid point 12m 30s: JF undocks from Jita and restarts the cycle. This is the total time for a round trip. Since the JF needs to make a total of 3 trips, it will complete the haul in 12,5m * 3 = 37,5m. Since that is established, I will no longer include the JF in the time line. 12m 45s: Carrier undocks from the midpoint 13m 15s: Carrier jumps to the low sec staging system 13m 45s: Carrier docks up in the low sec staging system. It loads up on 2 new BS. 14m 15s: Carrier undocks. This marks the end of the first round trip from the low sec staging to destination, which took 6 minutes to complete.
Continued in the next post.. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 11:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
At this point, we have all the data needed to calculate final haul time: The JF takes 12m 30s per trip, and requires 3 trips, giving a final time of 37m 30s. During these trips, he hauls roughly an extra 100k m3 of random stuff to the destination (an Obelisk can handle exactly 18 BS with its 900k m3 cargo at freighter 4 while an Anshar takes 6 BS per trip with 37.5k m3 left over) and about 1m m3 of moon goo/minerals/loot that the carrier can't carry back to Jita. The carrier+freighter combo takes 7m 45s to travel trough gates to and from the hub, and it has to do 2 of those trips in order to reset for an another go. That is a total of 15m 30s. On top of that, it has to complete 9 round trips with the carrier to move all the BS, each taking 6 minutes. That is a total of 45 minutes added on top of the previous 15m 30s for a total of 60m 30s. On top of that, he had to take a significant risk bringing his freighter trough a gate to low sec and use a cyno 36 times in short succession compared to the 12 a JF needs, which causes delays when a cyno is killed since you, unlike the JF, don't have an another 13 minutes until you need it again, you only have half that, and during that time you're actively jumping around rather then being stuck in a long warp between gates that you can use to focus on your cyno alts and get them new ships. As if that wasn't enough, the JF can decrease its round trip time even further, either by using the same method of bringing a freighter to low sec and then jumping from there, meaning it only takes 15m 30s plus 3 round trips of 6m for a total of 18m+15m 30s = 33m 30s. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 11:44:00 -
[164] - Quote
Thx Steave, this is exactly what I wanted to read, not just some childish comments.
You've just pointed exactly the single advantage this ship has, the ability to jump directly from high-->null
Now should CCP cut that off? I don't think so, train for that ship is already a big pain in the arse to do, the price tag of 5Billions for a ship just to move stuff is already twice the price of regular carrier full t2 fit+drones/fighters, it might has well deserve specific abilities.
Catch and kill such ships should require a lot more stuff than just point it at the first gate and gank it easily just by overheating your oversized guns (aka BC t3) and hit F1
I don't really see it has a problem but has a solution, a very expensive and skill training solution for a defenceless ship who might well have some advantages over the regular versions. If you put enough effort you can catch them, but you need to put proportional effort, sound good for me. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 12:37:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Thx Steave, this is exactly what I wanted to read, not just some childish comments.
You've just pointed exactly the single advantage this ship has, the ability to jump directly from high-->null No...I guess you completely missed the part where the JF never took any risks while the carrier took a huge one and that both ships have a round trip time of 6 minutes once the goods is in low sec, even if the jump from high sec part was nerfed, but only needs to take 3 of those trips for a total of 18 mins while the carrier needs 9 trips for a total of 54 minutes (got that the other way around in the post, will edit soon, this makes the JFs advantage even bigger). That is 3 times as long, and even then it's limited to almost only ships rather then anything like the JF, providing a significant advantage for hauling stuff back on the return trip.
Tanya Powers wrote:Now should CCP cut that off? I don't think so, train for that ship is already a big pain in the arse to do, the price tag of 5Billions for a ship just to move stuff is already twice the price of regular carrier full t2 fit+drones/fighters, it might has well deserve specific abilities. Yes, ofcourse they should. So SP and isk ARE balancing factors? Let's scrap the supercap nerf then.
Tanya Powers wrote:Catch and kill such ships should require a lot more stuff than just point it at the first gate and gank it easily just by overheating your oversized guns (aka BC t3) and hit F1
I don't really see it has a problem but has a solution, a very expensive and skill training solution for a defenceless ship who might well have some advantages over the regular versions. Some advantages, sure. The supercap version of a capital should indeed have benefits. Properly adjusting it to its role as a supercap would make sure of that, it would take away the ability to use gates and dock, while giving the advantages of a hugely increased hauling capability and EW immunity so you'd need (heavy) interdictors to tackle it. The tank increase compared to its sub-cap brothers are already huge, but I wouldn't mind a small increase to it. After that, rather then simply out-classing all other haulers, they'd complement them. Bring all those regular haulers (RL equivalent of trucks) and use them to bring stuff from high sec/the station to the JF (the RL equivalent of a big train/ship), which then handles moving it over long distances, and at the end of that the regular haulers step in again and move it to high sec/station. Just like the supercap nerf is meant to make sure supercaps never obsoletes sub caps, this does the same for the normal haulers. You need the big heavy hitters/haulers with jump drives to deliver a hard punch/big haul somewhere else far away quickly, and you need the sub caps to help them do it by providing defense against hostiles that might attack it and keep it supplied with what it needs to do its job.
Tanya Powers wrote:If you put enough effort you can catch them, but you need to put proportional effort, sound good for me. No, you seriously can't unless the pilot is a ******, and ship balancing needs to be based on how smart people use the ships. You are completely invulnerable to anything except a VERY big bump (and I haven't tested it, but I think anyone trying to bump you during your 1 minute invulnerability will actually just fly trough you, just like when you try to bump a ship that just undocked), which needs to be strong enough to get the ship out of dock range within 30 seconds of the jump in. Take off whatever time it takes you to undock the Mach after the JF gets in, and then get lined up and up to speed and then for that speed to carry you there and you simply will NOT make it, even if you manage to hit it (unlikely), it will not pass out of dock range before the session change expires and the pilot can dock back up again, especially if he used a good spot on the opposite side of the station compared to where you undock at. Trying to warp something in on the cyno will fail in a similar way, a significant part of his session change will expire while you're warping, and then you have a very short distance to it to get up to speed for the bump in, so you'd need to burn away and then turn around, using up too much time, or warp at range...which will either put you on the side of the station, or inside it so you can't move anywhere except the random direction the station decides to bump you out in. Finally, the last remaining option is trying to put up a cyno and jumping in a significant amount of your own caps, but that, too, takes you some time to warp, some more for the friendly caps to hit the jump button, then more for them to actually appear in there. By the time they do, a very small amount of seconds, at most, will be left on the session change, and even on large move ops with 50-100 carriers/JFs/dreads etc it's rare for those caps to bump out of dock range before they can dock, and that's when they have to wait 30 seconds after the bump rather then at most 10 before they can dock. If any of these things are already on grid, the pilot would fall under the ****** category if he lights his cyno and jumps in anyway.
JFs do die, but only when the pilot jumps to low sec trough a gate, or jump to a POS with a cyno alt that doesn't have the webs and scan res needed to web it into warp before anything but a stealth bomber can even get there if it was off grid, or start locking if it was cloaked, and even then it should have enough scan res to apply the webs before the bomber can apply point. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 14:16:00 -
[166] - Quote
OK, I don't have, and don't think I will ever have and jump capable ship, but to me you just described the game mechanics of how jumping works. Dose every ship have the session change timer or just this one?
