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Naomi Anthar
No Tax So Relax.
45
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Posted - 2013.02.20 09:15:00 -
[91] - Quote
First of all i love the fact that CCP sees things right way this time.
I will say what i think about mentioned ships:
Blood Raiders : 1. Cruor - seriously ship is cool and all but how i'm supposed to neut/shoot unbonused for cap usage lasers/scram and web (it's bonused for it after all) without being able to fit cap booster ? Solution i suggest is ... to move either one high or low to mid. Really i hate to say but 2 utility highs on frigate level is cool idea but in this case it does not work. Many may disagree but read again what i said. It NEEDS CAP BOOSTER. And since it's bonused to web - it must somehow fit web too. So prop mod + point + web + booster on this ship must be somehow possible. One utility high ... will do just make it not 75% but 125% or something like that bonused.
2. Ashimmu - great ship - looks simply awesome. But as mentioned it does many things but nothing really good enough ? I suggest one utility high moved too to either low or mid - preferably mid. But low will do too. 2 bonused neuts will still do the trick. If it will move to mid we can have 2 boosters or 2 webs - so it will be nice now. If moved to low - it can be more tanky.
3. Bhaal - good as it is now i guess.
Sansha Nation:
1. Succubus - this ship ... is total fail all way. Needs to reworked. I mean 2 utility highs ? Really ? That sucks big time. There is no bonus to neuts/vamp on this ship. It's ok blood raider ships get utlity highs but this one needs those to be ... yeah completly gone. Go for 2 high/5mid/3 low - now it will be beast. It will be able to field huge tank and huge gank. And won't be cap starved. And fix damn speed it's slower than few cruisers ;o.
2. Phantasm - first of all speed. Second of all speed. And again speed. It's as fast as damn Machariel in base speed value ... and before Machariel can fit more lows for nanos etc . But not going to compare it to battleship atm. Ship once again with 2 utility highs ? You really expect it to use cap for neuts when it struggles to shoot it guns and run it's tank ? I hope not. Tho on cruiser level i suggest you leave one utility high. Move extra one to either mid or low. For either more tank/cap boosters or low for more gank.
3. Nightmare - it was said it's ok but ... It's struggling with cap problems and once again having more utlity highs than it really needs. Keep one. But on this one ima hesitate. Seriously getting 8th mid can ... make it overpowered with mid+ low = 14 ... it would be sick. So not sure there. Maybe it's fine ;o. Actually dunno i hope others can say more about it.
Guristas : 1. Worm - give it standard bay of 50 . And some drone bonus maybe just health and tracking like tristan? Instead of extra bay of course. Or make it more missile based ? Like bandwitch 35-40 and dunno bonus to missile damage ?
2. Gila - seriously there is no missile based pirate faction ships. Guristas ships are drones. This should change a bit. I suggest you do reduce bay/bandwitch of this . No need to have dominix bay/bw . Keep 75 or 100 bandwitch. But change bonus on missiles to some damage/RoF and ... if you reduce bandwitch as you should - then add launcher.
3. Rattlesnake - Change bonus to missile velocity to damage or RoF. Can't say more i don't fly it - just suggestion.
Serpentis: 1. Daredevil - can't say much - i think it deals a bit too much damage. I know it is supposed to deal a lot but ... maybe 150% instead of 200% ? It would still deal most of all.
2. Vigilant - i think mostly fine. If i would have to vote nerf or buff i would say neither , but when forced to choose i would say nerf. Tho i thinks it's ok.
3. Vindicator - as vigilant.
Angel Cartel : 1. Dramiel - ok jokes aside - needs to be fastest faction ship but it's over top atm. It takes spots of interceptors and is better in other aspects. It cannot be clear winner in all aspects. Dunno what to do exactly, but that is my oppinion about this ship.
2. Cynabal - nerf hard - first of all bay bandwitch to 25/25. I wouldn't hit speed that much honestly - it's supposed to be fast right ? But hit it on EHP - so it's better fast or it dies fast - something that is not working atm.
3. Machariel - i'm not gonna comment too much there lack knowledge about battleship tier mostly. But my impression is that is superior to other battleships and fast some cruiser ( Phantasm T_T). I know battleship should be tanky , deals punch etc. But now it's also really fast on top of that. Something is wrong for sure.
