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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
500
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Posted - 2013.03.13 03:48:00 -
[151] - Quote
"We will return"
Not the first thing I was taught, but the second, after the name of Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba. I don't know where you were brought up, Louvaki-haan, but 'We Will Return' and 'Never Again' were at the core of my childhood. The very first Civics lesson I attented focused on why our Capital was called "New Caldari Prime" and not "Caldari Prime" - that lesson was drummed into me. Even when talking with my Gallente friends, I can't quite bring myself to call Home by any other name.
So, after two centuries of this, it really shouldn't have been a surprise when we did, indeed, return. |
ColonelNick
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
8
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Posted - 2013.03.13 04:49:00 -
[152] - Quote
"but I do condemn the finger pointing and attempted shedding of blame by those who provoked war rather than seeking a solution that isn't destroying our State."
So the people who provoked the war the first time shouldn't be shed of blame either, by that logic. They forced us out. We forced our way back in. Fair is fair.
"Power should be awarded to those who show the ability to wield it wisely, "
It is simply your opinion Heth is using his power unwisely. Theres classified information that proves he has nothing to do with these killings. What i can tell you about that is it has something to do with Sleeper tech and the Cloners (Immortal Soldiers) the state and other empires have been training.
Ill send you the NeoCom link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sirens_of_Fear_and_Sense_(Chronicle)) Theres a reason Heth has ordered their immediate "Removal" from the armed forces.
The killings are not of Heths doing.
We can discuss this and have differing opinions all day, Louvaki-Haan, but at the end of the day its the CEP who decides to remove Heth or not. Not us. And these riots are doing nothing but ripping the state in half.
Respectfully -ColonelNick CEO, Providence Guard
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
210
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Posted - 2013.03.13 05:05:00 -
[153] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:"We will return"
Not the first thing I was taught, but the second, after the name of Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba. I don't know where you were brought up, Louvaki-haan, but 'We Will Return' and 'Never Again' were at the core of my childhood. The very first Civics lesson I attented focused on why our Capital was called "New Caldari Prime" and not "Caldari Prime" - that lesson was drummed into me. Even when talking with my Gallente friends, I can't quite bring myself to call Home by any other name.
So, after two centuries of this, it really shouldn't have been a surprise when we did, indeed, return.
Tuulinen-haan,
My mother was a Khanid and I was born and raised in the Kingdom as an extradite. My introduction to the Caldari State proper wasn't until my mid adolescence when I returned with my father.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong Pieter, but despite always holding Home close to our hearts there was still no significant movement to return it to our hands, militarily nor diplomatically. The CEP did not breach diplomatic bridges with the Federation and while I always heard talk (often after much alcohol) there was still never any real political movement to ensure that we would indeed return, not until Heth that is.
Should the Federation be surprised that we made good on our promise? well..thats a bit of a loaded question in my book. After two centuries of icy diplomatic relations with no significant movement on our part to make good on that promise it doesn't surprise me that our promise was forgotten. The Gallente are not Caldari, that much is very clear, and they don't seem to retain a collective memory in the sense that we do.
As I said, as long as I am able I will do everything within my power to ensure the loss of Home is never repeated. However, after what I've seen...after what we've seen...I will not sit back and pretend that current regime is entirely blameless. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
210
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Posted - 2013.03.13 05:23:00 -
[154] - Quote
ColonelNick wrote:
So the people who provoked the war the first time shouldn't be shed of blame either, by that logic. They forced us out. We forced our way back in. Fair is fair.
Correct, they shouldn't. The Templis Dragonaurs and the U-Nats should not be exonerated for their crimes. Unfortunately the U-Nats are not currently in power in the Federation and there is convincing evidence that suggests the Templis Dragonaurs are in positions of power amoung the Heth Administration.
ColonelNick wrote: It is simply your opinion Heth is using his power unwisely. Theres classified information that proves he has nothing to do with these killings. What i can tell you about that is it has something to do with Sleeper tech and the Cloners (Immortal Soldiers) the state and other empires have been training.
Correct. it is my opinion that breaking Caldari law and murdering Caldari citizens is misusing the power vested in him by the Caldari people and the Chief Executive Panel.
ColonelNick wrote:Ill send you the NeoCom link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sirens_of_Fear_and_Sense_(Chronicle)) Theres a reason Heth has ordered their immediate "Removal" from the armed forces.
The killings are not of Heths doing.
I believe we reference different things, colonel.
ColonelNick wrote: We can discuss this and have differing opinions all day, Louvaki-Haan, but at the end of the day its the CEP who decides to remove Heth or not. Not us. And these riots are doing nothing but ripping the state in half.