So what if it never took a risk, just means smart people are use it., and it carries 1/3 the cargo as the normal T1 freighter. So it needs to make 3 trips that the T1 freighter needs to make's to move the same amount of goods. Remember the jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a supper cap. You think it should be a supper cap? Well that tag goes on combat ships not non-combat ships (at least that is how I see it). If it became a supper cap the it would not have 1/3 the cargo capacity of its T1 variant. It should have 3 times it. 3 times the mass, and volume, not the exact same. charring cap. 218250ms for the JF, 750000ms for the freighter.
How do you nerf game mechanics?
Oh I was moving stuff around in my Orca last night. I don't have max skills for it, but I could not carry an out fitted battleship in it. Took up almost 100k more volume that the hanger will allow. Only 1 packaged one in it. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:45:00 -
[167] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:OK, I don't have, and don't think I will ever have and jump capable ship, but to me you just described the game mechanics of how jumping works. Dose every ship have the session change timer or just this one? So what if it never took a risk, just means smart people are use it., All do, and so what if supercaps can wipe the floor with sub caps, that just means smart people are using it.
thrulinn wrote:and it carries 1/3 the cargo as the normal T1 freighter. So it needs to make 3 trips that the T1 freighter needs to make's to move the same amount of goods. Yeah, but it aligns much faster, and the jump drive makes each trip take a VERY VERY tiny amount of time compared to using gates with the normal freighter. Cargo/trip is about a third, but cargo moved/minute is MANY times higher.
thrulinn wrote:Remember the jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a supper cap. I am aware that it is currently miss-labled as a T2 rather then super cap yes.
thrulinn wrote:You think it should be a supper cap? Well that tag goes on combat ships not non-combat ships (at least that is how I see it). If it became a supper cap the it would not have 1/3 the cargo capacity of its T1 variant. It should have 3 times it. 3 times the mass, and volume, not the exact same. charring cap. 218250ms for the JF, 750000ms for the freighter. Yeah, that sounds tasty... Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap.
thrulinn wrote:HOh I was moving stuff around in my Orca last night. I don't have max skills for it, but I could not carry an out fitted battleship in it. Took up almost 100k more volume that the hanger will allow. Only 1 packaged one in it. I just checked, and in theory an Orca CAN carry 2 repackaged BS, but it requires industrial command ships V and 2 low slot expanders in addition to 3 cargo rigs, 2 of them T2 (can't do more due to calibration). That gives a total size of 100 951 m3, but in practice, it can indeed only carry 1. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:36:00 -
[168] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:HOh I was moving stuff around in my Orca last night. I don't have max skills for it, but I could not carry an out fitted battleship in it. Took up almost 100k more volume that the hanger will allow. Only 1 packaged one in it. I just checked, and in theory an Orca CAN carry 2 repackaged BS, but it requires industrial command ships V and 2 low slot expanders in addition to 3 cargo rigs, 2 of them T2 (can't do more due to calibration). That gives a total size of 100 951 m3, but in practice, it can indeed only carry 1.[/quote]
I will check this when I get home, at work so I don't remember what I had in mine. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:03:00 -
[169] - Quote
steave435 wrote:thrulinn wrote:OK, I don't have, and don't think I will ever have and jump capable ship, but to me you just described the game mechanics of how jumping works. Dose every ship have the session change timer or just this one? So what if it never took a risk, just means smart people are use it., All do, and so what if supercaps can wipe the floor with sub caps, that just means smart people are using it. thrulinn wrote:and it carries 1/3 the cargo as the normal T1 freighter. So it needs to make 3 trips that the T1 freighter needs to make's to move the same amount of goods. Yeah, but it aligns much faster, and the jump drive makes each trip take a VERY VERY tiny amount of time compared to using gates with the normal freighter. Cargo/trip is about a third, but cargo moved/minute is MANY times higher. thrulinn wrote:Remember the jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a supper cap. I am aware that it is currently miss-labled as a T2 rather then super cap yes. thrulinn wrote:You think it should be a supper cap? Well that tag goes on combat ships not non-combat ships (at least that is how I see it). If it became a supper cap the it would not have 1/3 the cargo capacity of its T1 variant. It should have 3 times it. 3 times the mass, and volume, not the exact same. charring cap. 218250ms for the JF, 750000ms for the freighter. Yeah, that sounds tasty... Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap.
You have not made one single valid point as to why it is a supper cap! All it dose is jump, so what. It has to follow the exact same game mechanics every other jump ship has.
It losses 1/3 it cargo for it, that makes it SUPPER! Did every corp just game up its T1 freighter for THREE T2 jump freighters? So you can't gate camp them?
You and your main toon are the only ones that think it is a supper cap. What did CCP decide to call it a T2 ship just for fun? Just you can pretend its something else, so you can't gate camp them?
You and your main toon have not even made one single valid point about how to nerf something that is working as intended. What should they nerf the game mechanic's so you can gate camp them?
That is all you want right? You can't gate camp them so CCP should fix what is not broken for you! You don't know how to kill one so CCP should fix it for you!
You think its OP'd then make a valid point on how you change what is WORKING AS INTENDED. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
double post |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:16:00 -
[171] - Quote
still noticing a gaping lack of "how this change would improve eve gameplay" arguments and hopes that my post explaining why this is a moronic idea in detail will simply fade away |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:19:00 -
[172] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap.
are you brain-dead what's a zealot compared to whatever the base amarr cruiser is, a supercap omen? |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:30:00 -
[173] - Quote
and I should listen to my self and not bother to reply. He will never explain how this T2 ship is a supper cap, and has no idea how to fix game mechanics that are not broken. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:19:00 -
[174] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:steave435 wrote:Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap. are you brain-dead what's a zealot compared to whatever the base amarr cruiser is, a supercap omen? Super cap = super CAPITAL. Omen != capital -> Zealot is not a super CAPITAL Freighter = capital -> JF = super CAPITAL
thrulinn, read the thread, I went into detail about why they are supercaps earlier. Considering your posts and your name though, it's pretty obvious what you're doing, so I'll just ignore you. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:46:00 -
[175] - Quote
Start with outcomes.
My desired outcome is an EVE where industrial activity takes place closer to the economic and military machines that it feeds, i.e. industrial players need a reason to base in nullsec, and significant nullsec alliances need to be significant industrial powerhouses too.
But with the JFs as they are currently, it's far easier and safer to produce everything in highsec and then ship finished products hundred of lightyears to the far reaches of nullsec, than it is to produce those items in nullsec, near to where they are needed. As things are, there is no logical reason for industrialists to build things in nullsec, or for nullsec alliances to develop their industrial arms.
That, to me at least, is a bad state of affairs. The way to make it better is obvious: make it harder to move stuff from highsec to 0.0 via JFs, so it becomes more economical to build things closer to where they are needed.
What exactly needs changing about JFs to achieve this, I don't know for sure. One suggestion would be make JFs 'true' capitals, and unable to use jump gates (and therefore unable to enter highsec).
Whatever the case, developing a more distributed in-game economy demands that JFs are nerfed somewhat. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:07:00 -
[176] - Quote
Every single big alliance has their major industry in high sec, each and every one of them use jump freighters to move stuff from both sides null/high sec and all profit from this.
The same always rabble about high sec miners but I don't see that much mining in their belts except a lot of rating "ships" (notice I haven't used BOT instead)
The same rabble rabble "bot" funny story when every one knows where the biggest bot users are.
