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Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 02:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
To further my previous' post meaning and making it easier to comprehend for the reader, I'll say this; It's one thing to buy the clone when you have the isk and do very safe activities during the times you don't.
However, during the course of activity between poddings, money fluctuates. When you're low you don't wanna be micromanaging your wallet to make sure you have the isk to cover the second charge. One charge and one charge only please There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
Novah Soul
SASN Mining Corp. Grand Stellar Alliance
5
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Posted - 2013.02.18 04:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
Clone costs haven't been the issue for me. It has moreso been that friggin 24 hour jump clone timer... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3112
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Posted - 2013.02.18 04:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
If clone cost was a hurdle to PvP, why aren't there more people PvPing in sub-10M SP clones?
Use that 100M SP clone for carebearing it up in hisec flying L4 missions in your Kronos. Use the 10M SP clone for cheap laughs in lowsec, flying Reapers and painting people to death. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3941
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hixeppa wrote:No. If you've reached 100M SP and are still pissing yourself over a little clone cost, you were never going to be a pvper. Carebear on. More insight into PVP from Science and Trade Institute. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3941
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Clone degradation would be awesome too.
No, it would not. It would be ******* awful game design and you should feel bad for even suggesting it. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
RichtPaul
Shadow Industries I
26
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Posted - 2013.02.18 05:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
If clones were free!!! :D
Man I'd PVP in frigates and then when I died I would orbit in my pod around the enemy :D
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
If clones were free how would we compete with older players in the race for skill points except hoping they unsubscribe, die in tech 3 ships, or die without an adequate clone?
Wait... what if I died in an inadequate clone? D:
Oh no I didn't think this through!!!! The death I wished upon other pod pilots IS ACTUALLY HURTING ME. I see the error of my ways now! Free clones for everybody! |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 05:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Clone degradation would be awesome too.
No, it would not. It would be ******* awful game design and you should feel bad for even suggesting it.
What? Is the risk factor of permadeath or actually standing to lose skillpoints too much for the hard core pvpers of Eve?
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 05:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
RichtPaul wrote:If clones were free!!! :D Man I'd PVP in frigates and then when I died I would orbit in my pod around the enemy :D WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE If clones were free how would we compete with older players in the race for skill points except hoping they unsubscribe, die in tech 3 ships, or die without an adequate clone? Wait... what if I died in an inadequate clone? D: Oh no I didn't think this through!!!! The death I wished upon other pod pilots IS ACTUALLY HURTING ME. I see the error of my ways now! Free clones for everybody!
Pods should have an AoE Doomsday self destruct!
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Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
28
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Posted - 2013.02.18 06:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone
Yeah actually I hadn't thought of that and I bet a lot of the "clones r expensive!!!111" whiners didn't either!
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3073
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
No, but it would change what kinds of roams I'd be willing to undertake on my "elder" characters. As it stands, I have alts for null sec roams.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
No. Anyone who has 100 million SP and still doesn't PvP is never going to voluntarily PvP no matter what. I do think clone costs should be lowered though. In the beginning it scales with your capability to make money, but at a certain point your close cost keeps going up even though you're making as much ISK as you ever will. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
828
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
- re. 'a person with that much sp should be a earning lots of isk anyway': some people simply hate earning isk or aren't that great. these people shouldn't be prevented from pvping on their character altogether (note intentionally risking an insufficient clone is NOT an option to anyone), because that sucks arse
instead, a poor character should be limited to flying in cheap ships, and a person unwilling to put isk on the table should be limited to flying cheap ships
currently high-sp characters can be (depends on the person's mindset) practically prevented from flying in the cheapest ships such as frigates (just to stress this, prevented from flying the cheapest ships) if bubbles even might be around because the cost of a naked clone makes the cost of flying that cheap ship unjustifiable
I don't believe anyone should have any reservation about undocking the cheapest ship in the game, or at least people should have less reservations about flying cheap ships than expensive ones
- re. 'it's an isk sink': players shouldn't have to have a ****** game experience just to balance some numbers they can't help themselves. if the economy needs a balance and one solution makes people's game awful, it is not a good solution |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
616
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
TL;DR: while PvP cost *any* money most players won't do it willingly. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2004
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
178
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Imo what hurts pvp the most isn't clone costs, it's attribute implants. People plug in +4s or +5s into their primary clones, then they're afraid losing hundreds of millions each time they are podded, but they refuse to downgrade to a pvp clone, because that'll slow their skilling. It's just another one of those silly mental barriers to breach. |
Daisai
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
75
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
The clone cost is not really a problem and wont effect the amount of pvp in the game. What might effect the amount of pvp in eve is the jumpclone cooldown, if they lower the cooldown on that or create a isk sink in that then that would result in more pvp. Something like 500mil isk to reset jumpclone timer.
That would result in more pvp and remove some of the isk in the game which would lower the inflation. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
828
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Then again, by risking a higher cost ship, you essentially nullify the difference in clone cost. Any ship can be destroyed if the enemy gets a drop on you, so it doesn't really matter. Plus, imo people choosing more expensive ships is a good thing, else the entire pvp would turn into oversized RvB brawl. people currently choose expensive ships because they're generally more powerful. that's not going to change. but people feeling as if flying a cheaper or less survivable ship is not a practical or justifiable option due to the cost of replacing a clone is not a good thing, as it restricts their choices and restricts their gameplay
btw in eve online 'not a practical option' and 'not a justifiable option' are the same as 'not an option' for a player due to real loss |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
229
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Roime wrote:If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
Based on my experience in the most recent RvB FFA where obvious throwaway alts, using FREE ships, would still pucey around in long range ships just whoring and running away. I mean serisoulsy?