I may edit some stuff later - if i will want to add something. I comment mostly on frig/cruiser , because honestly not much idea about battleships and all are good i guess, except for mach - too good obviously.
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Indira Himesama
Andorianisches Bergbaukonsortium
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 13:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Could the Blood Raider ships be rebuilt to focus on Nos use rather than Neut use? Possibly a role bonus that makes the nos function like neuts (ie drain to 0 cap and 5x transfer amount). When reading that over again for full understanding I came up with another thought: What about a role bonus that turns a nos into nos-neut... meaning it always neuts the cap, but the limitation that you can only drain up to the level to equal the absolute cap % will remain. Then if the target had more cap, it would drain, if it had less or equal it would just neutralize without draining... Just an idea, if you want to play around with that role bonus. Because I am sure there was a serious balancing reason to the nos to be not able to drain someone empty and still give you positive cap while the module is activated.
But good to hear the team is looking into the phantasm (and other pirate ships) uncouraging the player base to make suggestions. De Kus
Love hurts, love strengthens... |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1732
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 14:40:00 -
[93] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote: 2. Phantasm - first of all speed. Second of all speed. And again speed. It's as fast as damn Machariel in base speed value ... and before Machariel can fit more lows for nanos etc . But not going to compare it to battleship atm. Ship once again with 2 utility highs ? You really expect it to use cap for neuts when it struggles to shoot it guns and run it's tank ? I hope not. Tho on cruiser level i suggest you leave one utility high. Move extra one to either mid or low. For either more tank/cap boosters or low for more gank. 15 bandwitch / 15 bay is lol atm . With cruiser wide buff to drone bays/bandwitch (most notably omen 40/40) i suggest phantasm gets at least 25/50 and would strongly suggest even 50/50.
I'm just extracting the Phantasm bits - the thread is about the Phantasm.
I love the look of the ship - flew one quite a bit, trying to make it viable for at least PvE before trying it in PvP.
It sucks.
The above quoted comments pretty much sum it up. It needs cap BADLY, even with empty utility highs, it's very slow for a shield tanker, and the drone bay is laughable.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
492
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 04:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote: 2. Phantasm - first of all speed. Second of all speed. And again speed. It's as fast as damn Machariel in base speed value ... and before Machariel can fit more lows for nanos etc . But not going to compare it to battleship atm. Ship once again with 2 utility highs ? You really expect it to use cap for neuts when it struggles to shoot it guns and run it's tank ? I hope not. Tho on cruiser level i suggest you leave one utility high. Move extra one to either mid or low. For either more tank/cap boosters or low for more gank. 15 bandwitch / 15 bay is lol atm . With cruiser wide buff to drone bays/bandwitch (most notably omen 40/40) i suggest phantasm gets at least 25/50 and would strongly suggest even 50/50.
I'm just extracting the Phantasm bits - the thread is about the Phantasm. I love the look of the ship - flew one quite a bit, trying to make it viable for at least PvE before trying it in PvP. It sucks. The above quoted comments pretty much sum it up. It needs cap BADLY, even with empty utility highs, it's very slow for a shield tanker, and the drone bay is laughable.
I wouldn't mind seeing more drones, much more speed, more cap and more low slots.
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
492
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 04:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better. Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.
- Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.
- Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
- Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.
- Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.
- Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.
How is nightmare "Very Good" and Bhaalgorn just "Nice"
Besides PVE, the Bhaal is such an important and infinitely useful ship.
Whens the last time you've seen a nightmare PvP even? |
Larloch TheAncient
Corporation for Public Broadcasting What Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 12:32:00 -
[96] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better. Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.
- Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.
- Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
- Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.
- Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.
- Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.
How is nightmare "Very Good" and Bhaalgorn just "Nice" Besides PVE, the Bhaal is such an important and infinitely useful ship. Whens the last time you've seen a nightmare PvP even?
The amarr bship line is fantastic, thats why you dont see nightmares being used as often as say a macharial.
the mimnitar bship line is aweful imo, thats why you see more players going an alternate route if they have the isk.
