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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country
5230
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Posted - 2013.02.14 21:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
Meredith Karrde wrote:There's an impossible bias towards Pirates/Criminals: 1) They are allowed everywhere, where the non-pirates are being killed if we dare enter their territory. 2) A pirate in Hi-Sec (which is completely illogical, in RL they would not even be tolerated in 0.5 space) is PROTECTED from being killed. Targetting a Pirate/Criminal is basically enough to get aggression from the CCP-Concorde. Even if you have a high standing with the space you are in.
We can complain about this until our tongues are worn off, nothing will change. Probably because one of the Criminals is a GM. Yes, they are very favorable biassed...
1. you have access to all areas of the game, same as me.
2. Suspect system and negative status mean you can attack us, Bounties mean you get payed for killing us and most of the ships we use are profitable to gank.
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NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
349
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Posted - 2013.02.14 21:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
What if all supercaps and sov bits were sold through the aurum store either as cheap bpcs or more expensive whole items? Ooh that is actually a fun idea.
Why does no one comment on my little guide on freighter ganking? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3822
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 22:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Ok for those not following.
Empty hulls are never ganked unless the squad is so high on victory they dont care (these people dont last long as they are wasting money)
there are 2 ways to gank a freighter. The alphanado (16 nados @110mil each) and the Bumping Blastos (only 7 blastos at ~100 mil each) but also includes 2 bump machs and a bump fleet stabber. Now if the squads are specialized and trained to the max the costs drop significantly and the gank can be done for under 500 mil.
Now onto the loot. The rng seems to settle on a 60-40 split against you. So on average only 40 % of all stacks will drop. So what this means is that if you stack all you may be passed on due to the risk
from this we find that the baseline is 1.25 bil in cargo must be hauled for a perfect gank to break even. A new gank squad needs 1.75 bil to break even.
Very excellent and informative post!
I take it, in order to gank a JF you want to see 2.5B in cargo or preferably 3.5B right? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
324
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Posted - 2013.02.14 22:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
2. Suspect system and negative status mean you can attack us, Bounties mean you get payed for killing us and most of the ships we use are profitable to gank.
Just to be sure, you mean that ganking a GankTalos would be profitable or did I read that wrong? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 22:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion.
And yet I keep losing Charons full of Trit to you guys. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6756
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Posted - 2013.02.14 23:01:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion. And yet I keep losing Charons full of Trit to you guys.
Link a killmail ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Whitehound
821
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion. And yet I keep losing Charons full of Trit to you guys. Don't take him serious. Players get ganked for less than 2.5b ISKs. Some use almost empty courier contracts (filled with empty freight containers) and take 2b ISKs collateral for it. When the freighter comes through Uedama does it get ganked. No loot needs to be picked up and it is a guaranteed 2b ISKs profit. The profit for this will start below 1b ISKs (whatever the gank fleet costs) and it is then only a question of how much each pilot in the gank fleet expects as a minimum payment. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The fact that you can kill billions worth of hull and cargo with less than a million ISK means that the game is balanced properly.
I want to see you killing 700k+ EHP Damnation with 10 Nados in 1.0. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:04:00 -
[69] - Quote
Because charon load of trit is worth less than 600M and they don't generally go after anything that won't drop at least five times that
Also whether or not that massive stack of trit drops is up to a coinflip
so yeah keep lying through your teeth 8-) ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Whitehound
821
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:06:00 -
[70] - Quote
Andski wrote:Link a killmail It is not news. You can search for them yourself. Other Goons have already confirmed to sometimes gank empty freighters when the pilot is -10 with you folks. Just for laughs. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6756
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Posted - 2013.02.14 23:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Andski wrote:Link a killmail It is not news. You can search for them yourself. Other Goons have already confirmed to sometimes gank empty freighters when the pilot is -10 with you folks. Just for laughs.
you can fill up a charon with GSCs and fill those with trit and it /still/ won't be worth ganking even taking the value of the GSCs into account so please keep lying so blatantly ;p ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
Andski wrote:Whitehound wrote:Andski wrote:Link a killmail It is not news. You can search for them yourself. Other Goons have already confirmed to sometimes gank empty freighters when the pilot is -10 with you folks. Just for laughs. you can fill up a charon with GSCs and fill those with trit and it /still/ won't be worth ganking so please keep lying so blatantly ;p
That's why I use SMCs. |
Solstice Project
Brave Newbies Inc.
2746
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Posted - 2013.02.14 23:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
Hey OP, what's in your mouth ?? Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Whitehound
821
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Posted - 2013.02.14 23:17:00 -
[74] - Quote
Andski wrote:Whitehound wrote:Andski wrote:Link a killmail It is not news. You can search for them yourself. Other Goons have already confirmed to sometimes gank empty freighters when the pilot is -10 with you folks. Just for laughs. you can fill up a charon with GSCs and fill those with trit and it /still/ won't be worth ganking so please keep lying so blatantly ;p Actually do you never kill for profit, but for various other reasons. You only like the idea that your kills are perceived as a legitimate business strategy or else you'd be drowning in the tears of your victims. And that is the truth! SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2757
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:ship investment: ~1.3bn ISK
So immediately on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~300m in comparison to the gank fleet (1.3bn ship - 1bn gankfleet).