Yesterday high sec miners "are" a problem, today is jump freighters, tomorrow will be jita? (no they will not have the balls for that)
Back to topic: working has intended, just like high sec ganking and insurance reimbursement for gank ships |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:15:00 -
[177] - Quote
steave435 wrote:super cap = super CAPITAL. Omen != capital -> Zealot is not a super CAPITAL Freighter = capital -> JF = super CAPITAL
wrong, moron
supercarrier and titan are t1 ships, of a class larger than capital class, that are too big to dock. ship classes are, in order, frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship/capital/supercapital
a jump freighter is a t2 capital, not a supercap
a zealot is a t2 omen, not a supercruiser
goddamn you are dumb |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:16:00 -
[178] - Quote
if you made a t2 dreadnaught and made it fit titan dds as guns, it would be a capital
it would be an unbalanced capital in need of a nerf but it would be a capital goddamn morons |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:25:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ooh, I can play that game too. Moron. Moron moron. Mooooroooon.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:32:00 -
[180] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Ooh, I can play that game too. Moron. Moron moron. Mooooroooon.
well that's good you learned how to play that game since you clearly don't get this "eve online" game I've heard you like |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:33:00 -
[181] - Quote
now go off and hide in the hole centra fled to earlier and never darken these forums with your terrible posting and terrible analysis of eve again |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:40:00 -
[182] - Quote
He also have no clue how jump drives work, or real game mechanics. He has not, nor will he ever have any clue on how to nerf game mechanics they every ship in the game must follow. It just I can't kill one CCP HELP ME! Hell I ask him to provide real reason's, and how to fix it. I been reading this thread, NOTHING except its a supper cap, but I am not the only one who has. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:44:00 -
[183] - Quote
Seriously, get over this bullshit argument about whether JFs are the supercaps of logistics - you're all really missing the point.
This has nothing to do with ship balancing, and everything to do with the economics of long-range logistics.
Simply put, moving vast quantities of materiel from say, Jita to somewhere in Delve, should be a massive logistical undertaking taking several different ships and a meaningful amount of effort. It shouldn't be something that can be done by one player, using one ship (plus a few cyno alts), with a few hours(?) of autopiloting and a few risk-free jumps between stations. Moving that much stuff, that far, should be such a demanding process in time, expense and effort that it becomes unthinkable except for the most essential goods.
I remember a Dev saying at some point that highsec - nullsec logistics should be a little like living on the American wild west frontier - waiting for the mail train to come past once a month. I agree completely. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:47:00 -
[184] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Simply put, moving vast quantities of materiel from say, Jita to somewhere in Delve, should be a massive logistical undertaking taking several different ships and a meaningful amount of effort.
no it shouldn't, for reasons I elaborated on in great detail two pages ago |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:47:00 -
[185] - Quote
go address that if you wish to continue making a discredited point
edit: here is the post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=219268#post219268 |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:50:00 -
[186] - Quote
also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane
jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
88
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:55:00 -
[187] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:steave435 wrote:Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap. are you brain-dead what's a zealot compared to whatever the base amarr cruiser is, a supercap omen? Super cap = super CAPITAL. Omen != capital -> Zealot is not a super CAPITAL Freighter = capital -> JF = super CAPITAL thrulinn, read the thread, I went into detail about why they are supercaps earlier. Considering your posts and your name though, it's pretty obvious what you're doing, so I'll just ignore you. Food for thought, as I won't argue the point (yes, I have read post #56 and understand your point of view):
Neither freighters nor jumpfreighters require Capital Ships skill, so they can be considered just big sub-caps built with some capital components. Note that all capitals are built with pretty much the same components, except freighters are only built with a small subset of capital components. Jumpfreighters are just freighters with jumpdrives, and are very similar to Black Ops in materials.
The Orca similarly is built with capital parts, and lacks a jumpdrive like freighters, and also doesn't require Capital Ships skill.
Back to the meat of the matter...
I really don't see the point of nerfing jumpfreighters if your intent is to increase nulsec logistics difficulty. It would be better to just remove JF and refund the skill points in that case, as their only purpose is to simplify nulsec logistics. I currently own 3 Rhea, so of course I'd hate for anything to happen to them, but I'll adapt if something does. I also own a Rorqual, which is almost as useful for hauling.
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:02:00 -
[188] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane
jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time What you're not getting is that giving JFs their proper label would not make logistics that much harder - you'd just need to run regular freighters from the trade hub to the first low sec and ESCORT them trough the first gate - you just need to keep it clear for a minute while the freighters go in. After that, they can load up the JFs, which you then need to ESCORT to null, aka maybe 1-2 mid points plus destination, and then freighters unload them. It will be a pain in the ass if you try to do it solo, but if you assemble a fleet so you can fly several freighters at once with a combat fleet to clear the gate, you can easily get a ton of stuff into low sec at once, and then you can escort a bunch of JFs at the same time back home in a single trip. Basically, rather then logistics being space work, it would suddenly be a fleet activity PVP thing, you could at any point get into a fight and actually have FUN instead of just doing booring, repetitive work. Get your alliance members to help out rather then relying on a very small group to do it all and it won't be a problem. If you think it is a problem, then great - recruit some miners to mine ore in your local space and some manufacturers to build ships from those minerals and you have the supplies right next door without the need to haul, and you just created a local market in 0.0. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:11:00 -
[189] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane
jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time What you're not getting is that giving JFs their proper label would not make logistics that much harder - you'd just need to run regular freighters from the trade hub to the first low sec and ESCORT them trough the first gate - you just need to keep it clear for a minute while the freighters go in. After that, they can load up the JFs, which you then need to ESCORT to null, aka maybe 1-2 mid points plus destination, and then freighters unload them. It will be a pain in the ass if you try to do it solo, but if you assemble a fleet so you can fly several freighters at once with a combat fleet to clear the gate, you can easily get a ton of stuff into low sec at once, and then you can escort a bunch of JFs at the same time back home in a single trip. Basically, rather then logistics being space work, it would suddenly be a fleet activity PVP thing, you could at any point get into a fight and actually have FUN instead of just doing booring, repetitive work. Get your alliance members to help out rather then relying on a very small group to do it all and it won't be a problem. If you think it is a problem, then great - recruit some miners to mine ore in your local space and some manufacturers to build ships from those minerals and you have the supplies right next door without the need to haul, and you just created a local market in 0.0.
Quoted for truth.
Edit: Fleet-work and cooperation in logistics operations is better gameplay. Real industrial activity distributed throughout nullsec instead of all centred around Jita is better gameplay. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:12:00 -
[190] - Quote
escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen
you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:12:00 -
[191] - Quote
if you think escort duty is "fun pvp" you are so ******* high I am suprised you can type |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:13:00 -
[192] - Quote
"we could double the length of time it takes to fly to a fight! it would be fun pvp, because it doubles the time where ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN" |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:24:00 -
[193] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen
you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos). There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:28:00 -
[194] - Quote
Weaselior, you're so committed to the routine of ferrying everything to and from highsec that you can't see beyond that. By making that process more challenging, people will be encouraged to avoid it entirely. The more you build in nullsec, the less you have to haul from highsec.
How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:30:00 -
[195] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Weaselior, you're so committed to the routine of ferrying everything to and from highsec that you can't see beyond that. By making that process more challenging, people will be encouraged to avoid it entirely. The more you build in nullsec, the less you have to haul from highsec.
