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GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.10 12:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey all!
Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?
ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.
Understandably this may mean null sec indys so if u wanna post via an alt im cool with that too.
thanks! \o/ |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3428
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Posted - 2013.02.10 13:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Hey all!
Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?
ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.
Understandably this may mean null sec indys so if u wanna post via an alt im cool with that too.
thanks! \o/
Oh, I'm sure there are plenty.
What I want to know is why this would be important to know, and important enough to start a thread, and what you expect to gain from knowing it ? Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
166
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Posted - 2013.02.10 13:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?
ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.
So you're looking for people who mine, refine, copy, invent, do PI, mine moons, react moon mats and finally manufacture the final item?
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Sugar Bunny InSpace
Toward the Terra
2
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Response to your question: - sorry I don't fulfill all the criterias |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?
ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product. So you're looking for people who mine, refine, copy, invent, do PI, mine moons, react moon mats and finally manufacture the final item?
well more the moon mining from scratch aspect all the way to final production. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3428
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: its more looking for some people with a good viewpoint about the relationship between moons, their location (rough) their output and what these materials are eventually turned into with respect to the final products racial diversity.
The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself.
I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos.
BTW, this would not be an efficient process unless one is a member of one of those Large Sec Alliances, and even then doing this entire chain solo would be next to impossible.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2645
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
As a bonus, you're looking for individuals who own moons literally all over the map. I'm pretty certain nobody owns one of every moon. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2645
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself.
Accurate as always. Explains why you can't buy Tech in Jita and why the reaction farm I used to run always ran at a loss, buying the scraps that the big alliances couldn't use. Oh, neither of those are true.
Alliances generally dump their moon goo on the market. They do this because Alliance income sources need to be largely passive or it essentially boils down to some guy donating ISK to the Alliance. Reaction farms are not particularly passive. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
well the thing i really wanna talk about it something i noticed when building a diagram charting the r8's and 16's through to final t2 components, but with data about how many of those moons are in highsec/lowsec, and in what region.
i found a surprising disparity in the conclusion i came to compared to this quote from CCP's wiki about t2 component production.
CCP Evelopedia wrote:Studying these tables helps understand demand for certain advanced materials, their inputs, and ultimately raw materials gathered from the moons to create them. It also explains why certain races use certain materials - because the moons in and around those empire space contain a greater concentration of those minerals. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
166
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos.
It does.
The 4 racially different materials are: Tungsten Carbide (used in Amarr components) Titanium Carbide (used in Caldari components) Fernite Carbide (used in Minmatar components) Crystallite Carbide (used in Gallente components)
When you go back to raw materials, each of those requires a different raw mat that isn't used in any other simple reaction
Tungsten Carbide requires Tungsten Titanium Carbide requires Titanium Fernite Carbide requires Scandium Crystallite Carbide requires Cobalt |
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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2646
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Posted - 2013.02.10 14:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:well the thing i really wanna talk about it something i noticed when building a diagram charting the r8's and 16's through to final t2 components, but with data about how many of those moons are in highsec/lowsec, and in what region. i found a surprising disparity in the conclusion i came to compared to this quote from CCP's wiki about t2 component production.CCP Evelopedia wrote:Studying these tables helps understand demand for certain advanced materials, their inputs, and ultimately raw materials gathered from the moons to create them. It also explains why certain races use certain materials - because the moons in and around those empire space contain a greater concentration of those minerals.
No mine-able moons exist in HS (or .4 space, or WHs). All the rest are distributed either randomly or regionally throughout Lowsec and Nullsec. Dotlan has partial lists of moons for some areas.
I think the R8s are the racial ones. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
well my problem for quite a while is getting accurate reliable information, and levering reliable complete info about moons in null sec is laughable, and well... i really dont have the time to go and drop tens of thousands of probes on every moon in null sec.
so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess!
an example of the thing that puzzles me is the sheer amount of cobalt moons in amarr space compared to gallente space. Its even higher in average % chance of cobalt moons in an amarr system compared to a gallente system. (as theres over 900+ systems essentially considered amarrian vs less than half that of systems considered gallente)
Heres the table i put together just fyi |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
166
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess!
It's not that they're not there. Afaik you can survey a moon even in highsec. You cannot anchor a moon mining module in 0.4 or above or in WH space, hence you can't mine the moons at all above 0.3. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2646
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:well my problem for quite a while is getting accurate reliable information, and levering reliable complete info about moons in null sec is laughable, and well... i really dont have the time to go and drop tens of thousands of probes on every moon in null sec. so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess! an example of the thing that puzzles me is the sheer amount of cobalt moons in amarr space compared to gallente space. Its even higher in average % chance of cobalt moons in an amarr system compared to a gallente system. (as theres over 900+ systems essentially considered amarrian vs less than half that of systems considered gallente) Heres the table i put together just fyi
There are no Mineable moons in .4 or above because you cannot mine moons in .4 or above.