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Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
141
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 12:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
Larloch TheAncient wrote: The amarr bship line is fantastic, thats why you dont see nightmares being used as often as say a macharial.
the mimnitar bship line is aweful imo, thats why you see more players going an alternate route if they have the isk.
I would agree with you, but it's more the fact that it's a Tornado with more tank, damage, and projection, as well as a (relatively) large drone bay. It's slower and less agile, but still more like a BC than a BS.
Also, the Minnie BS lineup isn't that bad. It's not great, but acceptable. |
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 13:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Cynabal and Machariel...
Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should. The "don't matter as much as they should" part is quite an understatement. Both ships work with Artilleries AND Autocannons, and are able to effortlessly fit a full rack of the BIGGEST ones in each category. Both have a 50% built-in falloff bonus with Gallente Cruiser/Battleship V. It's actually the other way around: their damage projection is nothing short of AMAZING. Something to consider while we reveal in their unsurpassed speed, agility and scan resolution, best of their classes easily. It's due time Cynabal and Machariel meet the Nerfhammer. Chill out. "Strongest" projectile battleship in the game being able to fit the largest guns isn't a problem. If you think cynabals are "OP" then you are doing it wrong. edit: does CCP even play their own game?
I'm pretty cool, mate.
We were discussing "poor damage projection" from the Machariel, which is not just "a non issue" > it's pretty much the other way round. The damage projection is incredible, which makes for bad balance when combined with great top speed and unmatched agility.
Cynabals are not "OP" per se. But they make all Minmatar cruisers and the Vagabond obsolete, in a way the Vigilant never did to the Deimos.
It should not be plainly "better" at everything, in my opinion.
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Sakkar Arenith
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
45
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 13:16:00 -
[99] - Quote
@Ytterbium
Concerning the Sanshas;
Mate may I suggest a complete reversal from the Laser/Shield platform?
Those of us who were around at that time, and even more so, those of us who were invested into RPing and making an art out of flying Sansha ships, were dumbfounded that someone decided them to be Shield tanking Laser boats..
The lore clearly states that sanshas extravagant hull design was due to advanced ablative armor tanking properties, his mad genius created alien hulls that didnt just look different, but had a purpose, namely making them really tough.
So, why then are we forced to use SHIELDS?! More tot he point, back then everyone was counting on armor tanking missile boats, because int he end THAT is what is missing in EVE.
How about revamping sansha vessels into active tanking, light weight, missile boats?
-low EHP -low/medium dps -medium cap -low pg
-fast and agile -7.5% armor resistance bonus per level -7.5% Armor repper bonus -some missile dps bonus of any kind, EM dmg if you want
That way youd have weird looking ships that have a purpose, arent overpowered and fill a truly unoccupied niche.
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DHB WildCat
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
178
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 13:22:00 -
[100] - Quote
To reply to the CCP post... about open to suggestions. I have flown all these ships a considerable amount of time and feel im fairly versed in them. So i hope some of these "ideas" will make sense. I wont write much about the frigs as to the fact that I do not know how to balance frigs as much as I do the cruiser / BS sized ships.
Guristas - Rattlesnake - a beast, love it with the new drone damage mods it can tank and gank, but is very slow so if anyone gets caught by it, its because they came into it. (Possible suggestion, boost drone hp on combat drones so its not so easy to destroy these type of ships main dps.)
Gila - Bonuses are missile velocity (sniper / kite) and 5% resists (brawler). The drone bonus is just cause its a drone boat. Now the bonuses are wierd like a mini ship. Do many things somewhat well but master nothing. Its almost built (on bonuses) to be a pure PVE ship. Now with drones, sniper isnt really an option. So maybe change the missile velocity bonus to rate of fire bonus and reduce HP on the ship a little so it cannot reach an insane passive tank like it currently has. Force it in close with an active tank.
Serpentis - Love these ships Vindi - Fine
Vigilant - only suggestion, since its blasters who cares about a falloff bonus. Maybe change it to something like the augorers hp per lvl bonus. Passive tank high dps, in your face.