How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita? i answered this in my megapost, i even linked it
if you wish to make this argument at least go read what I've already written on the subject rather than asking questions I've answered |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:31:00 -
[196] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen
you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos). There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub.
so we're abandoining the argument this is anything but "more space work" i assume, just arguing it is less space work than previously thought |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:45:00 -
[197] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen
you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos). There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub. so we're abandoining the argument this is anything but "more space work" i assume, just arguing it is less space work than previously thought It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:47:00 -
[198] - Quote
steave435 wrote:It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo.
see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0
i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
also this is vastly more space work as you've just multiplied the necessary people by like 20 at a minimum (meaining it's way more than a 20x increase in space work as you also have to corrall 20 people on a regular basis for mind-numbing space work) so don't try to pass it off as "the same space work" |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:54:00 -
[200] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:steave435 wrote:It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo. see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0 i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps Nope, that's just your (wrong) opinion. Since you keep ignoring the points of "this will be a group activity rather then work" and "if you don't agree with that, you can help the game by recruiting miners and manufacturers", I'll consider you a troll from now on though. |
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:56:00 -
[201] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:also this is vastly more space work as you've just multiplied the necessary people by like 20 at a minimum (meaining it's way more than a 20x increase in space work as you also have to corrall 20 people on a regular basis for mind-numbing space work) so don't try to pass it off as "the same space work"
Just looks like mining, both are so boring and need so many people for such low revenue and fun. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:57:00 -
[202] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote:How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita? i answered this in my megapost, i even linked it if you wish to make this argument at least go read what I've already written on the subject rather than asking questions I've answered
I've read it, and you haven't really answered it. You've said that EVE is designed in a way that requires vast quantities of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. But you're only half right - EVE is designed in a way that encourages vast amounts of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. A very large part of that encouragement is the ease with which JF logistics work.
Obviously, there are some things which will always make more sense to be acquired at a trade hub than built to order in an outpost or a POS. But beyond that, nullsec alliances are perfectly capable of building up a local industrial base to provide much of what they need in terms of at least T1 ships and ammo (I've seen it done by renters). But for the most part, they just don't want to because it's so much easier to just guilt some poor sod who owns a JF to ship everything they need from highsec.
Making logistics a group effort does several things:
- provides more opportunity for cooperation between players.
- demystifies the 'ships and modules fairy'. The more ordinary players know about and participate in the logistics process, the less likely it is that they'll take it for granted.
- gives more incentive to build things locally, if group-work logistics is too much effort to maintain at that frequency.
Nullsec has enormous capacity for industry, which is nearly completely neglected at the moment. Preventing JFs from using stargates will both encourage players to develop industry in nullsec, and to work together more to get their essential shipments moved safely. Both of those outcomes are positive changes to gameplay. It really isn't hard to grasp. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:59:00 -
[203] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:steave435 wrote:It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo. see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0 i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps Nope, that's just your (wrong) opinion. Since you keep ignoring the points of "this will be a group activity rather then work" and "if you don't agree with that, you can help the game by recruiting miners and manufacturers", I'll consider you a troll from now on though. shut up maggot
'your arguments are too hard for me, you must be a troll' |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:I've read it, and you haven't really answered it. You've said that EVE is designed in a way that requires vast quantities of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. But you're only half right - EVE is designed in a way that encourages vast amounts of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. A very large part of that encouragement is the ease with which JF logistics work.
No it's not. I used the word "required" and I meant it. Trit must be imported, in massive quantaties. Fuel must be imported, in massive quantities (fuel is regional: you cannot "mine your own"). Moon minerals must be either exported or imported, in massive quantities (moon minerals are regional). All of these have existed for some time well before jump freighters existed. 0.0 is fundamentally designed to require a massive logistical pipeline to empire. We've wanted that to be severed for some time: allow ways to mine lots of trit in 0.0 for example. But without those, a massive influx of material from empire is a requirement, not an option. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:03:00 -
[205] - Quote
and, of course, there's the annoyance that there are no refinery/factories in 0.0 which makes it a huge pain even if you do import raw minerals |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:04:00 -
[206] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Preventing JFs from using stargates will both encourage players to develop industry in nullsec, and to work together more to get their essential shipments moved safely. Both of those outcomes are positive changes to gameplay. It really isn't hard to grasp.
Prevent JF's from using stargates means they will only jump? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:07:00 -
[207] - Quote
in essence, the idea of "nerf jump freighters and 0.0 industry will blossom" is ********
nerf jump freighters and 0.0 will wither and stagnate
if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:08:00 -
[208] - Quote
So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel? |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:13:00 -
[209] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Prevent JF's from using stargates means they will only jump?
It means they can't enter highsec. If they can't enter highsec, then other ships have to get the materials to lowsec (via stargates, instead of just jumping from highsec in total safety), requiring scouts and escorts, and most importantly, cooperation.
Weaselior wrote:if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues
On this, I agree - there's more to it than just the ease of JF logistics. But even if all those other things were fixed, JFs would still need to be nerfed, because reliance on them is just too easy. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:22:00 -
[210] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel?
Simple, many like my self don't go into low-sec space very often. If at all. Everything I need to make the ships is in high sec-space. Not that it matter's where it is made. The point is something needs to move it. regardless of how, or what you use. T1 freighter's, Or T2 jump ships, carriers and or titans., of the few other ships that can. Now someone in CCP decided that a jump freighter was needed. It really dose not matter if it from high-sec to to low-sec or low-sec to low-sec, 0.0 space. Now since most of what is needed is in high-sec. they made it so it can go to high-sec. It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow. They changed the T1 freighter enough, but not enough to make a ship design. |
|
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:30:00 -
[211] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow
Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that? |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:36:00 -
[212] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:thrulinn wrote:It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?
Like I said some developer decided that this game need's a ship that can, and nothing is going to change that. It will all ways be able to do so. Maybe a MOD here has been reading the thread, maybe not, but they are not relaying this to the developers to change what dose not need changing. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:42:00 -
[213] - Quote
Then we'll see posts because some people will use BO's cargo fitted/rigged to safely transport stuff from/to high/null, sure small amounts but still. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:45:00 -
[214] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Weaselior wrote:if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues On this, I agree - there's more to it than just the ease of JF logistics. But even if all those other things were fixed, JFs would still need to be nerfed, because reliance on them is just too easy.
Essentially, if the pipeline of required import/export for 0.0 to function was fixed so 0.0 industry was viable, I'd be completely fine with nerfing the JF. I'm saying you can't nerf it until you do: 0.0 industry isn't **** because of the JF, the JF is a patch on EVE to fix the fact 0.0 simply doesn't function.
CCP likes the model of 0.0 and empire being co-dependent: as long as they want that model you can't cut the JF. You need to sever or weaken that tie first, then nerf the JF. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:49:00 -
[215] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel?
1)Because you can't even have a refinery and produciton outpost in the same system. POS production sucks because you need an office to use a bpo, and 0.0 outposts are really light on office slots. This makes 0.0 battleship production an unfun nightmare of many round-trip freighter runs. Doing them cross-system is enough to make you want to murder youself or a CCP employee.
2)Because PI sucks and nobody wants to do it. It's another unfun game mechanic, so we'd rather do more fun ones and spend money on getting PI products than make it ourselves.
Seperate flaws with eve, essentially. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:51:00 -
[216] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:thrulinn wrote:It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that? black ops battleship |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 00:04:00 -
[217] - Quote
This thread needs to DIAF The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 05:13:00 -
[218] - Quote
Lots of good discourse since I've been here last. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 07:35:00 -
[219] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote:thrulinn wrote:It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that? black ops battleship
Capital ship, fool: Learn to read
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:00:00 -
[220] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Lots of good discourse since I've been here last. get back in your hole |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:04:00 -
[221] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Weaselior wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote:thrulinn wrote:It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that? black ops battleship Capital ship, fool: Learn to read like the freighter, the battleship can enter highsec and use gates; so too can both of their t2 jump-capable versions
it is deadalus who incorrectly assumed only capital-class ships could hold a jump drive |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 14:13:00 -
[222] - Quote
Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.
