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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
119
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Posted - 2013.02.14 01:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nice job on the Tribal Council Event. It was a good beginning.
I hope you guys get more internal storytelling tools asap, so that you can make events with even on this scale with more involved triggers, plot forks, and points of interaction. Cheers. |
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CCP Falcon
2274
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Posted - 2013.02.14 02:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Glad you enjoyed.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1042
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Posted - 2013.02.14 09:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Glad you enjoyed.
Well done, some people aren't happy you god modding(they are simple haters) |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
286
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Posted - 2013.02.14 15:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm one of those unhappy about the god modding. I'm neither simple nor a hater.
Listen, I completely understand what's trying to be done with these events, but a major point is being missed and it's starting to get frustrating.
I'll put it as succinctly as possible:
New Eden is a spectacular world full of amazing stories being told every hour. Trying to act out chapters in some unpublished novel when it is STUPENDOUSLY OBVIOUS that these pre-written stories don't fit into the reality of what New Eden actually is, is insulting.
These Minmatar processions were advertised, in-character, for days prior to the event. The result, in the actual New Eden that we all exist in (rather than the fantasy one some people seem to want in order to write really, really bad novels) was to have a large number of capsuleers show up to kill everyone.
That's what happened. Everyone died. Suicide bombers ruined the parade.
Is that a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the New Eden we live in. So please, please, either accept the world as it actually is, or change it. But this garbage of plugging your ears and playing pretend that everything went exactly as your imagination had envisioned really, really sucks. |
icy ghost
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.02.14 17:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Some of the fire works and celebrations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI7Y0kR5sjg&feature=youtu.be |
Meizu Kho
Kho Incorporated
33
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Posted - 2013.02.14 20:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
A quick after report of the event from the perspective of Fcord wing 1:
youtube
I liked the event, in my opinion complaining about the fact that you couldn't kill the delegates is a bit like complaining you can't blow up a station or a stargate. Yes ccp has a scenario in mind, and sometimes there will be events that are mainly to advance the story where they want it to be. This however does not restrict the players ability to shape the story.
The gankers could have gone after the fleet commanders of the escorts and caused serious damage, wardecks or cans could have been used to instigate fights, and the story would have been very different, the outcome perhaps not but the whole 'vibe' could be changed by the players.
What i find the biggest mistake made by people complaining is that they demand the story should be all about the players and the sandbox but then they only focus on the devs. You couldn't kill the 7 unique ships flown by the devs, but there were 250 other people in local and escorting them you could have used, helped, manipulated, bribed etc to put your mark on the story. But i suspect all the complainers were really after was a killmail.
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Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
286
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Posted - 2013.02.14 20:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Disagree entirely.
The "complainers" are upset because the way New Eden works, what they attempted to do should have been entirely doable within the very well established parameters of the entirety of how Eve works.
You cheapen established lore, mechanics, and fair play by forcing events to go a certain way when circumstances combined with history dictate that things should have gone an entirely different way.
To put it another way, if you want to play in the sandbox, you don't get to bring in your own "magic" sand. |
Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis Pandorum Invictus
322
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Posted - 2013.02.14 20:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
For myself, I am at a tossup as to whether or not the event was successful.
God mode shield? I don't see a huge problem with that. There had to be some sort of gank potential in my opinion, but at the same time, I bring up an issue I bought for the original formation of this section of forum. The thought that an elite few can completely run in one direction. In this instance, a prevention to "gank" attack was necessary since there is really no defence against it. Had their not been the shields, it was a 100% chance in my mind it would have been a gank.
There was a better option than some mega shield however. In terms of lore, concord providing a safety to them is one theoretical option since the tribal does have sway with concord is that the shield in itself is only interperative. In actuality, the shields are designed in co-ordination with concord to provide defence for them. Same thing they have on their swat ships. Best thing would have been capitals, then cyno at each gate.