Angel Cartel - the name of the game here is speed and agility. I like both of these ships. I really do, I do not believe that the balancing here lies so much in the ships / as it does with balancing Tracking enhancers. The can hit way to far without sacrificing much of anything. If the TE change is too much, then maybe change both ships falloff bonus ( the gallente skill, which is wierd since no gallente ships get a falloff bonus) to a gallente bonus such as drone hp (which wouldnt make much sense on these ships) or something like armor resist / or repper amount. Since they are half gallente make them armor tanks.
Blood Raiders - Bhallgorn - a beast with the right roles (no suggestions)
Ashimmu - lol where to begin! So tell me again why the bhaal has a bonus to web range, and the ashimmu has a bonus to web amount? All the other faction BS / Cruisers have the same bonuses. This is very wierd! This ship has bonuses to be a kiting / shield tank but the slot layout of an armor tanker. My suggestion would be to simply give this ship more powergrid. Trying to fit lasers and neuts / nos is VERY PG intensive and this ship simply doesnt have enough of it to fit lazers / neuts / and an armor tank that isnt laughable. Now this wont invade the pilgrim because of its lack of ability to warp cloak / td like a mofo / and lacks resists.
Finally my favorite and most experienced Sanshas
Nightmare - its fine, best ship in game if you are man enough to brawl.
Phantasm - its horrible, worst ship in game (faction). CAPACITOR! is a joke, you cant run the coffee maker in the pilots lounge longer than 5 min without having to get new batteries. Also why does this ship only have 14 fitting slots when every other faction cruiser has 15? Give it one more slot. Either mid so we can make a better shield tank / or low so we can make it faster. Right now the lack of that extraslot is killing it! So the extra slot along with a capacitor boost will put this ship right as rain!
I hope some of these ideas make sense and thanks for reading them. These are one mans ideas and I hope the mad mob wont be too harsh on me.
DHB-WildCat |
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Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
365
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 14:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
goldiiee wrote:So you want to turn it into a maelstrom? With 150% of the EHP, more drones, more speed, more agility, more scanres, more range, more DPS, more alpha, and enough slots to armor tank it ? Why not. And you can fit a smartbomb/neut on a mael, you know.
DHB WildCat wrote:Nightmare - its fine, best ship in game if you are man enough to brawl. The nightmare is fine if you have tengu links, crystals, improved blue pills and a 6b fit (have you seen Burn Eden ? I saw some good footages in it. Oh w---) Once the offgrid ganglinks will get removed... Not better than the average XASB mael.
On a side note, I would like to see a duel between you and Fon. A forum war, I mean. :3 |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1419
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 15:03:00 -
[102] - Quote
On thing that must be remembered is that we're talking about PIRATE faction ships, the bpcs for which come almost exclusively from exploration.
They are supposed to be awesome as they are among the most expensive sub caps in the game, even a bit "unbalanced" compared to damn near everything else. While I accept that my beloved mach is going to get "modified" (grumbles) i hope CCP understands they're dealing with many players favorite ships. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1419
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 15:10:00 -
[103] - Quote
Also, a word about the pirate faction ships and pve. i'd like to see a situation evolve where each pirate factions ship is given an edge concerning PVE on it's own faction.
In other words it would be nice if , for example, the Bhaalgorn was a better PVE ship in Blood Raider space than other pirate faction ships.
As it is now, I've had a better time using Rattlesnakes, Navy Ravens and Machariels against Bloods than their own ship. The pirate faction's own sub-capital ships should be better against that faction than anything save Marauders and maybe in some cases Tech3.
I don't have any specific suggestions, just putting this out there. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
365
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:On thing that must be remembered is that we're talking about PIRATE faction ships, the bpcs for which come almost exclusively from exploration. The Initiative has been farming like bots (oops) last year to get these cynabal BPCs.
You're wrong. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1421
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 19:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:On thing that must be remembered is that we're talking about PIRATE faction ships, the bpcs for which come almost exclusively from exploration. The Initiative has been farming like bots (oops) last year to get these cynabal BPCs. You're wrong.
Do you know the definition of the word "almost"? Maybe not, so let me rephrase. The bpcs come from exploration and null sec missions.