You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there). |
Elistea
Seedless Inc Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 14:32:00 -
[223] - Quote
I'd like to add something usefull to this topic...
Let's nerf noobships!!! Why? Because we can!
My point being...
Fail topic....
BS in pure form... |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 14:32:00 -
[224] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.
You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there). like the freighter, the battleship can enter highsec and use gates; so too can both of their t2 jump-capable versions
the carrier and dreadnaught are barred from highsec and gates for their combat capability
this is another case of you comparing apples and howitzers |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 15:04:00 -
[225] - Quote
Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 15:09:00 -
[226] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities?
there is no good reason for the rorq to be barred from highsec, except ccp's apparent (unfounded) belief it would be a buff to 0.0 mining compared to highsec
given that it is virtually never used for its designed role, one can safely assume ccp's decisions on its design were not great ones |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1280
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 15:12:00 -
[227] - Quote
I mean the rorq is, essentially, a giant mistake. Virtually every capability it has is unused except its cargohold and jump drive: it is a happy accident that it happens to fit a key logistical role but it's not at all what it was designed for. It was designed by someone who thought you'd siege a 1.5b isk ship in a belt and mine with it. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 15:12:00 -
[228] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote:Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities? there is no good reason for the rorq to be barred from highsec, except ccp's apparent (unfounded) belief it would be a buff to 0.0 mining compared to highsec given that it is virtually never used for its designed role, one can safely assume ccp's decisions on its design were not great ones
For once I'll agree with this on this one |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 17:10:00 -
[229] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Centra Spike wrote:Lots of good discourse since I've been here last. get back in your hole
Are you mad that people are actively discussing nerfing the ship you use to do your alliance's logistics? I mean, I for one might be a little mad that my gameplay might change and require more effort.
You want your easy-mode logistics to stay the same because you say it's boring. Clearly it is not that boring and soul crushing if you continue to do it. And you reap massive rewards charging your alliancemates for stuff with no risk to your ship ever. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1283
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:33:00 -
[230] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Weaselior wrote:Centra Spike wrote:Lots of good discourse since I've been here last. get back in your hole Are you mad that people are actively discussing nerfing the ship you use to do your alliance's logistics? I mean, I for one might be a little mad that my gameplay might change and require more effort. You want your easy-mode logistics to stay the same because you say it's boring. Clearly it is not that boring and soul crushing if you continue to do it. And you reap massive rewards charging your alliancemates for stuff with no risk to your ship ever. i don't do logistics or importing
i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1283
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:35:00 -
[231] - Quote
basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:03:00 -
[232] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal Yes, that is a good description of your posts. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1283
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:08:00 -
[233] - Quote
steave435 wrote:Weaselior wrote:basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal Yes, that is a good description of your posts. there's really no burn more pathetically limp-wristed than an "i am rubber you are glue" response
go back to kindergarten where that one still works |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 16:10:00 -
[234] - Quote
Since you don't bother doing anything other then repeating yourself, ignoring anything you don't agree with, there's no point bothering to put any effort in it. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1315
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 16:51:00 -
[235] - Quote
i will repeat myself as long as it takes for you to actually address the points I made in my megapost rather than glossing over them and hope that nobody sees them
its here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=219268#post219268
you and centra, because you are pathetically bad posters and pathetically bad at understanding game design, have persisted in sticking your fingers in your ears for pages because it systematically demolishes your whiny useless argument
if you wish to stop being mocked and you would like to be treated like you have anything of value to say, start there
otherwise, continue to cry to mommy and unleashing fearsome "no u" burns |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 19:20:00 -
[236] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you.
huh?! no. they're not over powered...and it's not an "iwin" jump freightrers have to take risks too..every time they are used.. you spend 5 billion on a ship and them have it "balanced" into oblivion. they are 5 billion because they are better.. and because it cost that much to make them. you have to have a complete regular freighter to sacrifice to the gods of manufacture to create them plus a large bundle of cap parts.. I'm sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree. just what are you thinking you are trying to balance them against anyway? you whole premise is just incorrect.
. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 19:26:00 -
[237] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.
You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there).
Before jump freighters we used to have to use carriers to jump our supplies in and out of null sec.. CCP nerfed the carriers and gave us the jump freighter to fit that role.. now you would take that away too... lame.. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 19:29:00 -
[238] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Before jump freighters we used to have to use carriers to jump our supplies in and out of null sec.. CCP nerfed the carriers and gave us the jump freighter to fit that role.. now you would take that away too... lame..
Not at all. All I'd do is stop Jump Freighters using stargates. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 20:15:00 -
[239] - Quote
steave435 wrote:At this point, we have all the data needed to calculate final haul time: The JF takes 12m 30s per trip, and requires 3 trips, giving a final time of 37m 30s. During these trips, he hauls roughly an extra 100k m3 of random stuff to the destination (an Obelisk can handle exactly 18 BS with its 900k m3 cargo at freighter 4 while an Anshar takes 6 BS per trip with 37.5k m3 left over) and about 1m m3 of moon goo/minerals/loot that the carrier can't carry back to Jita. The carrier+freighter combo takes 7m 45s to travel trough gates to and from the hub, and it has to do 2 of those trips in order to reset for an another go. That is a total of 15m 30s. On top of that, it has to complete 9 round trips with the carrier to move all the BS, each taking 6 minutes. That is a total of 45 minutes added on top of the previous 15m 30s for a total of 60m 30s. On top of that, he had to take a significant risk bringing his freighter trough a gate to low sec and use a cyno 36 times in short succession compared to the 12 a JF needs, which causes delays when a cyno is killed since you, unlike the JF, don't have an another 13 minutes until you need it again, you only have half that, and during that time you're actively jumping around rather then being stuck in a long warp between gates that you can use to focus on your cyno alts and get them new ships. As if that wasn't enough, the JF can decrease its round trip time even further, either by using the same method of bringing a freighter to low sec and then jumping from there, meaning it only takes 15m 30s plus 3 round trips of 6m for a total of 18m+15m 30s = 33m 30s.
This post and the one before it Legitimizes why this ship was put in in the first place. To make it easier and less of a hassle to move things, and I can remember when everything took far to much of a effort to do so. I am sure many that have read this wonderful thread remembers it as well. About your comments about team work and using coordination.. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cynosural_Field_Generator_I Do you know what this is..End of that argument. unless this ship dose not need one of those.
Regardless of what you think, moving good's will not go back to the way it was before this ship entered the game. It will never be anything more than a T2 Command capital ship. Because that IS what it is.
So what if I am not in a big corp, I do know how to read and do understand the game mechanics.
So please like I said before make a valid point why it should not be here. All you have done is clearly show why it is here. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 21:57:00 -
[240] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument
My trusted sources tell me otherwise.
You said it yourself, logistics is easy.