Your very correct Colonel, for now it is the CEP's decision; I hope for all our sakes they act soon. Also, a riot is by definition the violent disturbance of peace by a crowd. Tibus Heth made his introduction by igniting a violent revolt of workers against the deplorable managment of Caldari Constructions. That was a riot. The non-violent protest at the CEP HQ in which Home Guard force opened fire and kill over a thousand workers on defenseless transports was not .
Respectfully sir, I believe we may simply be at an impasse on Heth. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
501
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Posted - 2013.03.13 09:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
I was raised in a very ordinary Suuvee creche, Simon. Trust me - we learned about each of the Admiral's engagements over that week. which of his ships died and where. We covered the final battle over Gallente Prime in great detail - as a ten year old boy I won a merit prize for correctly naming each of the so-called 'essential personnel' who stayed with the Kairola when she went down.
It was always made clear to me that, unless diplomacy succeeded, we were going to take the first chance we had at getting it back. Only the very survival of the State would be an unfair trade.
In the aftermath of Malkalen I don't think that any of us thought we would ever take a Gallentean's word as anything other than meaningless dross ever again. It felt like the ultimate betrayal and the end of all diplomacy. Thankfully that proved not to be the case - but still, it is impossible for me, who watched the events unfold as a Peace and Order cadet, not to think back to my memory of the events and bring the emotions I felt with them.
I don't know if the Executor should go or not. I don't think I'm fit to make that decision. I would like to see an end to war, but I'm dubious about buying peace from the Gallente. Last time it was Caldari Prime. This time they're talking about us cedeing the CEWPA warzone to them. They demand Heth be removed. They'll want CPD officials tried too, no doubt - and perhaps senior Navy figures.
Where does it end? |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
694
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Posted - 2013.03.13 13:16:00 -
[156] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote: Please do correct me if I'm wrong Pieter, but despite always holding Home close to our hearts there was still no significant movement to return it to our hands, militarily nor diplomatically. The CEP did not breach diplomatic bridges with the Federation and while I always heard talk (often after much alcohol) there was still never any real political movement to ensure that we would indeed return, not until Heth that is.
We were told that we would return. No one told us when or how.
Louvaki-haan,
I respect your stance but unfortunately I must take issue. We were not told that we would return. We, as a people, vowed that we would return. We did not say when or how because that would remain for time to tell and is not information you provide to your enemies if you are wise.
We fled Caldari Prime during a sustained orbital bombardment, we did not leave by choice. After we fled, a tenuous pact was signed that created a cease fire between us. Home was not pursued because the conditions for the peace we held in place were that the sovereignty lines stood as they were, Caldari Prime was lost to us.
You are correct in that we often desired in our hearts to claim it back but the Caldari do not often move by popular sentiment. Some of the darkest parts of our history are times when we have. This is the reason the State was established as it was, to let our minds be pitted one against another and our sentiments weighed for merit by opposing sentiments. The reason you see no public declaration or attempt to reclaim Caldari Prime is because it was always understood that the cost in doing so would be too great.
That changed when Executor Heth took it upon himself after strategically gaining control over the State's economy and military to reclaim Caldari Prime and establish this current stand off.
The past cannot be undone. All we can do is not lose hope for the future and strive to make the most of what lies before us. Our opinions of Executor Heth aside, the situation exists and must be dealt with to the greatest of our ability. Is there a chance we could lose Caldari Prime again? Yes. Is it for certain? No. That is why we work to protect what we do have and pray that eventually logic and peace win the day, despite the odds against such a thing happening.
~Malcolm Khross
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Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
694
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Posted - 2013.03.13 13:19:00 -
[157] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I don't know if the Executor should go or not. I don't think I'm fit to make that decision. I would like to see an end to war, but I'm dubious about buying peace from the Gallente. Last time it was Caldari Prime. This time they're talking about us cedeing the CEWPA warzone to them. They demand Heth be removed. They'll want CPD officials tried too, no doubt - and perhaps senior Navy figures.
Where does it end?
Wisdom.
We share a desire for the war to end, on both sides of the conflict. Yet you are correct, we cannot and will not buy peace from our enemy. If peace is to occur and be sustained it will have to come from a mutual agreement from both sides. We will not sacrifice more than we must and we will not allow the Federation to dictate to us the terms of peace. ~Malcolm Khross
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Simon Louvaki
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
210
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Posted - 2013.03.13 18:06:00 -
[158] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Where does it end?
It has to begin before it can end Tullinen-haan. We may not know the future, but we can shape it if we so chose to seize it.
Both you and Khross-haan have given me much to reflect upon and I can only trust the State will make the right choice in the end.