Better? |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Honey Badger Coalition
163
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 23:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
They also come from loyalty point store: http://www.ellatha.com/eve/LPSearch/phantasm/ |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
365
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 03:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Do you know the definition of the word "almost"? Maybe not, so let me rephrase. The bpcs come from exploration and null sec missions. And do you know the definition of "almost exclusively" ? Because a ****-ton of BPCs are coming from this LP store. Unless you're going to explain me that "almost exclusively" means in fact "well, only about half of it, anyway I WAS RIGHT AND I KNEW IT AND YOU'RE WRONG AH AH AH".
This way.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3154
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 04:58:00 -
[108] - Quote
You're better off doing plexes or running high sec missions. Yes, really.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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PaNtHeeRa
Rep-X Hashashin Cartel
97
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:21:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better. Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.
- Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.
- Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
- Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.
- Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.
- Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.
Skip the nerfing of any of these ships. The Angel ships are fine as they are... A VERY expensive and VERY skill intensive line up of ships. Buff the ships that need it and bring them all into line with each other. If that means raising the bar on all the pirate faction ships to the level of the Angel ships... SO BE IT!!!
That is the point of these pirate ships. To out perform all other T1 ships and equal or barely beat out T2 ships. Thats why we pay the ISK and skill time to fly them. They hurt to lose. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
493
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Sure angel ships are "OP" when you pimp fit them with faction goodies.
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To mare
Advanced Technology
171
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 10:13:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
i never use it because im a cheapo but i think the mach should get back the 6 turrets layout that would bring the ship inline cutting the dps a bit but keeping the speed agility advantage, a change like that would keep the ship viable for pvp and a bit less for pve, a agi speed nerf would totally cripple the thing for pvp and still keep its OPness in pve.
the cyna sometime i use it yeah its good but its very balanced imho with the vigilant which apparently need no tweakings its OP compared to the vaga and the share the same niche but that is a vaga proble and i hope it will be fixed on the T2 rebalance
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
421
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 10:31:00 -
[112] - Quote
PaNtHeeRa wrote:Skip the nerfing of any of these ships. The Angel ships are fine as they are... A VERY expensive and VERY skill intensive line up of ships. Buff the ships that need it and bring them all into line with each other. If that means raising the bar on all the pirate faction ships to the level of the Angel ships... SO BE IT!!!
That is the point of these pirate ships. To out perform all other T1 ships and equal or barely beat out T2 ships. Thats why we pay the ISK and skill time to fly them. They hurt to lose. Angel ships are expensive exactly because they perform very well and in style that is favoured these days by many. It's not like supplying Cynabals is much harder than Phantasms, but the former are sold like hot pies unlike latter.
I'm not sure if nerfing their defining trait is a good idea though. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
494
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 10:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:PaNtHeeRa wrote:Skip the nerfing of any of these ships. The Angel ships are fine as they are... A VERY expensive and VERY skill intensive line up of ships. Buff the ships that need it and bring them all into line with each other. If that means raising the bar on all the pirate faction ships to the level of the Angel ships... SO BE IT!!!
That is the point of these pirate ships. To out perform all other T1 ships and equal or barely beat out T2 ships. Thats why we pay the ISK and skill time to fly them. They hurt to lose. Angel ships are expensive exactly because they perform very well and in style that is favoured these days by many. It's not like supplying Cynabals is much harder than Phantasms, but the former are sold like hot pies unlike latter. I'm not sure if nerfing their defining trait is a good idea though.
I don't understand why CCP even thinks the cynabal needs nerfing.
Its just a little bit better vagabond. Big deal? |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
534
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 10:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:PaNtHeeRa wrote:Skip the nerfing of any of these ships. The Angel ships are fine as they are... A VERY expensive and VERY skill intensive line up of ships. Buff the ships that need it and bring them all into line with each other. If that means raising the bar on all the pirate faction ships to the level of the Angel ships... SO BE IT!!!
That is the point of these pirate ships. To out perform all other T1 ships and equal or barely beat out T2 ships. Thats why we pay the ISK and skill time to fly them. They hurt to lose. Angel ships are expensive exactly because they perform very well and in style that is favoured these days by many. It's not like supplying Cynabals is much harder than Phantasms, but the former are sold like hot pies unlike latter. I'm not sure if nerfing their defining trait is a good idea though.
The CCP comments in this very thread suggest that they're happy with its defining feature of mobility. They suggest the problem lies in damage projection and EHP. Sounds reasonable enough to me.
