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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
313
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:41:00 -
[211] - Quote
Dante Uisen wrote:If you export the market data as xml using the in-game market feature to do so, and use it to generate spreadsheets are you then breaking the "facilitate acquisition of currency at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"?
Everyone doing any kind of serious trading are using third-party software, to increase performance. Some use script and programs to generate date rich cache files for parsing, other use spreadsheets to calculate profits etc.
So how exactly does Excel interface with your game client?
Fair warning: This is a trap question to make you look like an idiot when you reply. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2368
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:41:00 -
[212] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Le Badass wrote:Potentially disturbing story. The reply that the security guy didn't care about the player base response was a bit disappointing to read. Indeed. At the very least, issues of this sort need some post-mortem transparency. 300Bn ISK is a lot to just wipe off the map - I'd like to see a DevBlog outlining the evidence and rational behind the decision for large-value actions like this. CCP wants trust from the player base - A little openness would go a long way.
Perhaps you could try reading the rest of the thread? Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
484
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:41:00 -
[213] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:Andski wrote:Now let's be honest, if that thread was about somebody in TEST or Goonswarm the community's reaction would have been "lol botter." Let's not pretend otherwise. The fact that this guy is in an ~honourable~ corp based in hisec seems to indicate, to some, that he plays within the rules, when for all we know he's been running a market bot the whole time and is just trying to start drama in response to being punished appropriately. "But hurr they didn't remove the ISK until he sent it to E-UNI!" The ISK wasn't there when he was banned - he liquidated his assets after the suspension period was over. Quote:He then proceeded to liquidate his assets, and talked to one of the E-UNI directors So yes, it's completely within reason that this guy is a botter and he's just being a babby about being handed the same punishment that everyone gets for botting, with an exception perhaps being that his gains from botting were not removed. Seriously, try updating 30 orders in a minute even with some fancy IGB page that says what price to set them to. YES for the love of all that is HOLLY lets make this about goofswarm or testikal. Come on people you are ignoring the attention whores. Please shift the convo to where it needs to be.
The revered HollyShocker 2inthestink has spoken. |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:41:00 -
[214] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The games EULAs only define a binding contract (usually completely limiting the rights of the consumer) on what's allowed or not. Not on what's illegal. The EULA can be changed by CCP at any time and they can ask you to accept it again at which point you can decide to biomass or, well, accept it. Stop arguing. There is nothing to win here. CCP Sreegs has got the last word and we get to respect it.
Do you seriously have a problem with this? If so then you should biomass now. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:43:00 -
[215] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote:Rofl. I guess me and about 3/4ths of eve will get banned soon then. He said we won't get banned today. Your panic and paranoia has eaten your whole brain, hasn't it? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
0
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Eve is a sandbox game, but there have to be lines drawn in the sand. Otherwise, it would just be a sea of ambiguity. The EULA is MORE THAN CLEAR on the subject. At first I was pretty perturbed at CCP's alleged actions. At this point, however, it's quite obvious that they only did what had to be done. Instead of being disgusted with CCP as I was formerly, that disgust has now transposed to E-UNI for such a monstrous effort to create stigma in a game we should all hope only grows. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
281
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:43:00 -
[217] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
so would a calculator with a 000 key be against the EULA here? technically its 3rd party software in 3rd party hardware utilising a pseudo-macro to input/manipulate data faster than one would with regular gameplay.
i dont even need to click the eve menu go to accessories and bring up the calculator in game, thats 3 less clicks anyone else whould have to do.
in that sense its an auto open macro infested i win button. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1767
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:44:00 -
[218] - Quote
Quote:...as well as custom built tools...
Quote:...the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
Are you really telling me that people read this and didn't realize that the guy was running a market bot?
The second one in particular is NOT a poorly written explination of what "john" was doing.
If you think you're updating 30 orders a minute by hand, you're a delusional **** or lying. It takes longer then 2 seconds to update a single order.
I spend 20 minutes just updating a handful of my 200+ orders. It takes 10 minutes just to scroll through my entire list without making any adjustments.
Guy bots. Gets caught.
Strike one.
Botter knows he's being watched now. Is pissed. Quits.
What a shocker, I've NEVER seen this ever happen before. He quit in this fashion because he's a ******* botter. It took blizzard almost a year to catch my boy running 4 bots. He'd run dungeons with his main, while the other 4 were automated. Blizzard temp banned the 4, and sent an email to the account for the one that wasn't botting, warning that this was his first warning.
He didn't ***** about it, he laughed, gave his absurd amount of gold to a friends guild, and quit.
The run of the mill botter, the guy who's doing it just because they enjoy it and aren't RMTing anything, rarely stick around once they've been caught. They will either do it till they are permenantly banned or quit.
Believe it or not, there are guys out there that only enjoy playing a game when they can cheat it. "John" was a poor sport.
Either he, or an EVE-uni friend, possibly both, are trying to use the corporation to give "john" some credibility. There's nothing worse then a cheater that cries when they lose the game. |
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
366
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:45:00 -
[219] - Quote
Aryndel Vyst wrote:So does that guy still get to walk at graduation for EVE Uni or does he have to come back for summer school?
