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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Wescro
Tash-Murkon Amalgamated Security
234
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Posted - 2013.02.12 09:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you haven't already read the EVE Uni forum post or the Reddit post linking to it, here it is. Protect your spacebucks! They banning everyone out here without recourse.
On a more serious note, I hope CCP realizes this is unacceptable. Banning bots is the lords work, but there has to be a fair dispute resolution process. The above story is not only a display of incompetence, its sheer malice towards a respected member of the community. It's a rare blight on CCPs otherwise decent track record of being responsive to the community. (sarcasm?)
For what it's worth I hope this forum post and discussion will present a united response to Team Securitys arbitrary banning of "John" and result in positive change for the EVE playerbase. James 315-á-áis the only pro-sandbox candidate running for CSM 8. Resist the theme-park invasion from dying MMOs like WoW! Keep the only sandbox MMO alive! Vote 315 4 CSM8!!! |
Lovely Dumplings
Lambda Mining
62
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd really hate to see this being used in a meta-game way. I won't mention the specifics on how, of course, but the bright people of EVE will see where I'm going. I support James 315, and mine according to the-áTHE NEW HALAIMA CODE. Vote James 315, the CSM Rep Highsec needs. www.minerbumping.com |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
251
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well, we know one side of the medal now. I am sure CCP doesn't act like that out of nothing.
www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance |
Jada Maroo
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
1012
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'll be interested to see if CCP tries to lock and bury this thread. It will be a good measure of whether they are still the "new" CCP or slouching back toward the old CCP.
If people are being wrongly accused and the security team doesn't have any oversight, and multiple people report being told to just go away, that's a startling lack of professionalism.
Either way, CCP should explain their side. |
Le Badass
Zealots of Bob
55
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Potentially disturbing story. The reply that the security guy didn't care about the player base response was a bit disappointing to read. Too bad this thread will probably "disappear". More facts, especially from CCP's side, would be greatly appreciated. On the other hand, this is Eve and the entire thread could be trolling or a scam of some sort - This also wouldn't surprise me. |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
I, too, take every player for their word and white knight for them Follow me on twitter |
Nyla Skin
Maximum fun chamber
225
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Colonel Xaven wrote:Well, we know one side of the medal now. I am sure CCP doesn't act like that out of nothing.
You base this assumption on what?
I have always (since I started eve in 2006-2007) considered their behaviour in security matters to be completely arbitrary. Part of the reason why they bring this bad rap on themselves.
It is already a bad sign that you cannot discuss moderation on these forums, allowing them to ignore any claims on their suspicious activity.
This is less about whether this guy was guilty or not. This is about the behaviour of Eve security teams. There should be more transparency. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
749
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
The discussion on the EVE forums is pretty cringeworthy but they have a valid point:
Ever since the reorganization in late 2011 Internal Affairs has been part of the security team (source).
It's completely unclear if there is any sort of independent oversight of the security team.
(iirc IA had been part of the statistics team prior to the reorganization) I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
305
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd get more people "playing" like this. while i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Abrazzar
729
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Transparent security is like an oxymoron. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
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Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
41
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.
Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
305
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay. Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing
That's just semantics, really. You are using 3rd party programs to do what would be impossible otherwise. If this guy was using some script to update 30 market orders per minute, he deserved what he got. I don't care about some boneheaded distinction between script, macros, bots or whatever, it's the deed that counts. The rest is just rules lawyering. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
41
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay. Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing That's just semantics, really. You are using 3rd party programs to do what would be impossible otherwise. If this guy was using some script to update 30 market orders per minute, he deserved what he got. I don't care about some boneheaded distinction between script, macros, bots or whatever, it's the deed that counts. The rest is just rules lawyering.
But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6668
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though?
Yes it does, actually. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
41
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though? Yes it does, actually.
I'll have to look then, unless some one can point me to a link. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2346
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.
Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
41
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
Ok ty, I stand corrected then. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
751
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Andski wrote:Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though? Yes it does, actually. indeed, there is only one kind of type macro allowed in this game and that is the macros provided by gaming keyboards like the G15 and Sidewinder X series. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2346
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.
