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Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
it doesn't make it easier, it just abolishes the convoluted workaround of having two or three characters to do the job of one which either requires more time or more money for additional accounts. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
806
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Posted - 2013.02.12 16:03:00 -
[152] - Quote
Ankles McGlashan wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
it doesn't make it easier, it just abolishes the convoluted workaround of having two or three characters to do the job of one which either requires more time or more money for additional accounts.
this guy gets it!
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
105
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:17:00 -
[153] - Quote
fukier wrote:Ankles McGlashan wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
it doesn't make it easier, it just abolishes the convoluted workaround of having two or three characters to do the job of one which either requires more time or more money for additional accounts. this guy gets it! Who? me or Ankles?!
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
824
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Posted - 2013.02.13 15:19:00 -
[154] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:fukier wrote:Ankles McGlashan wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
it doesn't make it easier, it just abolishes the convoluted workaround of having two or three characters to do the job of one which either requires more time or more money for additional accounts. this guy gets it! Who? me or Ankles?!
ankles... i dont like paying so much isk for loosing a frig
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
110
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Posted - 2013.02.13 15:35:00 -
[155] - Quote
fukier wrote: ankles... i dont like paying so much isk for loosing a frig
Fair enough. I do like a lot of your ideas about making clones transportable, and making them a player made item. And I also think that we will see some kind of cost cut for high end clones.
I personally don't agree with it, but I'm not going to hold my breath and jump up and down if they bring those costs down.We shall see.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14039
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:44:00 -
[156] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
So you're saying I'm being penalized, because I didn't plan my character training correctly?
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
110
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:53:00 -
[157] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
So you're saying I'm being penalized, because I didn't plan my character training correctly?
I'm saying that an account with all its SP's in one character has advantages and disadvantages. An expensive clone being a huge disadvantage that people want to go away. While keeping all of the advantages. It is an unfair adjustment that will unbalance the current power structure.
The thing is there are some players who planned on people having that disadvantage and built to take advantage of it. The case of Test v. Goons being the big one.
Most people look at this and see more pewpew, there are however very specific winners and some losers with a change of this magnitude. That is probably why CCP was so vague about "being unhappy with clone pricing." It needs some work, but its a big issue with far reaching consequences balance wise.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14039
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:17:00 -
[158] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Mag's wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."
So you're saying I'm being penalized, because I didn't plan my character training correctly? I'm saying that an account with all its SP's in one character has advantages and disadvantages. An expensive clone being a huge disadvantage that people want to go away. While keeping all of the advantages. It is an unfair adjustment that will unbalance the current power structure. The thing is there are some players who planned on people having that disadvantage and built to take advantage of it. The case of Test v. Goons being the big one. Most people look at this and see more pewpew, there are however very specific winners and some losers with a change of this magnitude. That is probably why CCP was so vague about "being unhappy with clone pricing." It needs some work, but its a big issue with far reaching consequences balance wise. The only advantage is being able to use different ships. When you fly a frig, there are only so many skills you use. It's the same for everyone. This is what makes Eve's skill system so great.
People should not be punished for having one account or training only one character. As much as I agree with many things you say bud, that's simply illogical. You're basically saying sure you can fly anything you want, but to keep clone costs down, you must train multiple character and have multiple accounts.
The cost of replacing many of my clones, dwarfs the medical cost. This isn't simply about ISK, it's about balance and changing a mechanic that penalizes longevity. It's about allowing people to choose.
Test v goons is irrelevant to me and this tbh. But CCP haven't been vague. Page 48 of the last CSM meeting will tell you exactly what they think of this and even the SP loss.
I'm all for sinks and would like more to be introduced. But this sink needs a rework.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
130
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Posted - 2013.02.13 17:10:00 -
[159] - Quote
Remove Clone Costs = higher SP pilots get to run around in frigates without worrying about their absurdly expensive clones. More PVP is what has been agitated for - if we get rid of high clone costs, then one of the aspects that deter PVP is removed. |
HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
147
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Posted - 2013.02.13 17:18:00 -
[160] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.
Clone prices should be more even. Might make people think twice before clubing baby seals...errr i mean ganking miners or freighters in hi-sec.
Clone cost as much as your ship? Hell yea your actions now have more consequences...welcome to the sandbox. |
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Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
113
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Posted - 2013.02.13 17:31:00 -
[161] - Quote
Mag's wrote:The only advantage is being able to use different ships. When you fly a frig, there are only so many skills you use. It's the same for everyone. This is what makes Eve's skill system so great.
People should not be punished for having one account or training only one character. As much as I agree with many things you say bud, that's simply illogical. You're basically saying sure you can fly anything you want, but to keep clone costs down, you must train multiple character and have multiple accounts.
The cost of replacing many of my clones, dwarfs the medical cost. This isn't simply about ISK, it's about balance and changing a mechanic that penalizes longevity. It's about allowing people to choose.
Test v goons is irrelevant to me and this tbh. But CCP haven't been vague. Page 48 of the last CSM meeting will tell you exactly what they think of this and even the SP loss.
I'm all for sinks and would like more to be introduced. But this sink needs a rework.
There's huge advantages to having all your skills in one character: If you move you only need to move one char, you never need to log out then back in to do something, you don't have to contract goods back and forth or remember who has what, it saves you a month training time on core skills.