Uaaka, Kirjuuns. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
393
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Posted - 2013.03.13 18:53:00 -
[159] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:ColonelNick wrote:Where was this "Give Caldari Prime back to the Caldari people peacefully" sentiment, BEFORE the war started. With all do respect Colonel, Home has always been at the back of Caldari minds but rarely in the forefront. Hmm, I thought I had linked to my "Negotiate Return of Caldari Prime to The State" petition, create days before the war broke out, quite thoroughly in the OP. And yes, I am ethnicly Gallente.
As an example of what Mr. Louvaki was speaking about, look at post #5 by "Stitcher" Hakatain, in response of my pre-war petition.
In any case, this discussion is getting rather sidetracked sometimes. I request more focus on how to reach a future peace. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
397
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Posted - 2013.03.16 00:41:00 -
[160] - Quote
The situation in Luminaire is slowly heading towards the worst case scenario. The voices of the doves are awefully quiet... Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
400
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:22:00 -
[161] - Quote
The situation in Luminaire is now rapidly escalating. My presence there has not made an impact, as far as I can tell. Caldari and Gallente may not all agree on how the Luminaire situation should be solved diplomaticly, but surely we can agree that it should be solved diplomaticly?
I feel awefully alone when I'm in Luminaire, calling for a peaceful resolution. I beg you to make your way there and make the call for peace sound louder. I'm afraid we don't have much time left.
It looks like CONCORD will not step in until after the Shiigeru/Kimotoro fleet is attacked, if even then. Therefor I would suggest the creation of a multi-ethnic capsuleer peacekeeping fleet, designed to pacify combatants, without lethal weapons, but I don't have high hopes this could be realized, considering the current climate and sentiments on the IGS. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1600
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:43:00 -
[162] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:The situation in Luminaire is now rapidly escalating. My presence there has not made an impact, as far as I can tell. Caldari and Gallente may not all agree on how the Luminaire situation should be solved diplomaticly, but surely we can agree that it should be solved diplomaticly?
I feel awefully alone when I'm in Luminaire, calling for a peaceful resolution. I beg you to make your way there and make the call for peace sound louder. I'm afraid we don't have much time left.
It looks like CONCORD will not step in until after the Shiigeru/Kimotoro fleet is attacked, if even then. Therefor I would suggest the creation of a multi-ethnic capsuleer peacekeeping fleet, designed to pacify combatants, without lethal weapons, but I don't have high hopes this could be realized, considering the current climate and sentiments on the IGS.
Peacekeeping forces only really work when you have more guns than the enemies, and just elect not to use them. I am not sure any capsuleer force that would be interested in peace could bring that to bear. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
401
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Posted - 2013.03.21 02:08:00 -
[163] - Quote
So, Federation Navy ships in close proximity to the Shiigeru, and full scale war has not broken out...that gives me some hope. I just hope that whatever they saw on Caldari Prime doesn't give them an excuse to return for more violent reasons. CONCORD was painfully absent during the 30 minute incident.
We need to stay vigilant. I will make a request to the IGS to form a peacekeeping force. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
560
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Posted - 2013.03.21 03:52:00 -
[164] - Quote
Che Biko wrote: We need to stay vigilant. I will make a request to the IGS to form a peacekeeping force.
Capsuleer sponsored "peacekeeping" forces won't do much to the situation. It would make things worse if anything.
At this point, the only thing we can do is hope for the best, brace for impact, and be there to provide relief once the smoke clears. I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
407
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Posted - 2013.03.25 21:58:00 -
[165] - Quote
Ishukone Corporation gives me hope, strengthening it's position as my favourite of the Big Eight.
I have updated my petition to better suit the current situation. Update 115.03.25
- I call for a cease fire on Caldari Prime
- I petition our leaders to enter diplomatic negotiations in order to reach to a durable, peaceful settlement in Luminaire.
- I urge all New Eden citizens to make similar petitions and send them to your leaders NOW!
Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
414
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Posted - 2013.04.05 21:22:00 -
[166] - Quote
Well. Petition closed. For now. But let's hope it stays that way.
I am of course pretty satisfied with the outcome, but...it came at the cost of so many lives. Maybe what some say is true, that big battles need to happen in order for some to see that we should do more to prevent them from taking place. The Caldari say Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu., (Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us). Perhaps sometimes we need to increase their numbers so they can guide us more properly.
Regardless, I feel like all the bloodshed could have been prevented if more would have joined in the call for a peaceful resolution. I feel like I should have done more, even though I went as far as trying to make a deal with the devil. I should have made my own voice louder and I should have spoken more frequently. I hope I made a difference somehow, that my words did save some lives.
But I find some solace that the senate, Roden, the CEP and others on both sides of the border still can make sensible decisions, albeit a bit late. Let's hope this new trend of constructive thinking will last a while.
Peace,
-Ch+¬ Biko Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
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