Because ISboxer is allowed. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Lovely Dumplings
Lambda Mining
63
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
Read in that light, I actually agree. A bot *IS* a bot, makes no diffo if you're sitting in front of the KB while it runs, or off mowing the lawn. I support James 315, and mine according to the-áTHE NEW HALAIMA CODE. Vote James 315, the CSM Rep Highsec needs. www.minerbumping.com |
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Tauranon
Weeesearch
124
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay. Because ISboxer is allowed.
Yeah ISBoxer runs clients normally with normal click rates and normal action rates.
In any case it sounds like
(a) CCP discovered him outperforming humans (or by looking for massive earners and checking) b) CCP gave him a first strike and let him ride with his 300bil, and that (c) giving first-strike assets on to other players is going to cause CCP to confiscate - as that action becomes largely indistinguishable from RMT as far as CCP can tell.
I can't feel its unfair or should be let slide just because it was e-uni that recieved the first-strike assets.
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Wescro
Tash-Murkon Amalgamated Security
238
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Maybe my impression is incorrect here, but I was imagining his "in-game browser script" to not be very different from how EVE-Central calculates profitable trade items for haulers. The reason I say that is arbitrary is because if you stretch it, simply opening a notepad and writing down "buy x units of y" could be considered
Quote:...patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency...
Now if he was automating keypresses and clicks, then I guess we can all agree it was wrong. But simply using a third party script that doesn't interact with the client, aka doesn't play the game for him, that should be ok. James 315-á-áis the only pro-sandbox candidate running for CSM 8. Resist the theme-park invasion from dying MMOs like WoW! Keep the only sandbox MMO alive! Vote 315 4 CSM8!!! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6669
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Now let's be honest, if that thread was about somebody in TEST or Goonswarm the community's reaction would have been "lol botter." Let's not pretend otherwise. The fact that this guy is in an ~honourable~ corp based in hisec seems to indicate, to some, that he plays within the rules, when for all we know he's been running a market bot the whole time and is just trying to start drama in response to being punished appropriately.
"But hurr they didn't remove the ISK until he sent it to E-UNI!"
The ISK wasn't there when he was banned - he liquidated his assets after the suspension period was over.
Quote:He then proceeded to liquidate his assets, and talked to one of the E-UNI directors
So yes, it's completely within reason that this guy is a botter and he's just being a babby about being handed the same punishment that everyone gets for botting, with an exception perhaps being that his gains from botting were not removed. Seriously, try updating 30 orders in a minute even with some fancy IGB page that says what price to set them to. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises Project Wildfire
33
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
If he created what was effectively his own UI, CCP is foolish to ban someone for improving on the pile of **** they've created. Games like WoW and TSW have allowed user created UI's, and benefited massively from their players efforts, to this day I don't understand why CCP wastes massive amounts of developer time making small UI tweaks their players could do for them.
The market UI is a prime example, I mean seriously, how many of you have actually gone through and updated a few hundred orders? It's a tedious pain in the ass, and for no good reason. CCP needs to either allow market bots (just like the real world), or fix the UI so there isn't such an incentive to use them. And I say that completely regardless of whether the case discussed in the OP involves botting or not. |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
307
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay. Because ISboxer is allowed.
I know. Can't say i approve, though. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Whitehound
749
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
I quote from the website:
Quote:... It transpires that GÇ£JohnGÇ¥ had been temporarily banned from EVE as CCPs GÇÿTeam SecurityGÇÖ had identified his actions as GÇÿsuspectGÇÖ - he was a station trader, and a very good one at that, playing trade markets in EVE like a professional, using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself - the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time. ...
This guy changed a single market order within only 2 seconds! Think about it... You find the order, right click it and enter the price change. All within just 2 seconds.
I trade, too, but I could not ever change 300 orders with a steady pace of 2 seconds per order and for the duration of 10-20 minutes.
EULA wrote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
751
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
399
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
lmbo if an evil goonie or a stupid testie said the same thing y'all be like DEATH TO ALL MARKET BOTTERS
edit: i didnt hit refresh so SUCK IT ANDSKI Follow me on twitter |
Whitehound
749
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand. Frankly, a bot could not be faster than this guy. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
445
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Posted - 2013.02.12 10:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'm really not surprised by this action... And due to it being a personal matter with a Biomassed toon, we'll know nothing... Expect either a nice and shiny lock on this thread, or a trip to the Bermuda Triangle...
*insert witty saying here* twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
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