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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
752
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:02:00 -
[241] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The only one with a problem right here is you, surrounded by people kindly trying to explain your things and you headbutting left and right.
if I was drinking my morning coffee I would've need a new set of monitors and a new kboard because that's hilarious. if you reeeaaaly knew WH, you would've know that this is not him enraged. this is him engaging in a normal conversation.
WH in RAEG mode? this?? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:02:00 -
[242] - Quote
Diane Yanumano wrote: Yes, indeed. However, what I am getting from this discussion here and elsewhere, is that part of the trouble is that the specific criteria for what constitutes bottling is in at least some cases not entirely clear.
When there is a specific, clear description of what was allegedly done that seems not to be botting and then CCP makes the bald, unexplained, and unsubstantiated assertion that X was botting (pointing at the EULA is not a clear explanation), you create the appearance of arbitrariness. Thus, the 'who watches the watchers' sentiment.
I am sure that more transparency (i.e., a clear explanation of the principles rather than mechanics being exploited by the person who was banned) with respect to the substance of the decision would make not only for less nonsense as found in these threads, fewer allegations of CCP being responsible for the abdication of the Pope, and less uncertainty about just what can and cannot be done 'legally'.
dy
It was abundantly clear the person in question was botting as he was updating orders at inhumane speeds. But someone brought up cache files and tried to trip up the dev into saying stuff while he was clearly a bit upset. It worked and now here we are arguing about an unrelated topic to the OP. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
281
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:02:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mallak Azaria i think the issue here is not how botting is defined currently as per the EULA, its the ad hoc redefinitions to suit ccp sreegs whims.
in relation to cache scraping i might add |
Abrazzar
732
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:05:00 -
[244] - Quote
Dante Uisen wrote:If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique? Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:05:00 -
[245] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The only one with a problem right here is you, surrounded by people kindly trying to explain your things and you headbutting left and right. if I was drinking my morning coffee I would've need a new set of monitors and a new kboard because that's hilarious. if you reeeaaaly knew WH, you would've know that this is not him enraged. this is him engaging in a normal conversation. WH in RAEG mode? this?? To my defence, I can get upset and angry! It only never scares anybody. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3801
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:07:00 -
[246] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
That's pretty transparent.
To me, the statement about "3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an *accelerated* rate when compared with ordinary Game play" is badly stated.
Because a cynical person could see that they are allowed to use stuff to facilitate acquisition of items etc. at a *same or slower* rate when compared with ordinary game play.
Now, while acquiring stuff at a slower rate seems dumb, there are a number of ways to make intense gains with it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
214
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:07:00 -
[247] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique? Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it. John wants to have a word with you. |
Morg Braktar
BlackTar Corporation Tesseract Nexus
4
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:11:00 -
[248] - Quote
Sreegs,
If I may offer a bit of advice. The phrase you should be using goes something like this.
"I could tell you but then I would have to kill you." As we have learned from every spy movie. You could also use the less apt cop movie line, "Move along, nothing to see here."
Personally, I think you have done an excellent job of explaining the situation from CCP's perspective. If Kelduum really thought that they should have kept the ISk, then why even segregate it and ask if it was illegal. There would be no reason to do this if it was assumed to legal, they had foreknowledge of the events and choose to cover their gluteus. No one asks if the goods they are receiving are stolen if they have no reason to believe they haven't been.
Keep up the good fight! |
Abernie
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:13:00 -
[249] - Quote
Please stop using the word "illegal" when talking about things that are not allowed by EULA before I pop a blood vessel in my brain.
Also cache scraping being a bannable offence sounds a bit bad.
Other than that carry on. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6687
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:15:00 -
[250] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique? Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it. John wants to have a word with you.
"John" used a market bot - the discussion about this IGB crap is just a huge derail. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
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Abrazzar
733
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:16:00 -
[251] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique? Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it. John wants to have a word with you. He has no voice on this matter anymore. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:16:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, you did the correct thing here.
"John" was manipulating the market through botting. That's all that matters.
/thread. |
Diane Yanumano
Octuras Foundation Ravensgaard
3
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:16:00 -
[253] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:EULA wrote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. That's pretty transparent.
I'm afraid I disagree. It doesn't say that this software needs to interact with the client, only that I cannot use it to do x faster than I would otherwise be able to do X. Correct? It also disallows 'patterns of game play ... When compared to ordinary game play."
So, what exactly constitutes 'ordinary game play'? Is using eve-market a 'third-party software that facilitates acquisition of currency at an accelerated rate'? Seems to me to fill that definition perfectly.
I'd these decisions were explained in a way that referred to principles that explicated what these phrases are intended to mean, then more of these disputes could be avoided.
CCP is confusing confidentiality with secrecy, I think. Also, given the nature of the player-base and the complexity of game play, some of us need more finely grained guidance at the margins of game play. I personally have no idea what the attraction of spending the efforts in squeezing every last 0.01 ISK at the risk of contravening the EULA. On the other hand, I do not work on Bay Street, Wall Street, or Canary Wharf.
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Abrazzar
733
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:19:00 -
[254] - Quote
The EULA, like any of its kind, is intentionally vague so that people cannot nit pick them apart as they please. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:20:00 -
[255] - Quote
You all seem to just be inclined to argue. John pushed the envelope. He put himself in an unwise position and took a hit for it. It happens. It sets precedent. The EULA can't cover every single botting scenario. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2309
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:26:00 -
[256] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Mallak Azaria i think the issue here is not how botting is defined currently as per the EULA, its the ad hoc redefinitions to suit ccp sreegs whims.
in relation to cache scraping i might add
if the guy in question was 'updating his market orders in game' using a macro program to do it faster than normal gameplay, he deserves the wrath of the security team. if he was merely pulling data passively like many others do then imho CCP sreegs is acting unfairly.
