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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
345
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Posted - 2013.02.09 22:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Citizens of New Eden, President Roden, members of CONCORDGÇÖs Inner Circle,
With a little hesitation, I write you on the topic of Caldari Prime. The hesitation is because last time I did so, publishing a petition to start negotiations for a peaceful return of Caldari Prime to the State, the petition became superfluous two days later, when Heth took the planet back at the start of the war.
The past days, IGÇÖve been hearing rumors that the Federation might use the current unrest in the state to re-occupy Caldari Prime, and I fear their might be some truth to these rumors. Fear because I think that reclaiming Caldari Prime will mean that the chances for peace between the State and the Federation will decrease drasticly, or at the very least will cause the length or intensity of the war to increase.
Therefor I petition the Roden administration to leave Caldari Prime in Caldari hands, and I urge all Federation citizens to do the same. I petition CONCORD to declare Caldari Prime a demilitarized zone under CONCORD's protection, and I urge all New Eden citizens to do the same, and to spread this letter, or a similar one, to your fellow citizens.
Peace,
-A dove Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
436
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Posted - 2013.02.09 23:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
I prefering to limit myself to matters of contemplation on Science and Philosophy and therefore I usually refrain from engaging in political matters, however on this matter I will speak my mind.
It is a politican fact that that CONCORD has no jurisdiction on this matter. Luminaire is the sovereign territory of the Gallente Federation. The Caldari give up any rights to the Planet of Luminaire VII when they illegal succeeded from the Federation by Military force then fled to the then hinterlands of deep space.
Luminaire literally means beacon of light, it is the light of freedom in a harsh universe that must be nurtured. The presence of this ship of mass destruction is an affront to this freedom. There can be no peace when confronted with a It is a sword of despair; while the barbarian Heth remains in control of the Caldari state and seeks to extinguish the light with this harbinger of doom.
One day, hopefully sooner rather than later this blot will be removed and freedom will be returned to Luminaire.
Fate willing I will be part of that vangard of freedom. PI Profitability spreadsheet
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
51
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Posted - 2013.02.09 23:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote: It is a politican fact that that CONCORD has no jurisdiction on this matter. Luminaire is the sovereign territory of the Gallente Federation. The Caldari give up any rights to the Planet of Luminaire VII when they illegal succeeded from the Federation by Military force then fled to the then hinterlands of deep space.
Mr. Mossari,
I must insist you review the terms of the cease-fire a tad bit more closely sir. Caldari Prime was never seceded to the Gallente Federation, but left under Federation control (i.e. occupation) after the battle of Iyen-Oursta. There seems to be a misunderstanding as to just what the cease-fire (no formal peace has been made since then, I don't know why people treat it as if there was) entailed. After the battle of Iyen-Oursta the Caldari State entered into Concord broker peace talks, and while the Gallente Federation was no willing to suffer an enemy so close their Iyen-Oursta, the Caldari State was not willing to forfiet rights to theirs. In the end we were force to leave our home in the hands of the Federation, but we did not give it to the Federation.
My people were forced to leave at the hands of military bombardment and blockade by the Federation, who acted first in terms of lethal military action. As long as the Federation denies the Caldari State to the rights of their homeworld, there will be no real peace, Heth or no unfortunately.
Respectfully,
Simon Malkov Louvaki, CEO Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ Federal Administration Information Center Office Complex 781, Tier V Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime) Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
306
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Posted - 2013.02.10 00:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would like to add my voice to those raised in search for a peaceful resolution to the matter of Caldari Prime. It is our Home world, it is the cradle of our civilisation and a mere two centuries of effort to tack a Federation veneer over the top of those peaks and snowy fields has done nothing to change that in the hearts of the Caldari.
There is, literally, no chance of a lasting peace for so long as the Federation attempts to keep that world from the rightful and true sons and daughters of the Winds. Our Ancestors gave us no peace until it had been retaken and they would disown us if we allowed it to pass from our hands again.
Whilst the current unrest in the State might affect our ability to fight a conventional fleet war against the Federation Navy, nothing can lessen the watchfulness of the Leviathan in orbit. Should there be any attempt to take advantage, it will be the bringer of our wrath and the ruiner of worlds.