In conclusion, the only people that would seek out pvp are the ones that do it currently. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3107
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hello thread.
I wrote an article about clone costs. Ignore the insurance part though.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
Roime wrote:If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
This I can definitely say yes to, but for all the wrong reasons.. Insert here endless suicide bumrushes that get old real quick. |
Karig'Ano Keikira
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Don't think so, if anything, implant costs are much more of a problem. Of course, if you have 100m+ skill points and no cash for new clones, something is wrong anyway. |
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
30421
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Fight in Low Sec, you Only lose your Pod to Stupidity I lack any Moral Fiber :D |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4510
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Tub Chil wrote:No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone Yeah actually I hadn't thought of that and I bet a lot of the "clones r expensive!!!111" whiners didn't either!
Ofcourse we did. The clone cost system isn't the only or the worst barrier to more PvP. It's just one more unnecessary barrier and a bad mechanic on it's own. Being married to your implants is another one, that should be fixed by removing the long timers from local clone switching. It's just that these issues are usually discussed separately. The medical clone issue justifies a change on it's own. The fact there are other changes, that would also help and even be more effective in encouraging more PvP don't change that need in any way.
Would free medical clones cause more PvP? Naturally it would. Everything that lowers the cost will increase PvP, but that isn't the question to ask, since on it's own it isn't a reason to make such changes. Good reasons for the change are, that the current mechanic unnecessarily inhibits certain kinds of PvP and the costs become increasingly harder to justify from gameplay and customer loyalty perspective.
The clone cost of a fully skilled frigate pilot is a few hundred thousand ISK. Why do some people need to pay up to 90 million ISK minimum for the privilage of getting podded in one, when those extra skillpoints didn't bring them better performance? Implants can be much more expensive, but it's a realistic option to not use any. Not using an up to date medical clone isn't.
Maybe you say higher SP means higher income earning potential, so the cost is justified. Two problems with that. Initially this is so, but that progression stops fairly quickly, while the cost keep on heavily increasing. This means the cost isn't actually tied to your ability to earn ISK. It likely keeps increasing the way it does just because at the time the system was created no one gave any thought, if it worked at our current SP levels. Secondly, I thought we were playing a sandbox game where I can play as I choose. If I'm not dedicating my time to learn more efficient ways to grind for ISK and want to keep advancing a single character, am I playing the game wrong? Why can't I choose to fly cheap and have the ability to largely ignore the chore of grinding ISK to keep playing?
You can also look at it in a different way by asking another question. What good does the current implementation of the mechanic bring to the game? A minor ISK sink, that is easily replaceable and tranferrable to a place were it's PvP neutral? To me that isn't a good enough reason to justify any of the negatives, so I think the system needs to be revamped to address the issues. |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
254
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nope. Once you get to the point of meaningful clone costs, you'll be making far more isk.
Clones and implants don't "inhibit PvP", they add a baseline of risk to the equation, which is a core tenant of what Eve is about.
edit: You made a well constructed post above me that definitely lays out your ideals well. Still, I find it hard to support taking more risk out of PvP when isk is so easy to get in today's eve. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
263
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
I've said it before and I will say it again. Let Sov players have the clone cost upgrade like FW! We're the ones who are paying for new clones the most any way (you know, that whole bubble's are only nullsec?)
Let HighSec stay as it is, if you want to play in safer space you pay more for clones (which you shouldn't be losing outside of smartbombs and lag) LowSec have their discounts and are close for HighSec users NullSec get the same as LowSec if the system/outpost is upgraded. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think if you want to encourage pvp then lowering the costs of ships would be a good place to start! How about everyone move to Sisi?
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Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
I'd PVP a LOT more. I love frigates, and most of my 65mil ISK clone is wasted when I'm in a frigate, and the cost is unjustifiable.
I'd probably be just as effective at flying it in my 15mil alt clone, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE MY ALT. I want all my PVP to show up under my main character.
I should not be punished for wanting this. It makes no sense at all. Give people the choice, get more fights!
Think of it this way, in another ten years of eve NONE of you will be pvping. Unless you fancy 500mil-1bil a clone just for losing a T1 frig in null to a dictor bubble which will happen on a DAILY basis if you are active.
Is that where you want eve to be? |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3107
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
mechtech wrote:Nope. Once you get to the point of meaningful clone costs, you'll be making far more isk.
Clones and implants don't "inhibit PvP", they add a baseline of risk to the equation, which is a core tenant of what Eve is about.
edit: You made a well constructed post above me that definitely lays out your ideals well. Still, I find it hard to support taking more risk out of PvP when isk is so easy to get in today's eve. You could not possibly be more wrong.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
ORLICZ
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
no. !!!!
why we killing stuff? cos its cost isk ? why should bother killing free stuff ?
clones should cost more for +100mil sp chars ( if u lower cost of pods, we just start using them to move yourself trough expresspod) |
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