You are not being punished for playing one toon, there are great advantages to that. As with all things in Eve it comes with some limitations and problems too, high clone cost being one. The assumption that playing one char should be better than playing 3 characters is strange to me. It doesn't make the game better, there are 3 slots to take advantage of, and most MMO players have more than one character. Why would CCP give players who only have one character and advantage over those who play all 3?
You made the choice, for whatever reason, to skill up one toon. While other players put up with the disadvantages and complications of working multiple characters and now you want CCP to invalidate all of that work. You can roam freely while multi character accounts must log out and back in and shuffle gear and funds around.
And this is to say nothing of taking advantage away from characters who spent months of training time and grinding faction to be able to afford their clones and gear because they could see where the clone prices were going.
If you want cheap clones then you compensate all those players that worked and planned to play the game as it was presented instead of complaining about it being unfair.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14043
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 17:38:00 -
[162] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's huge advantages to having all your skills in one character: If you move you only need to move one char, you never need to log out then back in to do something, you don't have to contract goods back and forth or remember who has what, it saves you a month training time on core skills.
You are not being punished for playing one toon, there are great advantages to that. As with all things in Eve it comes with some limitations and problems too, high clone cost being one. The assumption that playing one char should be better than playing 3 characters is strange to me. It doesn't make the game better, there are 3 slots to take advantage of, and most MMO players have more than one character. Why would CCP give players who only have one character and advantage over those who play all 3?
You made the choice, for whatever reason, to skill up one toon. While other players put up with the disadvantages and complications of working multiple characters and now you want CCP to invalidate all of that work. You can roam freely while multi character accounts must log out and back in and shuffle gear and funds around.
And this is to say nothing of taking advantage away from characters who spent months of training time and grinding faction to be able to afford their clones and gear because they could see where the clone prices were going.
If you want cheap clones then you compensate all those players that worked and planned to play the game as it was presented instead of complaining about it being unfair.
But there is one problem with your stance, I haven't simply trained up one character. I have in fact 4 high SP characters. I would have had 8, but I have sold 4 character that were way over 100 mil SP and closed the accounts. Having one character is not an advantage, that's why I have more. More chars make life a lot easier, because I can be in multiple places at the same time.
Each character I have, can do certain things better than the other. I simply don't understand your stance. It makes no sense.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
113
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mag's wrote:But there is one problem with your stance, I haven't simply trained up one character. I have in fact 4 high SP characters. I would have had 8, but I have sold 4 character that were way over 100 mil SP and closed the accounts. Having one character is not an advantage, that's why I have more. More chars make life a lot easier, because I can be in multiple places at the same time.
Each character I have, can do certain things better than the other. I simply don't understand your stance. It makes no sense.
And you personally have no problems paying for clones, you roam lowsec and have plenty of income to pay for your losses. That is how the game should be played, you are rewarded for good planning and a solid understanding of the game.
Most of the guys arguing for this are looking for a shortcut. They don't want to play the game as presented, they want the game to conform to their idea of what is fun. That works fine in a closed system, but Eve is not a closed system, and benefits to one population result in setbacks for another.
Freeing high skill point characters from the burden of clone costs will allow them up to be much more aggressive, those players will be suddenly more powerful than they were before.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14043
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:05:00 -
[164] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Mag's wrote:But there is one problem with your stance, I haven't simply trained up one character. I have in fact 4 high SP characters. I would have had 8, but I have sold 4 character that were way over 100 mil SP and closed the accounts. Having one character is not an advantage, that's why I have more. More chars make life a lot easier, because I can be in multiple places at the same time.
Each character I have, can do certain things better than the other. I simply don't understand your stance. It makes no sense. And you personally have no problems paying for clones, you roam lowsec and have plenty of income to pay for your losses. That is how the game should be played, you are rewarded for good planning and a solid understanding of the game. Most of the guys arguing for this are looking for a shortcut. They don't want to play the game as presented, they want the game to conform to their idea of what is fun. That works fine in a closed system, but Eve is not a closed system, and benefits to one population result in setbacks for another. Freeing high skill point characters from the burden of clone costs will allow them up to be much more aggressive, those players will be suddenly more powerful than they were before. OK fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Is that OK?
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
114
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:14:00 -
[165] - Quote
Mag's wrote:OK fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Is that OK?
Yeah I'm good with that. Like I was telling Fukier I think CCP will lower the cost for clones on the high end. I enjoy the discussion not as an attempt to shape the game or influence CCP, rather its interesting to theorize what they might do and why. And then sometime in the future we get to see if we were right!
The other interesting thing about that is it confirms or denies certain aspects of the game that we are not privy to. Sort of a way to see behind the doors in Eve R&D.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
824
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:26:00 -
[166] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Mag's wrote:OK fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Is that OK? Yeah I'm good with that. Like I was telling Fukier I think CCP will lower the cost for clones on the high end. I enjoy the discussion not as an attempt to shape the game or influence CCP, rather its interesting to theorize what they might do and why. And then sometime in the future we get to see if we were right! The other interesting thing about that is it confirms or denies certain aspects of the game that we are not privy to. Sort of a way to see behind the doors in Eve R&D.
well said good sir.
either way c cp goes i am happy they are looking into it... but i am still partial to the op's ideas.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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