Nothing in this game should be easy. |
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 22:37:00 -
[241] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Weaselior wrote:i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument My trusted sources tell me otherwise. You said it yourself, logistics is easy. Nothing in this game should be easy. Indeed. Following trough with Weaseliors argument: Logistics is sooo booring. We should just be able to have items magically teleported from anywhere to anywhere else instantly for free. Manufacturing is booring too. Let's have NPCs handle that, add NPC buy orders for ore and sell orders for ships/mods. Mining is booring, so lets skip the ore buy orders actually. Minerals come from nowhere. But making isk is booring. Let's have the ships free. Reinforcing structures is booring. Let's just be able to hit a button to instantly reinforce any structure anywhere from anywhere. Moving around is booring. Let's add the ability to teleport yourself and your ship anywhere instantly at any time. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1329
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 00:07:00 -
[242] - Quote
posting ******** things on friday afternoon of halloween weekend so I can't mock them all day at work is cheating |
Comboduck
TURN LEFT
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 16:09:00 -
[243] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Weaselior wrote:i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument My trusted sources tell me otherwise. You said it yourself, logistics is easy. Nothing in this game should be easy.
|
Aessaya
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 02:04:00 -
[244] - Quote
Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. Ah, you seek meaning?-áThen listen to the music, not the song. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 05:19:00 -
[245] - Quote
Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is.
How is jump bridging normal freighters overpowered? Is it because it takes massive effort to get a Titan and then move the freighter into lowsec/0.0 to get to the Titan?
Or because it takes more than:
1) Undock from Jita 4-4 2) Right-click capacitor 3) Jump to cyno on station 4) Dock |
Sparky12
InterSun Freelance Moon Warriors
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 13:54:00 -
[246] - Quote
I think We need to get laid more often, let the frustration of eve go with a boom like a Glass cannon ship, it only lasts 5 seconds. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 15:37:00 -
[247] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. How is jump bridging normal freighters overpowered? Is it because it takes massive effort to get a Titan and then move the freighter into lowsec/0.0 to get to the Titan? Or because it takes more than: 1) Undock from Jita 4-4 2) Right-click capacitor 3) Jump to cyno on station 4) Dock
Give it a rest noob...Every company, corp and Government looks for ways to move goods, or what ever as cheaply, and as safely as possible. The Jump freighter make this possible in the game. It also make it possible for those moving the stuff to do other things like PVP mission run or mine, or what ever they feel like, and have the burden of having to move stuff as slowly as possible, with the most number's of people they need to help them. It has its purpose, and its need. So just stop legitimizing why the ship is here. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 16:38:00 -
[248] - Quote
No one's gonna take you seriously with that name, too obvious thrulinn / trullin' / trolling. |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 16:54:00 -
[249] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:Give it a rest noob...Every company, corp and Government looks for ways to move goods, or what ever as cheaply, and as safely as possible. The Jump freighter make this possible in the game. It also make it possible for those moving the stuff to do other things like PVP mission run or mine, or what ever they feel like, and have the burden of having to move stuff as slowly as possible, with the most number's of people they need to help them. It has its purpose, and its need. So just stop legitimizing why the ship is here.
Man, I don't even know if Weasilor can take this post seriously. |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Corporation Confederacy
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 05:22:00 -
[250] - Quote
If having easier caught Jump Freighters is desired by others. Here is a good fix for them: Make it so they can only jump twice , (or so), per hour. This creates better chances that they'll be found at Jump Gates.
/End |
|
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 11:38:00 -
[251] - Quote
Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is.
JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF.
|
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:08:00 -
[252] - Quote
steave435 wrote:No one's gonna take you seriously with that name, too obvious thrulinn / trullin' / trolling.
This whole thread has been started, and continued by two troll's that thinks it's ok to set this back 1 year, or how ever long its been since this ship came out.
It has a purpose, get over it. You still have yet to make a point why it should not be here. You keep proving why it's here and why it works, and why they made a T2 jump freighter in the first place. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:12:00 -
[253] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF.
Don't make in so obvious your trolling..
Try looking up the stats and see just how many battleships this can actually carry. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:32:00 -
[254] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:thrulinn wrote:Give it a rest noob...Every company, corp and Government looks for ways to move goods, or what ever as cheaply, and as safely as possible. The Jump freighter make this possible in the game. It also make it possible for those moving the stuff to do other things like PVP mission run or mine, or what ever they feel like, and have the burden of having to move stuff as slowly as possible, with the most number's of people they need to help them. It has its purpose, and its need. So just stop legitimizing why the ship is here. Man, I don't even know if Weasilor can take this post seriously.
I bet he know's far more about logistic's, moving freight cheaply, and safer than you do.
You keep making it something its not. You keep thinking having more people moving goods should be the main focus of there play time. You keep pointing out WHY it has a purpose.
Great idea lets build this game around moving freight. Let turn this game back a year and pretend this ship never came out. Let's forget about getting in our ships and kill other ship's, or what ever they want to do. Lets move freight.
CCP No we want a freight moving game. We want you to make our nice JF take three or four times longer to move stuff. We never want to have fun. We just want to go system to system moving stuff.
|
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 17:57:00 -
[255] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:I bet he know's far more about logistic's, moving freight cheaply, and safer than you do.
You keep making it something its not. You keep thinking having more people moving goods should be the main focus of there play time. You keep pointing out WHY it has a purpose.
Great idea lets build this game around moving freight. Let turn this game back a year and pretend this ship never came out. Let's forget about getting in our ships and kill other ship's, or what ever they want to do. Lets move freight.
CCP No we want a freight moving game. We want you to make our nice JF take three or four times longer to move stuff. We never want to have fun. We just want to go system to system moving stuff.
I have yet to see you make a reply to the several post's he has made about why JF have a valid place in the game. So make a valid reply, not troll comments.
Of course he knows about doing logistics, he does logistics runs for his alliance and doesn't want anything changed.
He doesn't want logistics to change because it is safe and easy.
He doesn't want logistics to change because it would require more effort.
He doesn't want logistics to change because boring things in game should be simple.
He says he wants more dynamic PVP but argues that logistics interdiction is not a valid form of PVP.
This game is designed around NON-CONSENSUAL PVP, I never said anything about a 'freight moving game'. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 18:32:00 -
[256] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:thrulinn wrote:I bet he know's far more about logistic's, moving freight cheaply, and safer than you do.
You keep making it something its not. You keep thinking having more people moving goods should be the main focus of there play time. You keep pointing out WHY it has a purpose.
Great idea lets build this game around moving freight. Let turn this game back a year and pretend this ship never came out. Let's forget about getting in our ships and kill other ship's, or what ever they want to do. Lets move freight.
CCP No we want a freight moving game. We want you to make our nice JF take three or four times longer to move stuff. We never want to have fun. We just want to go system to system moving stuff.
I have yet to see you make a reply to the several post's he has made about why JF have a valid place in the game. So make a valid reply, not troll comments. Of course he knows about doing logistics, he does logistics runs for his alliance and doesn't want anything changed. He doesn't want logistics to change because it is safe and easy. He doesn't want logistics to change because it would require more effort. He doesn't want logistics to change because boring things in game should be simple. He says he wants more dynamic PVP but argues that logistics interdiction is not a valid form of PVP. This game is designed around NON-CONSENSUAL PVP, I never said anything about a 'freight moving game'.
He also dose not want, nor-should the game go back to the way it was before the JF came out. It has a valid purpose/ use. Steave has made many valid post's as to why it's needed, and why it's here to stay.
This game is also designed around CONSENSUAL PVP. Each player to a point should be able to decide if they want it or not. Since the JF help's the person decide I not going to risk pvp, so I will ask my friends/corp mates to help make it safe. You can't have it YOUR way wile other's that also pay money each month want to play there way, and I am sure there are far more than you and Steave think the JF is needed. Two people lose, all the many JF operators win.