There is too much to lose and far too little to gain. Come to your senses and make peace! |
James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
151
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Posted - 2013.02.10 02:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Whilst the current unrest in the State might affect our ability to fight a conventional fleet war against the Federation Navy, nothing can lessen the watchfulness of the Leviathan in orbit. Should there be any attempt to take advantage, it will be the bringer of our wrath and the ruiner of worlds.
You cannot pray peace, with a threat. "We are what we do." |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
222
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Posted - 2013.02.10 02:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
As long as the Federation wishes to occupy our homeworld, there will be no peace. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
54
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Posted - 2013.02.10 02:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Whilst the current unrest in the State might affect our ability to fight a conventional fleet war against the Federation Navy, nothing can lessen the watchfulness of the Leviathan in orbit. Should there be any attempt to take advantage, it will be the bringer of our wrath and the ruiner of worlds.
You cannot pray peace, with a threat.
This is certainly one of the major detractors from our position. Heth has promised to obliterate hundreds of thousands of innocent people in response to an attack on what is militarily a perilous position. Peace at the tip of a sword is no peace at all they say, and only adds to the fire like so much dry wood to the flame.
Respectfully,
Simon Malkov Louvaki, CEO Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ Federal Administration Information Center Office Complex 781, Tier V Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime) Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
307
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Posted - 2013.02.10 04:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
The situation is what it is. The Leviathan will only open fire if the Federation Navy attacks the CalNav blockade. It has been there for years and never sought to interfere with Federation control of the rest of the system.
The Titan is there and I would prefer to focus attention on solutions which might normalise relations and lead to its removal. As things are, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is a degree of skepticism that the removal of the Leviathan would lead to anything other than another invasion of Home.
Instead of railing against what is, let's see some suggestions for moving forward. |
James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
154
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Posted - 2013.02.10 05:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The situation is what it is. The Leviathan will only open fire if the Federation Navy attacks the CalNav blockade. It has been there for years and never sought to interfere with Federation control of the rest of the system.
The Titan is there and I would prefer to focus attention on solutions which might normalise relations and lead to its removal. As things are, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is a degree of skepticism that the removal of the Leviathan would lead to anything other than another invasion of Home.
Instead of railing against what is, let's see some suggestions for moving forward.
And I can sure you can appreciate that I and those who agree with me, will oppose any accommodation with the State as long as it remains. "We are what we do." |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
307
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Posted - 2013.02.10 07:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
And I and those who agree with me will see calls from the Federation to remove it as nothing more than a disingenuous attempt to clear the way for an attack. So arguing to have it removed is arguing for war and not arguing for peace. |
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
437
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Posted - 2013.02.10 08:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:::Edited to clear up some discrepancies::
Caldari Prime was never seceded to the Gallente Federation, but left under Federation control (i.e. occupation) after the battle of Iyen-Oursta.
The Planet of Luminaire VII never left the Federation until it was illegally seized by Heth. The decendents of those renegade that deserted Caldari Prime have no legal claim on the planet that subsumes those that remained on Luminaire VII as free citizens of the Federation. PI Profitability spreadsheet
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
307
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Posted - 2013.02.10 09:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote:Simon Louvaki wrote:::Edited to clear up some discrepancies::
Caldari Prime was never seceded to the Gallente Federation, but left under Federation control (i.e. occupation) after the battle of Iyen-Oursta. The Planet of Luminaire VII never left the Federation until it was illegally seized by Heth. The decendents of those renegade that deserted Caldari Prime have no legal claim on the planet that subsumes those that remained on Luminaire VII as free citizens of the Federation.
Driven off, through an entirely unprecdented and illegal use of force.
Returned, through an entirely unprecedented and illegal use of force.
Maintained, through an entirely unprecedented and illegal threat of force.
What's the matter, Mister Mossari? Don't like the taste of your own recipes? |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
408
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Posted - 2013.02.10 12:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Our Ancestors gave us no peace until it had been retaken and they would disown us if we allowed it to pass from our hands again.
Oh great, now they hear the voices from the dead. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
349
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
The comments so far only strengthen my belief that Caldari Prime should be protected by CONCORD. Some Caldari do not want to leave the planet unprotected, and some Gallente can not live with a hostile Titan close to their homeworld, as Tovil Toba is also remembered on Gallente Prime. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
312
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:The comments so far only strengthen my belief that Caldari Prime should be protected by CONCORD. Some Caldari do not want to leave the planet unprotected, and some Gallente can not live with a hostile Titan close to their homeworld, as Tovil Toba is also remembered on Gallente Prime.