On a different note, one reason why the Angel ships are expensive is because of high demand. You're at liberty to argue that they're balanced because they're expensive, but just cast your mind back to CCP's responses to that line of reasoning in the past... |
Hulasikaly Wada
G.P.S. Global Private Security Agency
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 12:37:00 -
[115] - Quote
In my opinion Sansha ships must be brute base shield EHP+ brute laser DPS , with 1 of the worst agility/speed ATM Nightmares only shine on laser dps because of 2 secondary effects ( shield tanking free up low slot and the ability to fit tachyons without mods ) and all Sansha ships are lacking effective turrets compared to other laser boats ( 10 for Nm as for Oracle and for Abaddon, and those last 2 can effectively fit a dps t2 rig with the cheapest not having cap problems ) . True 2 utility hi-slots are really a lot, my suggestion is less base DMG mod ( 75-80% ) and an extra turret hard point making more effective turrets ( around 11 for NM , to give some direct special advantage over t1 amar hulls ) plus a cap saving effect like in almost good amarr ships ( ok , was already built-in into the 100% dmg bonus , fix somehow )
Hula |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
124
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:51:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
The problem with the Nightmare rears its head when you're putting it in a PVP context. In the age of ASBs, there's no compelling reason to choose it over something else (say, a Maelstrom) simply because you'll want to dual X-L ASB it, but you still need a cap booster to run your guns.
Why not just use a ship that has a shield boost bonus and its guns don't need capacitor to run... trade the spikes in for sails. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
366
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:55:00 -
[117] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ed: I just took a look at the Phantasm. Looks like ~1k ISK/LP to cash out on Phantasms. Looks like 1 Phantasm sells on average per day in a major market hub. I'm calling bullshit. I was talking about the cynabal, bro. o/ |
Lord Zek
Abnormal Experience Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
2
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Give Sansha TD bonus :) (if you check forum they seem to have that thing on every ship they fly )
Seriously if i was hell bent to make Amarr miserable (Sansha Pirate)). Id put together armor tanked (em/therm top) missle boats with TD bonus. thehehe |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
524
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:52:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships. How unique are they/the bonus allowed to be? Neuts and lasers are as already stated an iffy concept so the main hurdle is capacitor .. we currently have two primary capacitor booster systems, so why not slap a role bonus on them. 1. Superior conduit designs and layouts allow for 50% more energy to be gained when expending cap booster charges, or 2. Superior conduit designs and layouts doubles the effects of using batteries (neut feedback and raw cap).
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched. Again, how unique do you want them? Obvious solution is to give them the Amarr TD bonus, when/if TDs are changed to work on missiles it would enhance the kiting friendliless (dependent on TE changes) .. Another way to achieve (sort of) the same is to give them partial eWar immunity, say 10%/lvl decrease in effectiveness of eWar used against them and make the tracking a static role bonus .. again, when/if TDs are changed. Should give them a leg up when used for the much-blown-horn of small-gang harassing/killing a larger.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should. Hit them with the current tier3 BC spreadsheet: Fast, nimble but flimsier than wet cardboard boxes .. afford them enough fittings to let people do (almost) what they want with available slots and let 'er rip.
You (CCP, not you specifically although you might have had a hand in them ) did a bang-up job with the tournament prize ships and their bonuses. As RP focused, I have always thought of the pirate factions as being outside of society finding their own paths so is a little disheartening to see their ships being nothing more than souped up family sedans and would love for them to have truly unique attributes. In short: Don the tourny prize ship thinking cap when re-evaluating the pirate ships!
Note: I consider the Angel line the poster boys of the Winmatar era and my hate for that dictate that I do not give them much thought, hence the bland tier3 BC suggestion. |
HazeInADaze
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:37:00 -
[120] - Quote
Blood Raiders could grant NOS bonus to Neuts or make NOS always work. No range buff. Webs are redundant to the Serpentis, so why not a point range bonus? A ship with a long range scram that latches on and feeds on the other ships cap. Maybe lean to an active rep style that doesnt require boosters. One is called a Succubus. The gal rep bonus, or the amarr resist for more flexibility. Or a half dose of each for something new. |
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