Let's reverse that logic...if it should require at least the cost of your hull to gank you, then shouldn't you also be able to gank anything that costs less than your hull? That means a tornado should be able to gank a harbinger. Are you sure you want to take that approach? Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
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Posted - 2013.02.14 23:50:00 -
[76] - Quote
lots of strawmen, personal attacks, tangents and other EvE forums type stuff here, as expected.
Very entertaining, highlights include:
Razor Alliance that one person that posts like they would like to punch me in the face they are sooo angry.
anyway.
SUICIDE GANKING.
This is the point.
In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships. You are saying "we are prepared to put this much at stake to attack you in high security space and we are prepared to accept the consequences." There is no war-dec or flashy red or yellow here, just a cold calculation: cost vs risk vs reward.
So I did not make these rules, the game did.
You know who agrees with me?
CCP.
You know how I know this?
Mining barges.
There will always be, and should always be, pilots autopiloting with too great a value in cargo. There should be room for the truckers of space to take a few more courier jobs before they become targets. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
350
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 23:57:00 -
[77] - Quote
Actually the courier issue can be solved by removing the notification of who took it until after the time expires. This way they cant just sit and wait for the taker to undock then gank. |
Whitehound
821
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 00:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Actually the courier issue can be solved by removing the notification of who took it until after the time expires. This way they cant just sit and wait for the taker to undock then gank. I disagree. The best solution in my opinion, and I already added I to the mega-wish-list thread, is to treat courier contracts like temporary purchases, meaning, you should be able to see what you will load up with before you accept. If you are going to pay the collateral then the stuff is practically yours for the time of the haul and the pilot has the same rights to know what it is just like with item exchange contracts and auctions.
And why is it that my spelling correction suggests "piratically " over "practically"?! My dictionary got ambushed... SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2757
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 00:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships.
What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance.
Core Researcher wrote:You know how I know this?
Mining barges.
it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 00:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Core Researcher wrote:In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships. What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance. Core Researcher wrote:You know how I know this?
Mining barges. it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done.
ill bite.
If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple? You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?
You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.
What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?
I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?
Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.
So what was your point exactly and how did i lose any debate? |
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stoicfaux
2355
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Posted - 2013.02.15 01:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.
People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on. Well, one of the arguments against buffing mining ships was that miners had the option to fit a tank instead of fitting for yield, thus most miners chose to be victims.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2757
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 01:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple? You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?
Yes, it most certainly would. Twice the EHP means twice the time to rescue it. Twice the time to get it to a jump gate and possibly escape. Twice the time to (in highsec) get a neutral freighter on grid and transfer the cargo.
Core Researcher wrote:You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.
What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?
Which goes back to my point that you're asking for a substantial change to a class of ship so that you can haul more stuff before it becomes profitable to gank.
Core Researcher wrote:I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?
If CCP was trying to balance cost of ganker vs. gankee, then they failed miserably with the hulk, as it's easily ganked with less than 10% of its value.
Core Researcher wrote:Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.
Hulks and Mackinaws are still cheap to gank. And miners have always had the choice of yield versus tank. And when the consistently chose yield over tank and lost their shiny exhumers for it, they cried to CCP to fix it.
The single greatest nerf to suicide ganking wasn't the mining barge buffs, it was revoking insurance payouts to the gankers. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Mark Munoz
Schwarzschild Casimir Collective STR8NGE BREW
69
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 01:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Core Researcher wrote:In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships. What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance. Core Researcher wrote:You know how I know this?
Mining barges. it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done. ill bite. If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple? You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter? You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect. What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right? I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh? Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship. So what was your point exactly and how did i lose any debate?
If I could speak for him I think he is referring to the fact that even the most tanked hulk can be ganked with less than 60 million in ships. The people ganking freighters are also SUICIDE GANKERS so I am not sure what your point in emphasizing that is.
Essentially what he is saying is you gave the example of the exhumer buff to show how CCP agrees with you. He is saying they don't as people are still ganking tanked exhumers all day long and for a fraction of the cost of the exhumer. The only explanation I can think of for your logic is making TANKED exhumer ganking no longer a solo activity. Again though nobody is solo-ganking any freighters so either way your logic is flawed.
The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.
I think lots of players of this game forget that CCP's goal with this game was to make it as close to real life as possible. Do you see Banks security trucks running around town with just a driver picking up and dropping off loot? If you are under consideration for a gank in your freighter you are hauling enough to warrant a team, otherwise you are indeed just a lowly trucker that will likely have a very uneventful day. Use the brain-tank. |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
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Posted - 2013.02.15 01:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.
Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.
The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.
and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.