There are actually 264,611 mineable moons. You're having trouble finding accurate, public information, because there is no accurate, complete list of moons anywhere.
If you notice, there are far more Cobalt moons overall listed on Dotlan in LS than any other R8. Dotlan simply isn't accurate. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
289
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
its actually kind of funny, there are a ton more cobalt moons in genesis (amarr space) then there is in essence (gallente space) though thats just a comparison between two regions and doesnt define anything as a whole.
there isnt a huge amount of attention paid to lore when it comes to goo distribution but it does in general follow.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:There are actually 264,611 mineable moons. You're having trouble finding accurate, public information, because there is no accurate, complete list of moons anywhere.
the issue there is if i tried to collect the data myself, say i launched a survey probe 1 a minute (a massively tall order tbh), 24 hours a day (pretty much impossible due to downtime) itd still take me close to 6 months to do so. thats not even considering itd cost me approximately 20Bil in survey probes.
with that knowledge alone i can understand why accurate and complete moon data is a closely guarded secret.
the questions rolling around in my head are:
- Why does it appear (even with less than totally accurate info) that r8's and r16's are not exactly matched in location with what theyre used to make racially.
- Why is it only r 8's and r16's contribute to the racial differences to t2 ships?
- Can the proposed ring mining help alleviate any issue with this, if there even is one?
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3428
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos. It does. The 4 racially different materials are: Tungsten Carbide (used in Amarr components) Titanium Carbide (used in Caldari components) Fernite Carbide (used in Minmatar components) Crystallite Carbide (used in Gallente components) When you go back to raw materials, each of those requires a different raw mat that isn't used in any other simple reaction Tungsten Carbide requires Tungsten Titanium Carbide requires Titanium Fernite Carbide requires Scandium Crystallite Carbide requires Cobalt
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3428
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself. Accurate as always. Explains why you can't buy Tech in Jita and why the reaction farm I used to run always ran at a loss, buying the scraps that the big alliances couldn't use. Oh, neither of those are true. Alliances generally dump their moon goo on the market. They do this because Alliance income sources need to be largely passive or it essentially boils down to some guy donating ISK to the Alliance. Reaction farms are not particularly passive.
Both of our comments are entirely too speculative and subjective and not universal enough to be 'rules' or 'game information', and neither requires comment. Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
289
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
It has been my experience that all the best moons are controlled by alliances and they dump them onto the market rather then react them themselves. I had a long discussion one time with an alliance rep who also happened to manage the tech moon they owned.
he wasnt open to reacting the tech with platinum (despite having the platin in the same system) it seemed to be too much work for an alliance hand to do
It is usually the nonalliance moons that make the useful parts (the carbonides and ferrogels) for public consumption though many smaller reactors can also make that stuff.
Ruby is generally right though i often disagree with his tone, and Krixtal is often partly right but with a sunnier disposition. Listen to who you want to.
EDIT - Oh to the op, yeah i built a Phobos that way once, once. as getting the parts and all that was a huge hassle, securing the moons, (i didnt secure a tech moon just got some of the stuff direct) Its a huge pain and completely inefficient. If youa re thinking about it, I suggest starting at invention and working your way backwards rather then starting at goo. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Skorpynekomimi
415
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Doing it yourself all the way up is horribly time-intensive. I helped a friend mine minerals for a carrier once, and it was days of grinding rocks. Days and days and days. Cycle, cycle, warp, dock, undock, warp, cycle, cycle, warp, dock, undock, ad nauseam.
I have since kicked the mining habit, unless I'm SERIOUSLY low on ISK. It's just so much quicker and easier to bulk-buy off the market, queue up jobs, and profit that way. I'm limited to the difference between mineral price and sell prices of the item, but the sheer speed at which the whole chain takes place makes up for it, and then some. I imagine moon mining, reacting things, and so forth would be just as inefficient.
How far do you want to go? Making your own fuel blocks for the PoS? Extracting the P0 stuff yourself and factorying it up to materials? Mining all the ice yourself to fill up the fuel blocks?
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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2647
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:RubyPorto wrote:There are actually 264,611 mineable moons. You're having trouble finding accurate, public information, because there is no accurate, complete list of moons anywhere. the issue there is if i tried to collect the data myself, say i launched a survey probe 1 a minute (a massively tall order tbh), 24 hours a day (pretty much impossible due to downtime) itd still take me close to 6 months to do so. thats not even considering itd cost me approximately 20Bil in survey probes. with that knowledge alone i can understand why accurate and complete moon data is a closely guarded secret. the questions rolling around in my head are:
- Why does it appear (even with less than totally accurate info) that r8's and r16's are not exactly matched in location with what theyre used to make racially.