If the JF fit my need's and I had 5bill I would use one my self. But to costly and too big for what I do. |
Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 19:55:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP nerfed unprobeable ships because they were raking in isk while being pretty much untouchable. Why not do the same for jump freighters?
You can say that JFs do get killed...well so did unprobeable ships. |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:08:00 -
[258] - Quote
thrulinn wrote: This game is also designed around CONSENSUAL PVP.
lolno |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:15:00 -
[259] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:thrulinn wrote: This game is also designed around CONSENSUAL PVP.
lolno
What is wrong?? I do chose when I do want to PVP or not. |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:51:00 -
[260] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Don't make in so obvious your trolling.. Try looking up the stats and see just how many battleships this can actually carry.
Maybe you should do your homework, will give you much more possibilities in logistics. people who only transport 7 BS in a JF are idiots. |
|
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:02:00 -
[261] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Don't make in so obvious your trolling.. Try looking up the stats and see just how many battleships this can actually carry. Maybe you should do your homework, will give you much more possibilities in logistics. people who only transport 7 BS in a JF are idiots.
I all ready have TROLL. This ship dose not carry 150+ BSs |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 18:25:00 -
[262] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Don't make in so obvious your trolling.. Try looking up the stats and see just how many battleships this can actually carry. Maybe you should do your homework, will give you much more possibilities in logistics. people who only transport 7 BS in a JF are idiots. I all ready have TROLL. This ship dose not carry 150+ BSs To test your lack of math skills, the average BS volume is 480000m3. Divide that by the cargo hold of a JF, and see what you get.
lol, okay,
mabe somebody else will explain you big scale logistic with a jump freigther. will not explain how it works when you even didn't know the difference between packaged and assemble shipvolume.
have fun :D |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 18:43:00 -
[263] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:
lol, okay,
mabe somebody else will explain you big scale logistic with a jump freigther. will not explain how it works when you even didn't know the difference between packaged and assemble shipvolume.
have fun :D
To bad,,Your trolling is so bad you can't show how this ship fits 150 BSs |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:13:00 -
[264] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:
lol, okay,
mabe somebody else will explain you big scale logistic with a jump freigther. will not explain how it works when you even didn't know the difference between packaged and assemble shipvolume.
have fun :D
To bad,,Your trolling is so bad you can't show how this ship fits 150 BSs
i dont need too, you showed that you have no clue from a JF and that you think it can not carry a single BS. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Deadspace Guard Night Sky Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:28:00 -
[265] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:
lol, okay,
mabe somebody else will explain you big scale logistic with a jump freigther. will not explain how it works when you even didn't know the difference between packaged and assemble shipvolume.
have fun :D
To bad,,Your trolling is so bad you can't show how this ship fits 150 BSs i dont need too, you showed that you have no clue from a JF and that you think it can not carry a single BS.
With maxed Freightr skills a Rhea can carry 7 repackaged battleships. 367968m3/50000m3 = 7 So no it can't carry 150 battleships, it REQUIRES two people to use and costs quite a bit to jump/lightyear, they were neven intended for a individual person but for a LARGE corp who operates out on null sec. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:38:00 -
[266] - Quote
See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but lack the math skills to prove it. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Deadspace Guard Night Sky Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:44:00 -
[267] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but need better math skill's. I know I just have a +4 troll bane flaming longsword, that I needed to dust off. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:51:00 -
[268] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:thrulinn wrote:See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but need better math skill's. I know I just have a +4 troll bane flaming longsword, that I needed to dust off.
Most here think that just because you don't agree with them 100% your are trolling them...
Nice to flame a troll every so often. |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:07:00 -
[269] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:thrulinn wrote:See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but need better math skill's. I know I just have a +4 troll bane flaming longsword, that I needed to dust off. Most here think that just because you don't agree with them 100% your are trolling them... Nice to flame a troll every so often.
hey, you even wasn't able to put a single BS in the jumpfreigther with your great math :) yeah, it is hard without a JF, maybe i can lend you one of my JF fleet? |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Deadspace Guard Night Sky Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:18:00 -
[270] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:thrulinn wrote:See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but need better math skill's. I know I just have a +4 troll bane flaming longsword, that I needed to dust off. Most here think that just because you don't agree with them 100% your are trolling them... Nice to flame a troll every so often. hey, you even wasn't able to put a single BS in the jumpfreigther with your great math :) yeah, it is hard without a JF, maybe i can lend you one of my JF fleet? You are right I didn't put a single battleship in, I put seven in and still had room for all the modules to fit it.
My goodness this is a hard troll to kill. I will just have to keep it up till I land a crit |
|
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:38:00 -
[271] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:thrulinn wrote:See above post LtCol RTButts TROLL... It can't carry 150 BSs..
I never said how many it could carry..Your the one that said it can carry 150+, but need better math skill's. I know I just have a +4 troll bane flaming longsword, that I needed to dust off. Most here think that just because you don't agree with them 100% your are trolling them... Nice to flame a troll every so often. hey, you even wasn't able to put a single BS in the jumpfreigther with your great math :) yeah, it is hard without a JF, maybe i can lend you one of my JF fleet?
I never tried to fit one in it. I gave you the volume of the one Gellente ship I looked up, and told you to use your math skills to prove it could hold 150+. It dose not matter one bit what the listed volume really mean's. It truly showed your vast trolling skills.
I told you to prove it can hold 150+ BSs.
You failed..
If you were not trolling you would have known it would never hold 150+ BSs and then tried to make it look like I don't know anything. All I did was point out your trolling, and you keep proving me correct.
Now give me that JF you don't have, as anyone who actually has one know's how many BSs it can hold.
Oh I do have an Orca. It fit's my need nicely, so since that ship can hold one BS I know a JF can hold one, but 150+ BSs. 150 shuttles more like it.. |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:25:00 -
[272] - Quote
hey thrullinn,
you are trolling the people here again and again and again.
to be honest, you have no clue to move stuff on large scale, you move all the crap in the 0815 noob way only. the only thing you can do is trolling this thread to death with your orca knowledge that has never left high sec. don't miss me wrong, an orca is an decent ship that can carry a shitload of stuff. but, it is no JF and in 0.0 you have different affords to a ship and especially to the logistics.
but, you are trolling here people about every bullshit, people show here the difference between carrier and JF and what so ever ... and get a troll from you.
Quote: He also have no clue how jump drives work, or real game mechanics. He has not, nor will he ever have any clue on how to nerf game mechanics they every ship in the game must follow. It just I can't kill one CCP HELP ME! Hell I ask him to provide real reason's, and how to fix it. I been reading this thread, NOTHING except its a supper cap, but I am not the only one who hasHe also have no clue how jump drives work, or real game mechanics. He has not, nor will he ever have any clue on how to nerf game mechanics they every ship in the game must follow. It just I can't kill one CCP HELP ME! Hell I ask him to provide real reason's, and how to fix it. I been reading this thread, NOTHING except its a supper cap, but I am not the only one who has
no, you really have no clue about jumping around the nullsec and no, you really have no clue about game mechanics.
but continue to call me a troll, i like it :)
many JF pilots like your trolling and keeping up your 480k m-¦ BS math example for JF.
fact is, without the JF and some game mechanics, many things would complitly run different in 0.0. CCP tries to bring back the carebears with their mining lasers into 0.0 and manufacturer to build stuff from it. with the JF as it currently is and other game mechanics, nothing will change. logistic to feed a location in 0.0 is a lazy one man job.
fly save :) |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:47:00 -
[273] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:
fact is, without the JF and some game mechanics, many things would complitly run different in 0.0. CCP tries to bring back the carebears with their mining lasers into 0.0 and manufacturer to build stuff from it. with the JF as it currently is and other game mechanics, nothing will change. logistic to feed a location in 0.0 is a lazy one man job.
fly save :)
Thanks for your support! You made some really good points. |
Lokie00
Wrecking Shots Morsus Mihi
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:04:00 -
[274] - Quote
build mwds and a jf can damn near carry a titan |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:57:00 -
[275] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF.