Perhaps the way to go would be to follow the mining ships: split freighter into high capacity/low tank through to low capacity/high tank. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
3054
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Posted - 2013.02.15 01:46:00 -
[85] - Quote
give the freighter a HP buff so the vagabond would kill the unescorted thing in 10 minutes instead of 5? Why didn't you save the freighter btw? |
Mark Munoz
Schwarzschild Casimir Collective STR8NGE BREW
69
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 01:50:00 -
[86] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.
Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.
The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.
and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.
Perhaps the way to go would be to follow the mining ships: split freighter into high capacity/low tank through to low capacity/high tank.
So the Skiff and Procurer sure yeah thats a different topic but do you see many miners use them? Again instead of choosing the tank(Skiff,Procurer), miners choose the yield. I am not saying that people don't use the Skiff and the Procurer but the other exhumers and barges far outnumber them.
Are you sure this vagabond pilot wasn't at war or that this freighter wasn't already damaged? I don't fly a Vaga but most fits I am finding hover it around 500-600DPS, there is no way that sologanks a Freighter in highsec space unless they were a war target, a criminal, had kill rights etc. |
Mark Munoz
Schwarzschild Casimir Collective STR8NGE BREW
69
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Posted - 2013.02.15 02:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
Quote:the point of emphasizing this is to show shich particular group of players are the subject of debate. As I said earlier in the thread: Core Researcher wrote: then we get the usual terribad response people roll out to this debate time and time again (looking at you trollface):
dont try to play solo in an MMO.
Fine - lets lock all mission gates, explorations sites, complexes, belts and pvp unless there is more than 1 player trying to access them/it.
No one will complain right, cause its an MMO durrrrr
you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.
Well you edited this while I was responding to you.
EVE is a game that ENCOURAGES cooperation. Sure you can play by yourself all you want but don't get angry when a well organized team steam rolls your play style. That is quite literally what this game is about. If it wasn't it wouldn't take so long to train for roles in this game.
EVE is built from the ground up around the fact that you CAN'T do everything you want by yourself. You have to rely on other people to support your play style in some regard. This is why so many of us have alts just so we can try out all the different paths one can take in this game, or to support another alt in game.
You very clearly left out the most telling part of my quote here. Which was that if you are hauling highly valuable cargo you don't do that with 1 person in real life just as you shouldn't do that in game. In real life if you want to haul around valuables you hire a TEAM of people to transport them if you want to haul your sofa you hire a trucker. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2757
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 02:05:00 -
[88] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.
Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.
The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.
Mackinaws aren't "as cheap" to gank as they used to be. That's not the point. They can still be ganked for a fraction of their value. One of the points of your argument was that a billion isk worth of ships shouldn't be able to gank a 1.3 billion isk ship. That's faulty logic.
Core Researcher wrote:and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.
It would take a vagabond roughly 5 minutes to chew through an obelisk right now. That's assuming perfect skills and a lightly-tanked vagabond. You really think the possibility of someone ganking your freighter justifies turning it into a mini-structure grind when it's a legitimate target?
Hey, there's an idea! Let's just put a reinforce timer on freighters so they can't be volleyed at all. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
350
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 02:52:00 -
[89] - Quote
During the great buff all capitals save freighters were given 4x HP. All weapons were made better across the board. All other hulls were improved or didnt exist yet. Freighters are quite literally built for a different era and most certainly of the 4x hp buff to be brought in line with other capitals. Now some of you may wish to argue of the horror this would bring. That ganking would no longer be profitable. I ask of you what rights do a criminal have in the proceedings of the law abiding. What do you have to demand of those you so callously kill. You argue on profit and the worth to yourselves. You see not a person, you see a variable a set of equations to be run through. You have lost your humanity and with it your right to decide on the proceedings of others.
TLDR HTFUYWAB
Now really the issue is easy, give them midslots s they can tank some. No issue of greater cargo or anything else like that. Or we simply make it such that they cant be pinned by the logoff timers in highsec. Especially as in this situation the bumping is most certainly a malicious and aggressive action upon the player and from this consistent with the activation of hostile modules. From this we can gather based upon the posting and proclamations of our grand proclaimer CCP Falcon that you should in fact be Concordokkened for the actions taken. Thus I plead to the bumpers to set you self destructs and at 30 seconds to go to hit that freighter with all you have. In this manner you may simulate the swift and sure action action that would ordinarily follow Concord's wrath. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2759
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 03:12:00 -
[90] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:During the great buff all capitals save freighters were given 4x HP.
Seems CCP thought they were balanced already.
NEONOVUS wrote:You have lost your humanity and with it your right to decide on the proceedings of others.
That was quite the strawman you used to dismiss an entire segment of the population as being sub-human.
NEONOVUS wrote:From this we can gather based upon the posting and proclamations of our grand proclaimer CCP Falcon that you should in fact be Concordokkened for the actions taken.
What, pray tell, did Falcon say that makes you think bumping warrants a concord response?
Look at the GM response to miner bumping and then come back to the thread. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
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