To remember Yakiya Tovil-Toba without remembering the context for his actions is folly. However I am pleased that the Federation does still remember Caldari resolve and the cost it can inflict in the face of unchecked aggression.
Do not misunderstand me, I have no fondness for the war between our peoples but that doesn't mean I'll accept a dishonourable peace. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
59
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote: The Planet of Luminaire VII never left the Federation until it was illegally seized by Heth. The decendents of those renegade that deserted Caldari Prime have no legal claim on the planet that subsumes those that remained on Luminaire VII as free citizens of the Federation.
The Planet of Caldari Prime was blockaded, bombarded invaded and occupied by armed military forces of the Federation armed forces, an event that led to the open armed rebellion of the newly formed Caldari Sate. Either you acknowledge that Caldari Prime made a bid for independence, and thus was part of a rouge state from the Federation or you acknowledge the Federation waged a war on the law-abiding citizens of one of its own worlds. The Caldari State never relinquished its claim on the Homeworld, but did acknowledged Federation occupation as a stipulation of the cease-fire.
In the end, the Caldari People willingly entered into the Federation on their own accord and left on their own accord. The legality of the matter in terms of Federation law is moot. I'm sure you've seen people clamoring for rebellion against Heth correct? I find it almost hypocritical as a whole for the Federation to encourage dissent in the State when they denied freedom to a people who no longer wanted to be apart of their own Empire.
This however will get us nowhere in the end. I would also like to echo Che Biko's sentiments and fully support the demiliterization of Luminarie by both sides. Luminarie isn't just home of the Gallente, its the birth place of the Caldari as well. We share a common womb, like it or not, and neither of our homeworlds should be threatened by extinction. Therefore I see a CONCORD operated buffer zone the best solution for both our people.
James Syagrius wrote: And I am sure you can appreciate that I and those who agree with me, will oppose any accommodation with the State as long as it remains.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:And I and those who agree with me will see calls from the Federation to remove it as nothing more than a disingenuous attempt to clear the way for an attack. So arguing to have it removed is arguing for war and not arguing for peace.
Tuuilnen-haan,
This remains a precarious situation at best. I'm sure you would agree that we all need to put aside our differneces and work out a deal that is beneficial to all parties. As a result we must all make concessions in order to assure that we reach a desired conclusion. I've spoken with Syagrius at length about these issues, and I can guarantee he is not arguing for war. As long as each side is pointing a gun at each other and demanding peace we will never have it.
What would you suggest to remedy this situation?
Respectfully,
Simon Malkov Louvaki, CEO Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ Federal Administration Information Center Office Complex 781, Tier V Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime) Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
496
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 16:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mutual trust must be built between our peoples before a lasting peace can be found.
I suggest we go into business together. Nothing builds bonds of friendship more practically than a common enterprise. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1799
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 17:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
I've pushed for peace for a long time, and earned nothing more for my trouble than the experience of repeatedly ending up looking like a fool in front of my own countrymen and being spat upon by those on the other side of the war that I worked so hard to advocate for. Indeed there may still be a chance for peace, but it must be one on our terms that leaves the Patriots and all the filth associated with that ignoble conglomerate no wriggle room to continue their insane vendetta against us. Mane 614
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stoicfaux
2322
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
war is life, death is peace. hippies seek strife, warmongers seek relief.
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Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
33
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gallente Prime is destroyed already. It was destroyed a long time ago.
That being said, I support the peaceful return of Caldari Prime to the Caldari people, and its subsequent segragation from the rest of Luminaire. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
312
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Louvaki-haan, it's clear that Caldari Prime must be returned to the State, perhaps as a territory jointly managed by the CEP and a peace must be in place that is mutually beneficial to both sides before the Titan is removed.
Perhaps the total demilitarisation of the Luminaire system is the best way forward, it seems sensible that both sides must have equal strength for there to be any sort of chance for a detente to stick. Normally I'd consider the words of a man like James Sygarius most carefully before opposing them, but Roden's very political life is staked on the Federation re-conquering Home. I simply don't trust him to maintain the Status Quo, whereas the Titan has been in Luminaire for years with no adverse effects. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
408
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
59
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind.