According to the link OP kindly provided, that guy did get his graduation, I quote:
"...and one of the few members I instantly awarded the Graduate title and medal." Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Mangala Solaris for CSM 8 |
digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:46:00 -
[220] - Quote
Hey guys, I'm posting in a Eve-Uni whine thread where half of the posters know absolutely **** about computer security or internet law.
I love how most people ignore the fact that Eve University was involved in a money laundering scheme and yet someone needs to watch those watchers!
Hold on guys, I'm going to go make a bunch of isk and suddenly quit the game! Be right back! |
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1001
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:46:00 -
[221] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Whitehound wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Cotic wrote:Cursan Voran wrote:Sreegs you have won this one by a knockout.
Go do something else for a few hours and let us players deal with the dicks in this thread... This. Tesco tinfoil (infected with horse meat) is selling out like nothing I've ever seen before. he just told a few thousand unsuspecting evemon users that they are in violation of the EULA. what do you expect to happen? EVEMon does not touch local files from what I know. EVEMon uses the EVE API. There is a thread on the forums for it and CCP has not locked it. So I understand that this tool is officially allowed and it has been for a long time now. I have NEVER found a player with less clue about how EvE works on many threads and yet he keeps to diligently dig himself into a deeper and deeper hole. Please, seriously stop posting and start learning.
Read a sample of his other posts. Then it will all become clear. The display of "intelligence" by this guy is prevalent throughout. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3799
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:46:00 -
[222] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote:Rofl. I guess me and about 3/4ths of eve will get banned soon then. Including you, since you already admitted you used evemon to scrap cache files. Being ignorant of the law doesn't mean your not liable, so don't say "I'm innocent because i didn't know."
The fun thing is that he's getting all incensed and then HE breached the EULA (assuming CCP Screegs words would be enforced) while I have never enabled EvE Mon cache scraping. Actually I am not using EvE Mon since months.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:47:00 -
[223] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Thur Barbek wrote:Rofl. I guess me and about 3/4ths of eve will get banned soon then. He said we won't get banned today. Your panic and paranoia has eaten your whole brain, hasn't it?
Because "Soon" equals today right? I used the exact same terminology, "soon" that CCP Sreegs used. Please try to white knight harder. |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:47:00 -
[224] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Thur Barbek wrote:Rofl. I guess me and about 3/4ths of eve will get banned soon then. Including you, since you already admitted you used evemon to scrap cache files. Being ignorant of the law doesn't mean your not liable, so don't say "I'm innocent because i didn't know." The fun thing is that he's getting all incensed and then HE breached the EULA (assuming CCP Screegs words would be enforced) while I have never enabled EvE Mon cache scraping. Actually I am not using EvE Mon since months. **** happens. And I am not incensed, but amazed how you jump all over the place. I am staying calm and observant and try to do right by CCP. You should give it a try. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Enta en Bauldry
EVE University Ivy League
7
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:47:00 -
[225] - Quote
The **** is wrong with all you people. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3799
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:48:00 -
[226] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The games EULAs only define a binding contract (usually completely limiting the rights of the consumer) on what's allowed or not. Not on what's illegal. The EULA can be changed by CCP at any time and they can ask you to accept it again at which point you can decide to biomass or, well, accept it. Stop arguing. There is nothing to win here. CCP Sreegs has got the last word and we get to respect it. Do you seriously have a problem with this? If so then you should biomass now.
The only one with a problem right here is you, surrounded by people kindly trying to explain your things and you headbutting left and right.
I have no issue whatsoever. I don't need to alter the client or anything to smoke someone's butt in the markets.
I don't even have the issue of having started EvE Mon. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2368
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:49:00 -
[227] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. so would a calculator with a 000 key be against the EULA here? technically its 3rd party software in 3rd party hardware utilising a pseudo-macro to input/manipulate data faster than one would with regular gameplay. i dont even need to click the eve menu go to accessories and bring up the calculator in game, thats 3 less clicks anyone else whould have to do. in that sense its an auto open macro infested i win button.
The EVE client allows the shortcut by design, so no. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:52:00 -
[228] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The only one with a problem right here is you, surrounded by people kindly trying to explain your things and you headbutting left and right. I do what now? I did not know I could do this.
And I think I should do it more often, because it sounds fun. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
281
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:52:00 -
[229] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The EVE client allows the shortcut by design, so no.
didnt realise the eve calculator had a 000 button, nice to know though. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
586
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:53:00 -
[230] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:silens vesica wrote:Le Badass wrote:Potentially disturbing story. The reply that the security guy didn't care about the player base response was a bit disappointing to read. Indeed. At the very least, issues of this sort need some post-mortem transparency. 300Bn ISK is a lot to just wipe off the map - I'd like to see a DevBlog outlining the evidence and rational behind the decision for large-value actions like this. CCP wants trust from the player base - A little openness would go a long way. Perhaps you could try reading the rest of the thread? This is EVE-O forums. No.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2368
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:54:00 -
[231] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
The EVE client allows the shortcut by design, so no.
didnt realise the eve calculator had a 000 button, nice to know though.