- Why is it only r 8's and r16's contribute to the racial differences to t2 ships?
- Can the proposed ring mining help alleviate any issue with this, if there even is one?
I'm not suggesting that you collect the data yourself. I would never wish that on my worst enemy. I'm just trying to explain why there is no accurate and complete moon data, secret or otherwise. GSF probably has the most complete listing, and I honestly wouldn't be totally shocked if they were willing to give you a rough statistical breakdown of moons by region if you asked the right people, but I would be shocked if it were anywhere close to being considered "complete."
To answer your questions (in an accurate, but mostly not exactly useful way): 1) Because that's how it turned out when CCP seeded the moons back in the Castor expansion. Or it's an artifact of the very non-random incompleteness of your data. 2) Because that's how CCP decided to balance T2 production in 2003. 3) There really is no issue with R8s, they're too common. The primary issue is with one regional R32 being thrust into the position of absolute bottleneck by a combination of r64 alchemy and a "rebalancing" of the material costs of components (and the componant costs of ships). Alchemy on its own would have probably reduced the value of r64s sufficiently to deal with the complaints of the time. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
DrBmN
Axial tilt Malefic Aspects
9
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you are lucky and find a harvestable moon somewhere in low sec or 0.0, and if you are even more lucky and its not a gas moon, iam preety sure you can make some profit out of it.
But be aware, it takes alot of planning, hauling, effort.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
To answer your questions (in an accurate, but mostly not exactly useful way): 1) Because that's how it turned out when CCP seeded the moons back in the Castor expansion. Or it's an artifact of the very non-random incompleteness of your data. 2) Because that's how CCP decided to balance T2 production in 2003. 3) There really is no issue with R8s, they're too common. The primary issue is with one regional R32 being thrust into the position of absolute bottleneck by a combination of r64 alchemy and a "rebalancing" of the material costs of components (and the componant costs of ships). Alchemy on its own would have probably reduced the value of r64s sufficiently to deal with the complaints of the time.
thanks ruby for trying to answer them to the best you can. #1 i cant really build upon for obvious reasons, unless i decide to do something mental and do the most tedious thing in eve for such an extended length of time that i could quite possibly go insane or become suicidal!
#2 however has depth and room for a discussion though as it is a system that could do with updating and possible re-balancing.
if r32's are moved into the area of "required materials for racial t2 components" instead of a component of the shared pool of t2 components used by all races, it will alleviate the bottleneck, but not remove it entirely. Tech would be needed for all caldari t2 stuff (ships/missiles/some shield mods etc...) and the others could be racialized (:S) in the same way. Plus the location of most of the tech moons will make sense too!
#3 most people dont moon mine r8's or at least go straight past them when looking for moons to mine, 90% of that is because material mined needs to offset the POS fuel and logistics required to move it.
Can r4's/8's be considered to be the main drops from ring mining? Do many null sec corps make money on small POS's mining r8's? |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2665
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Posted - 2013.02.12 03:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't think racializing R32s the way R8s are is the way to go.
R32s were spread out the way they were in a vain attempt to foster interregional trade in Null (everyone shipped it to Jita instead), while R64s were intended to be the bottleneck (and thus spread all over the map, with differing concentrations to provide for "better" and "worse" space). Rejiggering everything to return R64s to their intended place as bottlenecks is, IMO, the best option (with Alchemy remaining as a pressure release, ofc).
From my reaction spreadsheet: MaterialMining Gross Income (MIL) Atmospheric Gases5.41 Cadmium166.81 Caesium168.01 Chromium189.86 Cobalt237.89 Dysprosium638.42 Evaporite Deposits39.31 Hafnium135.48 Hydrocarbons11.02 Mercury446.88 Neodymium3,360.37 Platinum574.56 Promethium313.57 Scandium111.37 Silicates57.15 Technetium5,644.88 Thulium117.47 Titanium133.74 Tungsten45.77 Vanadium211.82
Selling to buy orders (via EVE-Central), and monthly income working on a 28 day month. Judge for yourself what's worth running a small tower on (because I'm too lazy to :math:). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
381
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Posted - 2013.02.14 04:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Hey all!
Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?
ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.
Understandably this may mean null sec indys so if u wanna post via an alt im cool with that too.
thanks! \o/
In actuality its more along the lines of Economy, you can say own a platinum moon or 3 but will still need different mats others produce, so you would sale your excess platinum for their excess cobalt, kind of an exchange but ISK being the Medium.
as for producing EVERYTHING, that's kind of tough for a single person, besides I think CCP would make sure something bad happens, because its simple, if you don't share some of your monopoly with others here, then expect a nerf shortly thereafter. |
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