This thread has nothing to do with cache scraping. I stated my opinion on the subject. The measuring stick we use to determine whether to action against a player is the EULA and only the EULA which is a legally binding agreement.
I'm going to go drink a bunch of beer now you can all go back to fighting. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:27:00 -
[257] - Quote
Dan Leviathan wrote:You all seem to just be inclined to argue. John pushed the envelope. He put himself in an unwise position and took a hit for it. It happens. It sets precedent. The EULA can't cover every single botting scenario. [EDIT] At least i wouldn't want to be the one to write it...
EULA's are intentionally 1/2 vague so that CCP can interpret it how they please. They can also just change it randomly and force us to re-accept to log into eve ever again. This is standard procedure for 99.99% of EULA's.
edit: yay lets all get drunk and fight more! |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:31:00 -
[258] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote:Dan Leviathan wrote:You all seem to just be inclined to argue. John pushed the envelope. He put himself in an unwise position and took a hit for it. It happens. It sets precedent. The EULA can't cover every single botting scenario. [EDIT] At least i wouldn't want to be the one to write it... EULA's are intentionally 1/2 vague so that CCP can interpret it how they please. They can also just change it randomly and force us to re-accept to log into eve ever again. This is standard procedure for 99.99% of EULA's. edit: yay lets all get drunk and fight more!
Only 1/2 vague?
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digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:32:00 -
[259] - Quote
I'm going to the John. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1033
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:35:00 -
[260] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be. With this games interesting.......history, do you REALLY blame half the allegations made. I mean, all of them, not just in this thread. While I'm not trying to slide things under a rug, yes basing an allegation against my team on a single act of misconduct 7 years ago is pretty insane.
CCP has been caught deceiving its customers more than once, so how exactly is it "insane" to believe that it could happen again?
How does that saying go? GÇ£IGÇÖm not upset that you lied to me, IGÇÖm upset that from now on I canGÇÖt believe youGÇ¥.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
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Hammer Borne
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
Please continue to swing the banhammer, but do so more often and harder. Only the guilty should be concerned.
Let those of us who play the game have a level playing field. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5146
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:39:00 -
[262] - Quote
Well at least we now know who the bot lovers are. I look forwards to the next few weeks of mass bannings and isk vanishings that happens every time the botters wage a troll war against CCP Sreegs. |
Abrazzar
736
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:42:00 -
[263] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, named after the sound bots make when they're hit with the banhammer. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6693
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:44:00 -
[264] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:CCP Sreegs, named after the sound bots make when they're hit with the banhammer.
it was actually some dumb forum meme ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
766
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:46:00 -
[265] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Well at least we now know who the bot lovers are. I look forwards to the next few weeks of mass bannings and isk vanishings that happens every time the botters wage a troll war against CCP Sreegs. ... and i thought Sreegs had declared the time of mass bannings to be gone for good - in favor of his more systematic & steady approach.
Or do you mean to imply that CCP Sreegs might not be entirely truthful with us?
that's a shocking accusation to make. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2378
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:49:00 -
[266] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:baltec1 wrote:Well at least we now know who the bot lovers are. I look forwards to the next few weeks of mass bannings and isk vanishings that happens every time the botters wage a troll war against CCP Sreegs. ... and i thought Sreegs had declared the time of mass bannings to be gone for good - in favor of his more systematic & steady approach. Or do you mean to imply that CCP Sreegs might not be entirely truthful with us? that's a shocking accusation to make.
Quit derailing the thread, you're starting to sound like a botter sympathiser. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
752
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:49:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm going to go drink a bunch of beer now you can all go back to fighting.
ok I'm selling spiky bats three pringles and a shrub each [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
766
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:55:00 -
[268] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:baltec1 wrote:Well at least we now know who the bot lovers are. I look forwards to the next few weeks of mass bannings and isk vanishings that happens every time the botters wage a troll war against CCP Sreegs. ... and i thought Sreegs had declared the time of mass bannings to be gone for good - in favor of his more systematic & steady approach. Or do you mean to imply that CCP Sreegs might not be entirely truthful with us? that's a shocking accusation to make. Quit derailing the thread, you're starting to sound like a botter sympathiser. so what?
am I going to get banned by goonswarm or something? I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5147
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:55:00 -
[269] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:baltec1 wrote:Well at least we now know who the bot lovers are. I look forwards to the next few weeks of mass bannings and isk vanishings that happens every time the botters wage a troll war against CCP Sreegs. ... and i thought Sreegs had declared the time of mass bannings to be gone for good - in favor of his more systematic & steady approach. Or do you mean to imply that CCP Sreegs might not be entirely truthful with us? that's a shocking accusation to make.
Lets face it, anyone who is defending the botter and trying to attack CCP Sreegs and his team just screams "Im a botter stop whacking us with that hammer".
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Sala Kyss
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
42
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:55:00 -
[270] - Quote
The hell are you people whining for anyway? What part of the EULA where it states, in moron terms, that CCP can do whatever they want, whenever they want, without ANY notice or warning, with both your account and assets?
They could take your entire wallet, give you 500b, and 3 seconds later put you negative 1 trillion. Guess what? Nothing you can do about it, because YOU signed the EULA.
If you self-righteous morons would actually take a second to look at it and realize you aren't entitled to ****, whether it be hand holding or even demanding explanations from dev's for their actions, maybe you'll realize how unimportant you actually are in the universe instead of being the "MOMMY I WANT A LOLLIPOP AND COOKIES NOW!" generation that expects everything in life handed to them on a silver platter.
1) Suspension of Account
Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account.
Cripes people are beyond ******** nowadays |
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