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i dont even need to click the eve menu go to accessories and bring up the calculator in game, thats 3 less clicks anyone else whould have to do.
Allowed by design. Apparently that's a hard concept to understand. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1768
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:55:00 -
[232] - Quote
Did the linked blog reflect the views of EVE-uni?
What do the guys running the corp think?
And how do they justify supporting a guy that was clearly botting for them?
Where are our EVE journalists, asking the tough questions?
There's a conspiracy here, somewhere; I know it. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:56:00 -
[233] - Quote
Enta en Bauldry wrote:The **** is wrong with all you people.
It has come to light that E-UNI condones & defends botters. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
144
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:56:00 -
[234] - Quote
I hope other people learn from this. The problem is you are only hearing one side of the story. using a calculator doesnt allow you to update 30 script a minuet.
I am sure the guy had good intentions and I am sorry for eve's loss as a community, but the guy got caught. People can and will rationalize cheating. They will say things like others do it so I have to to keep up etc.
My only question would be is why Jita still full with bot spammers? Would this not fall under the same rule? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
281
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:57:00 -
[235] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
The EVE client allows the shortcut by design, so no.
didnt realise the eve calculator had a 000 button, nice to know though. GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i dont even need to click the eve menu go to accessories and bring up the calculator in game, thats 3 less clicks anyone else whould have to do. Allowed by design. Apparently that's a hard concept to understand.
no i was being sarcastic.
and no u cant have those few moments of your life you just wasted to post in response to me back, ive stolen them from you.
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Diane Yanumano
Octuras Foundation Ravensgaard
3
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:58:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm pretty sure we define botting.
Yes, indeed. However, what I am getting from this discussion here and elsewhere, is that part of the trouble is that the specific criteria for what constitutes bottling is in at least some cases not entirely clear.
When there is a specific, clear description of what was allegedly done that seems not to be botting and then CCP makes the bald, unexplained, and unsubstantiated assertion that X was botting (pointing at the EULA is not a clear explanation), you create the appearance of arbitrariness. Thus, the 'who watches the watchers' sentiment.
I am sure that more transparency (i.e., a clear explanation of the principles rather than mechanics being exploited by the person who was banned) with respect to the substance of the decision would make not only for less nonsense as found in these threads, fewer allegations of CCP being responsible for the abdication of the Pope, and less uncertainty about just what can and cannot be done 'legally'.
dy |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:00:00 -
[237] - Quote
Diane Yanumano wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm pretty sure we define botting.
Yes, indeed. However, what I am getting from this discussion here and elsewhere, is that part of the trouble is that the specific criteria for what constitutes bottling is in at least some cases not entirely clear. When there is a specific, clear description of what was allegedly done that seems not to be botting and then CCP makes the bald, unexplained, and unsubstantiated assertion that X was botting (pointing at the EULA is not a clear explanation), you create the appearance of arbitrariness. Thus, the 'who watches the watchers' sentiment. I am sure that more transparency (i.e., a clear explanation of the principles rather than mechanics being exploited by the person who was banned) with respect to the substance of the decision would make not only for less nonsense as found in these threads, fewer allegations of CCP being responsible for the abdication of the Pope, and less uncertainty about just what can and cannot be done 'legally'. dy
EULA wrote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
That's pretty transparent. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
214
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:00:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today....
CCP Screegs, thank you for reading this thread and actually answering posts, even though some people don't have any manners!
I read through most of your replies and agree with them. However, this quote shows a sudden, unsettling new direction in CCP policies. As others have pointed out, cache scraping has been a common method for years and is used even today in tools like EVEMon. CCP never had an issue with it.
Also, CCP usually doesn't have an issue with people sitting at their keyboard entering commands - even though some people do this with multiboxing and relay commands to multiple clients. It has always been stated like: "As long as you are at your computer, actually doing things, it's not considered botting/macro usage."
So apparently, John used cache scraping and manual input to stay on top of the market orders. From a previous CCP standpoint I would not expect this to be deemed illegal, but things seem to have changed.
It's your game, your rules, your definition of botting, but I think bending these rules in a hindsight to justify actions against a player is not how things should be.
In case John, was really botting (i.e. not copy-pasting the values manually, but using a macro to do it) it was surely the right decision. |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
312
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:00:00 -
[239] - Quote
Understandably, it's a little difficult for some people to understand how cache scraping can be considered against the rules.
Now stop and think. How do you think a market bot operates. It has to "see" the lowest order on the market to be able to adjust the order price accordingly.
Now think, what does a bot do that CCP can identify aside from potentially having a pattern to when orders are updated and potentially having a pattern for order change increments/thresholds on amount the order can be changed. You guessed it, cache scraping.
I dunno maybe i'm wrong here, maybe theres' other easier more obvious ways to catch botters, but I think there is a good possibility that what I typed has some merit. |
Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
14
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:01:00 -
[240] - Quote
If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique? |
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