Obviously, this story is hopefully set up to promote more in depth story, but signs or lead in to such made it rather anticlimactic. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
121
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Posted - 2013.02.14 21:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
@Esan Vartesa
(sarcasm) Yep, NPC never use magic sand in Eve Live Events. (/sarcasm)
You do have a point though, about expecting to be able to destroy the delegate's ships. It should have been made more clear that physical attacks would not harm them.
However, if you were reading along, you might have noticed, there was a great deal of tension in the ranks. You may have been able to do more damage with words than with lasers. Indeed, attacking with lasers probably only helped to solidify their alliance. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
286
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Posted - 2013.02.14 21:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
It would have been preferable for the gank to have been permitted to succeed as it should, and then have it revealed that the delegate was really in another ship entirely. The TTI being just for show, which it was after all.
If a gank from a null alliance like the Goons was a concern from the beginning, than alternate plans would have been conceived. Stop pretending that New Eden is a different place than it is because you want the story to go a certain way.
In short, be more creative and try respecting the way things are, rather than pretending things are otherwise just for convenience. |
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Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
121
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Posted - 2013.02.14 21:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
I agree the decoy tactic would have been a good scape goat. But running 16+ concurrent ships would have been quite the challenge for ol' Falcon. This is exactly why Live Events needs more internal tools and programming support. *see OP* |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2172
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Posted - 2013.02.16 01:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
243
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Posted - 2013.02.16 07:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week.
If you really want to discourage gank squads from crapping all over live events for the lulz, assign in-game penalties for doing so e.g. if you're going to try and assassinate senior leadership of a CONCORD signatory, then CONCORD is going to label you and your organization as terrorists and bar you from CONCORD-protected space. Or if you help the Caldari Navy against the Guristas, you tank your Guristas standings and they put a bounty on you.
That said, people are way too bent out of shape over de facto invulnerable NPCs; they're far from anomalous in other parts of EVE. The 'not sandboxy' argument is dubious, both because you are dealing with Dev-created content (and thus have wandering into a theme park) and because 'sandbox' doesn't mean you can do anything with no restrictions. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
121
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Posted - 2013.02.16 07:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week. So no doppelgangers, evil twins, it was all a dreams, or Alternate Universes...
... but applied phlebotinum is okay ;) *(honestly you couldn't have eve without it)
Check. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1188
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Posted - 2013.02.16 14:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week.
Ya, I agree.
Nothing sucks more than planning ahead for your death. You know, what would make it even more convenient is if you could actually be there and not need a fake person. Not only could a bait-and-switch work, but you know... Imagine if people in the future could like, make a duplicate of their body in case they died, and could transfer their memories into that body. I don't know, we could call it "Cut-Pasting" or something.
Glad noone in EVE can do that, would make for really cheap drama...
Where I am. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
549
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Posted - 2013.02.16 16:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
"Everyone's a Capsuleer". Making every NPC a Capsuleer cheapens the story. The Player is the Capsuleer, and has something special about them because of the fact. I'd be quite disappointed if every NPC we encountered was a Capsuleer, and I'm not alone in the sentiment.
"Applied Phlebotinum" and "Doppelgangers". One of these concepts are found in the relatively neutral playground in which our characters live, another is an actively used storytelling construct. Equally; one of these concepts serves to create more diverse and interesting stories; another one forces the storyteller to down then same boring path, every time. I invite you to discern which is which. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
288
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Posted - 2013.02.16 18:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week.
Fine, so we don't like the bait-and-switch plot device. That's cool, I'm certainly not going to defend it.
But are we seriously going to try to argue that "a witch did it" is preferable?
Cause that's what you did. They're invulnerable... because CONCORD did it. |
Henry Montclaire
42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum
49
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Posted - 2013.02.16 20:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week. Fine, so we don't like the bait-and-switch plot device. That's cool, I'm certainly not going to defend it. But are we seriously going to try to argue that "a witch did it" is preferable? Cause that's what you did. They're invulnerable... because CONCORD did it.