Mrs. Farel,
I believe former Gallente President Souro Foiritan and the vast majority of the Federation's citizens would disagree with you there. If it was not at least somewhat true then there would have been no 'One Day War'. There's something unsettling about knowing that retaliation would end in the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of the people you are sworn to protect.
Respectfully,
Simon Malkov Louvaki, CEO Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ Federal Administration Information Center Office Complex 781, Tier V Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime) Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
408
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
I am not sure to understand ? |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
59
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Perhaps I misunderstood your original post. I interpreted it as to saying the Leviathan would not act a deturent against invasion or military action by the Federation, I was replying that I don't believe that to be the case given the reaction of Souro Foiritan. Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
120
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Posted - 2013.02.11 01:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind. I'm glad I've recorded that statement for posterity, because if a Gallente assault on Caldari Prime were to occur, those words should be framed alongside images of charred cities on Gallente Prime. Perhaps with the caption "famous last words?", or something to that effect.
Look, I despise Heth. I think he's a dictator, someone who is leading my race down a dark path to being the pariahs of the cluster, and would love to see him killed. However, your statement is flat out stupid. The occupation force in orbit of the planet would be negligent not to have surveillance on any of the potential avenues of approach to the planet, such as from stations, stargates, and force concentrations in the system.
Any sudden movements by the Gallente forces, and that titan can change alignment for Gallente Prime. If a taskforce shows up to challenge the State's control of Caldari Prime, all it takes is a warp from that Leviathan, and billions of Federation citizens will die. "We'll disable its warp with heavy interdictors", you might say - may I remind you that the titan is not alone. Its escort fleet will be sure to disable anything that would otherwise pin it down before engaging in a stand-up fight.
Please tell me Federal citizens and affiliated capsuleers are not so stupid as to believe what you've said. If you are, then I pity you, and your lack of strategic vision. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1800
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Posted - 2013.02.11 01:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
At which point the State has:
a. Lost its only bargaining token in the Luminaire system b. Lost the one thing important to it in the Luminaire system c. Lost any hope of portraying themselves as the morally superior party in the argument d. Utterly voided its membership of CONCORD e. Given the Federation a spectacularly good justification to retaliate with overwhelming lethal force f. Gained literally nothing
Threatening to shoot a hostage only works while the hostage is still alive. If you shoot the hostage, you not only lose the only thing that's stopping people from shooting you, you give them an extra reason to do so. Mane 614
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
60
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Posted - 2013.02.11 01:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
If the Federation launched an attack in lieu of Heth's threat then the State would have already lost everything anyway. There would be nothing stopping Heth from giving the order to rain down as much death and destruction as he could, because all he would have left was to make good on his promise. Andreus however is right, and I don't think Heth has the foresight to see the consequences listed above. In fact, this entire situation shows how little foresight he had on the matter.
I don't agree with the method in which Home was retaken, but at this juncture there can be no lasting peace unless it rest within the Caldari sphere of influence. Once Heth is gone, I hope President Roden will take the initiative if not the Megas to end this debacle once and for all. Sengokuvaa Corporate HQFederal Administration Information CenterOffice Complex 781, Tier VLuminaire VII (Caldari Prime) |
Henry Montclaire
42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum
45
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Posted - 2013.02.11 06:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
I believe the term appeasement may have some bearing on this discussion.
I also put before the Caldari here a scenario and a question. Say that a group of settlers come to a planet. There are ruins of a previous civilization there, but the planet has fallen under the government of these settlers by hook or crook. The settlers make a life there, have children there, and those children build lives there. For hundreds of years they live on this planet until one day strangers appear. These strangers explain that that planet was their home, and that they've come to reclaim it. They demand that the settlers' decedents vacate their houses, they threaten them with violence, persecute them for the crimes of people they never knew. The planet that they were born and raised on becomes their prison, and the ghosts of the past become their harsh and self righteous jailers.
Is that Justice? |
Wei Soikutsu
Soikutsu Optics LLC
23
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
That is not justice; that is a terrible analogy. Positing third-party settlers, omitting small details like the entire history of the conflict, and pretending they live in some sort of information vacuum makes this completely inapplicable to the current situation. |
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