Remember this.
What you make such a blatantly obvious troll post and then to do nothing to prove your self correct, or even correct your self, and ignore Omnathious Deninard's post do to the fact you knowingly made a troll post, and then think I am trolling just to prove your not.
You get caught trolling and now you cry acting like you know something. What did you just now read this entire thread, or did you find some you like to try and show that YOU ARE NOT A TROLL.
You made it way to easy to make you look like a fool trolling, and now you try to prove you know something just to act like your not trolling. You think I know nothing about this game just to prove your not a troll?
Next time you make a troll post get your fact's right, learn math, and try reading the entire thread, and don't just pick a post you don't understand just to make your self look good.
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:03:00 -
[276] - Quote
Centra Spike wrote:"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC
I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters
Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much mat+¬riel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.
There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.
I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.
Thank you. Not being able to fit nanos on a JF is just evil. |
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 09:11:00 -
[277] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Remember this. What you make such a blatantly obvious troll post and then to do nothing to prove your self correct, or even correct your self, and ignore Omnathious Deninard's post do to the fact you knowingly made a troll post, and then think I am trolling just to prove your not. You get caught trolling and now you cry acting like you know something. What did you just now read this entire thread, or did you find some you like to try and show that YOU ARE NOT A TROLL. You made it way to easy to make you look like a fool trolling, and now you try to prove you know something just to act like your not trolling. You think I know nothing about this game just to prove your not a troll? Next time you make a troll post get your fact's right, learn math, and try reading the entire thread, and don't just pick a post you don't understand just to make your self look good.
|
LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 09:20:00 -
[278] - Quote
thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Remember this. What you make such a blatantly obvious troll post and then to do nothing to prove your self correct, or even correct your self, and ignore Omnathious Deninard's post do to the fact you knowingly made a troll post, and then think I am trolling just to prove your not. You get caught trolling and now you cry acting like you know something. What did you just now read this entire thread, or did you find some you like to try and show that YOU ARE NOT A TROLL. You made it way to easy to make you look like a fool trolling, and now you try to prove you know something just to act like your not trolling. You think I know nothing about this game just to prove your not a troll? Next time you make a troll post get your fact's right, learn math, and try reading the entire thread, and don't just pick a post you don't understand just to make your self look good.
lol,
okay, we learn some math.
with non opimized mineral compression i can carry all stuff for 184 geddons in a rhea. with 11 amarr fabslots in the destination system the job is done in ~26 hours. by this huge amout of ships it should be okay, jumping them with your system into destination will take longer and is much more expensiver.
the entire thread, hm, i read it. i saw you just trolling against everybody who told something against your wet dream of a ship, an own JF, the SC in logistic efforts.
and yeah, you don't know the important game mechanics for logistic efforts. you are just a TROLL who don't accept other oppinions, you cry all the time for better "arguments" but you can't understand what people talking about. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 12:27:00 -
[279] - Quote
JF are fine and not overpowered at all. I use one. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 13:07:00 -
[280] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:thrulinn wrote:LtCol RTButts wrote:Aessaya wrote:Given that JFs are the only T2 capital ship in existance I'd say they can stay this way. Also, transporting unrepackaged ships in a JF? UMAD? It can fit at most 3 cruiser hulls or one BC hull, no more. I'd rather use Orca for this than the expensive JF. Or a carrier if in low/null-sec.
And no, JFs are not overpowered. Jump-bridging regular freighters is. JF are overpowered. don't think it was inteded from CCP that a ship can carrier 150+ Battleships at once. CCP has killed the industrial segments in all null sec regions with only one shiptype, the JF. Remember this. What you make such a blatantly obvious troll post and then to do nothing to prove your self correct, or even correct your self, and ignore Omnathious Deninard's post do to the fact you knowingly made a troll post, and then think I am trolling just to prove your not. You get caught trolling and now you cry acting like you know something. What did you just now read this entire thread, or did you find some you like to try and show that YOU ARE NOT A TROLL. You made it way to easy to make you look like a fool trolling, and now you try to prove you know something just to act like your not trolling. You think I know nothing about this game just to prove your not a troll? Next time you make a troll post get your fact's right, learn math, and try reading the entire thread, and don't just pick a post you don't understand just to make your self look good. lol, okay, we learn some math. with non opimized mineral compression i can carry all stuff for 184 geddons in a rhea. with 11 amarr fabslots in the destination system the job is done in ~26 hours. by this huge amout of ships it should be okay, jumping them with your system into destination will take longer and is much more expensiver.
See if you started out something like this you might have been fine, not with the 150+ BSs this ship can hold, and I see you still have not figured this out. To bad your first post was troll. Should we look up your second troll post?
You really should go and read the hole thread, as I only repelled to 2 or 3 not everyone. and just because I have a different opinion I'm a trolling? but you proved to fail to understand actually trolled. Like I told another here most here think that just because you don't agree with them 100% your are trolling them, to bad you are the troll here.
It's really to late for you to try and prove you know something, face it you got caught trolling, called on it, and you lost.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:35:00 -
[281] - Quote
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic, thank you. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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LtCol RTButts
APEX ARDENT COALITION NEM3SIS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:33:00 -
[282] - Quote
thulinn, you are a strange guy.
you want me to do the math and i did it, okay, was not what you have expected and want to see, but it how it works to deliver 0.0 markets most efficient. okay, with your argumentations, i had no argument because you only accept the BS transport as endproduct and thats a maximum of 7 if you transport and read the infor from a tier 1 BS correct.
on the other hand you ask how a tier 1 BS should fit into a JF when is has a volume of 480k m-¦ ..... at this point your argument didn't fit with even a single BS gets into a JF cargohold at the end.
but hey you are correct, you have a really good knowledge about supporting any destination with goods with the most efficient way, especially 0.0 regions and you really know how it works and how to use a JF. i think this is what you wanted to hear.
good luck in the future :)
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thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:44:00 -
[283] - Quote
.. |
thrulinn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:54:00 -
[284] - Quote
.. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 01:49:00 -
[285] - Quote
Meh, he just doesn't want his solopwnmobile nerfed. |
Pothead Alar
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:50:00 -
[286] - Quote
I guess it really dose not matter that a few think its OPd or what ever. A dev moved this from where ever it was started to the I don't give a **** section, to discuss ship fit ups that the players think works best giver there experience/ views. More like them, then those who do not. They put this ship in, and a few other mechanics to please the masses, not the few.
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Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:10:00 -
[287] - Quote
And now JFs are even more overpowered.
10 seconds of invulnerability to jump after undocking.
NICE JOB CCP. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 23:24:00 -
[288] - Quote
One of the issues with nerfing JFs, is that it would only take the slightest nerf to make JFs almost useless, with most of them getting killed whenever they travel.
Because lets face it, if they are nerfed, all pirates/aggressors are going to know about it, and make it one of their highest priorities to catch one of these 5billion ISK ships. |
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