Get over it. This was already addressed, multiple times. The devs are not planning to use literal plot armor again, and will instead be creating contingency plans for if an important NPC is targeted by a gank. CCP Falcon has already agreed with you, you can let it rest now.
Shooting wrecks is bad. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
123
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Posted - 2013.02.16 21:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Absolutely, as in the OP... the devs took a big step in the right direction with this event... they just need to iron out some kinks (and get some tools to make their storytelling easier).... Seriously... they're almost stuck to the same mechanics we are... and we all know how that works for RP (hint: not great). |
Esna Pitoojee
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
246
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Posted - 2013.02.17 00:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week. Fine, so we don't like the bait-and-switch plot device. That's cool, I'm certainly not going to defend it. But are we seriously going to try to argue that "a witch did it" is preferable? Cause that's what you did. They're invulnerable... because CONCORD did it.
Frankly, I find that explanation far more in line with the EVE lore as it already exists. We already know that there are immense limits on player (capsuleer) abilities, although they may be so subtle at times as that we don't necessarily notice them.
For instance, despite our easy access to advanced scan probes that can lock down a frigate's location in a matter of minutes, we cannot use them to simply scan out the stargate networks that support most non-capsuleer traffic. I imagine a truly determined capsuleer could circumvent this by financing the deployment of a vessel equipped with more traditional scanning equipment, or even by simply financing a nominally unconnected baseliner vessel to go out and map them -
But the point remains that CONCORD, the Big 4, or whoever have decided that we as capsuleers using capsuleer equipment are not to be allowed to easily detect those "baseliner traffic" stargates. |
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Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
124
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Posted - 2013.02.17 00:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
For more information on why not to mess around with CONCORD: see Jita 4-4 part II: they can pull our plugs any time they want... |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2179
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Posted - 2013.02.17 16:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have no problems with clones. They already exist in the story and if you kill a capsuleer, you expect them to clone. That's much different than declaring that there is an entire delegation on a ship, making no effort to portray that there might be something different going on, and then after the fact saying "Well, they weren't really there the entire time! Fooled you!" New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
124
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Posted - 2013.02.17 16:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ah, I think you misunderstand. The idea is that the delegation would be using decoys during the event. Not that the decoys were made up after the fact. Thus, there would still be a chance that they could be destroyed (especially if some nefarious criminal factions were able to "acquire" intel on which ship was the real deal). I don't think anyone's saying that you should 'inventively' retcon bad events to suit your story (bard's tale style), but, rather, that the event could have been planned to avoid the possibility of death via methods other than godmode-ing. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
152
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Posted - 2013.02.17 22:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Faulx wrote:Ah, I think you misunderstand. The idea is that the delegation would be using decoys during the event. Not that the decoys were made up after the fact. Thus, there would still be a chance that they could be destroyed (especially if some nefarious criminal factions were able to "acquire" intel on which ship was the real deal). I don't think anyone's saying that you should 'inventively' retcon bad events to suit your story (bard's tale style), but, rather, that the event could have been planned to avoid the possibility of death via methods other than godmode-ing.
The problem is the lack of IG acqusition means for that information.
Either the Devs claim the information is secure, in which case, it's god moding because you can never work out where they are. Or the information leaks to selected parties, in which case those parties win, because they have the information. Which is another form of god moding as they are being given the victory by the Devs selectively handing out information. Or the Devs make the decoy public, in which case.... everyone knows about the decoy and you might as well have not had a decoy to start with.
There is no 'spy/hacker/bribery/intel' system we can use against NPC's built into the game. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
124
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Posted - 2013.02.18 02:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Well, let's see... the QA module grants the TTI 8 mil EHP right? So a fleet of 16 ships undocks each with a reasonably easy to obtain (for an empire) 500k EHP. The delegates are on board one of them... Even if you know exactly where the fleet is going to be, do you have the assets to guarantee their deaths? You have about as much of a chance as with the QA module (maybe slightly better)... only now the dev has to fly 16 * 7 = 112 ships... hard to do solo without some tools to help keep things together. That's all I'm saying: the LE team could use some storytelling tools. *is surprised so few people seem to agree* |
Publius Valerius
Samarkand Financial
102
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Posted - 2013.02.18 16:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Henry Montclaire wrote:Esan Vartesa wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I will fight to my dying breath to prevent a bait-and-switch Body Double Shocking Swerve. It's terrible writing and cheapens the story far more, in my opinion, than introducing a Plot Shield for some NPCs to allow them to live. That said, I'm pretty firmly against doing either of them from this point forward, but if the options are one or the other, Plot Shield will win for me every day of the week. Fine, so we don't like the bait-and-switch plot device. That's cool, I'm certainly not going to defend it. But are we seriously going to try to argue that "a witch did it" is preferable? Cause that's what you did. They're invulnerable... because CONCORD did it. Get over it. This was already addressed, multiple times. The devs are not planning to use literal plot armor again, and will instead be creating contingency plans for if an important NPC is targeted by a gank. CCP Falcon has already agreed with you, you can let it rest now. Shooting wrecks is bad.
They have addressed it? Where, I cant belive it, Falcon and/or Etenere have said they were wrong. Please send me a link. Im to lazy to search . People which link it to me get a nice thumbs up. I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer |
turmajin
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
To be honest i havent really paid any attention to Live Events,but this story tickeled my interest.After reading all the posts here and watching a vid of the event.I do feel that the GANK should have been posible.Make it very hard and risky ,but posible,There should be nothing in EVE that is totally invunrable imo.I also think Live Events should be expanded,and players allowed to take part in operations for an empire against another empire or pirate fractions to achive specfic goals ,like resucing slaves for the Republic ,reward status increase for Minmater and Gellente and LPs ,loss for Amarr and Caldai,and the same for operations aginst the pirate factions.and vice versa if you help the pirate factions.I think if CCP starts to reward players for taking part in Live Events it will grow ,and become a big part of the game adding yes another theame parkish activity ,but that can be balanced by adding something like the RING MINING idea allowing for more PvP oppotunities ,as its intended to be for small to large fleet operations or even seeding a few tech or other moon mineral roids in belts ,so more players mine and can be ganked ,as it again becomes worth it .Though of course yeilds would have to be significantly higher in low and null,and miserly in high. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1041
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Posted - 2013.03.01 01:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
If lore was truly followed then a gank should have been possible. After all, who was it who blew up the CONCORD station in Yulai during an attack that broke who knows how many signed CONCORD treaties?
And yet just a few years later here's CONCORD happily defending the Tribal Delegates like nothing ever happened.
Cops protecting known cop killers.
Sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just went out the window. It would have been far more believable to have CONCORD suddenly go on a doughnut break ten seconds before the gankers showed up. A nice little dose of payback would have been quite poetic, I think. EvE Forum Bingo |
Derdrom Utida
Brave Newbies Inc.
8
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Posted - 2013.03.01 03:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:If lore was truly followed then a gank should have been possible. After all, who was it who blew up the CONCORD station in Yulai during an attack that broke who knows how many signed CONCORD treaties? And yet just a few years later here's CONCORD happily defending the Tribal Delegates like nothing ever happened. Cops protecting known cop killers. Sorry, but my suspension of disbelief just went out the window. It would have been far more believable to have CONCORD suddenly go on a doughnut break ten seconds before the gankers showed up. A nice little dose of payback would have been quite poetic, I think.
I thought turning a blind eye wouldn't be possible due to CONCORD being forced in line with the original, Jovian-minded directive? THANATOS cut it extremely close, but they bent the directive in order to attempt to keep the Templar-tech'd soldiers in line, IIRC.
Wilfully turning a blind-eye toward the Elders and leaving them unprotected would be against CONCORD directive, and thus out of their control.
Also, I believe the main reason why the Elder fleet was able to take out the Yulai station antennae was because the CONCORD fleet fired first, leaving their ships not able to utilize the Jovian power of their ships? |
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