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Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 09:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey there
since it is not really feasible for a small corp to try and just "take" sov, i-¦ve been looking into this renting-thing.
please spare me with the "becoming a pet " or stuff like that.
I am more looking at it as a business opportunity.
If the benefits (from a mere financial standpoint) outweigh the costs, then it might be something worth to look into.
So how does it work actually ?
The corp pays x ISK / week (or month) and in return
-the corp is set to blue to the sov holders? -gains access to belts / anoms / whatnot ? -access to plantes / PI ?
can the renting corp set up towers too ? (of course not the best moons but maybe moons that do make a profit ?) could the renting corp potentially gain sov other that rented system ?? so what are the to be expected costs ?
does the renting corp have to worry about fleets, cta-¦s , securing the system ? or do the landlords do that thing ?
thx for clearing this up for me
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Nav illus
Pallas Krypteia
9
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
You should be asking these questions to potential landlords. They're all different. Most are terrible.
Good luck. |
Kaylyis
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
80
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Renting turns a game into a job.
You're better off gearing for war and joining a sov holding alliance as a contributor rather than as money-crapping space-clutter. |
Skorpynekomimi
455
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
From what I understand, you pay through the nose, have HEAVY restrictions on what you can do and what you can anchor in said space, and are basically the landlord's ***** when it comes to following CTAs and gate camping. If you don't stick to their rules, they pull a CTA on YOU, and wreck your ****. You may not even be blue to them, and thus prone to being blown up by passing fleets. |
Bob Nesta Marley
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ey boy some bruddas be ok wit da man be all gimme de swag brudda, but ya know boy, man be man, I and I be all for I and I, seen?
Respect |
Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
ouch...
that bad hm ??
aren-¦t there no positives about it at all ?
I wonder why still corps do it then...... |
Kaylyis
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
80
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
They want the benefits of living in null without the hassle of defending their space. Its an attitude that tends to lend itself well to alliances squeezing them for all they are worth, then smashing them.
Space clutter gnawing on your resources your own corp could be exploiting, and paying their lunch money to do it.
If you want in on the bennies of SOV, then establish yourselves as a corp, go learn fleet combat, and join an alliance. Then have fun attacking the neighbors in between frantic isk grinding at the forsaken hubs.
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TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
435
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Small people can't take sov? egh....
Anyway, It totally depends who you're renting off.
People I've known in the past have had deals that say things like
"you can rat, do anoms, mine in this 1 system. You can drop pos's but if the landlord wants them later they're coming down. No re-processors on pos's as this is to be done in a station. It's x a month, if you don't pay you will be removed"
Others have just said "it's x a month, rat where you like, no pos's"
As for defense, some landlords will just take your money and get on with their own thing, others will roam about the space and make sure to keep it defended.
There's little to stop the renters banding together in an effort to secure the space for them selves though, bar them being renters and usually just hiding when reds\neuts turn up.
A better option though would be to make some friends and then take a system of little importance to anyone. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
554
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kaylyis wrote:Renting turns a game into a job.
You're better off gearing for war and joining a sov holding alliance as a contributor rather than as money-crapping space-clutter. i can't be sure but...
It looks like paying some ISK to landlord looks less than a job. However "contributing" looks like real job most of a time. I recall requirements "50 kills a month or death" and it doesn't look like party unless you enjoy gatecamping. |
terzho
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
156
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Posted - 2013.02.21 10:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
I hear drone regions is nice this time of year......you should totally rent there ^_^ |
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TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
435
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Kaylyis wrote:Renting turns a game into a job.
You're better off gearing for war and joining a sov holding alliance as a contributor rather than as money-crapping space-clutter. i can't be sure but... It looks like paying some ISK to landlord looks less than a job. However "contributing" looks like real job most of a time. I recall requirements "50 kills a month or death" and it doesn't look like party unless you enjoy gatecamping.
50 kills a month really isn't anything, that's like 1 roam a week |
Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
7
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
GD probably isnt really the place for these questions as any self respecting alliance that provides rental space will not let be spamming their T's & C's here.
Any other opinions you get are going to be those who have been burned (probably due to their own stupidity) or by those who actually have no clue and are purely speculating.
Adding to that speculation, some of the more solid things i've heard about renter alliances are as follows:
Monthly rentals can be substantial (into the billions of isk) You are not required in any combat fleets (as your probably a liability) You may be allowed towers You put up your own POCO's Forget about the moons You're corp will more than likely be absorbed into their "citizens" alliance.
Speak to the diplos of the renter alliances. Dont listen to the bitter vets in GD. Play in whatever style pleases you and your corpies. |
Col Arran
Generic Incursion Tax Evasion Spaceship Samurai
82
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
When you rent you typically get given a system and depending on much much of an ass your landlord is you can either have full access to the system or just ratting and mining.
The lower the sec of the system the more you pay a bil a month at least and thats for a ****** -0.1 gateway from high sec system you'll get visitors in all the time. Up to 10bil a month for a -0.8 or lower system.
The coalition I'm a part of (nulli secunda) is very good about renting space so I'd have a talk with them if you're interested. |
Andres Talas
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
77
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Col Arran wrote:When you rent you typically get given a system and depending on much much of an ass your landlord is you can either have full access to the system or just ratting and mining.
The lower the sec of the system the more you pay a bil a month at least and thats for a ****** -0.1 gateway from high sec system you'll get visitors in all the time. Up to 10bil a month for a -0.8 or lower system.
The coalition I'm a part of (nulli secunda) is very good about renting space so I'd have a talk with them if you're interested.
Just on that, remember that 5b a month would pay for
One carrier,
the fittings on 100 drakes or hurricanes, and
10 stabber fleet issues.
You can see just how much stress that puts on the finances of a corp that is both trying to pay rent, and to keep it's PvPers fighting, and to prepare for being able to contribute to sov warfare. |
Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
ok that was good input and it seems to me that renting is a double edged sword-
as it comes to "small corps " alliances cant take sov"
of course they can "take" but taking and holding aint the same...
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March rabbit
player corp n1
554
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:March rabbit wrote:Kaylyis wrote:Renting turns a game into a job.
You're better off gearing for war and joining a sov holding alliance as a contributor rather than as money-crapping space-clutter. i can't be sure but... It looks like paying some ISK to landlord looks less than a job. However "contributing" looks like real job most of a time. I recall requirements "50 kills a month or death" and it doesn't look like party unless you enjoy gatecamping. 50 kills a month really isn't anything, that's like 1 roam a week it depends of something like your living place (how long from nearest non-blue space), from FCs.... |
Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andres Talas wrote:Col Arran wrote:When you rent you typically get given a system and depending on much much of an ass your landlord is you can either have full access to the system or just ratting and mining.
The lower the sec of the system the more you pay a bil a month at least and thats for a ****** -0.1 gateway from high sec system you'll get visitors in all the time. Up to 10bil a month for a -0.8 or lower system.
The coalition I'm a part of (nulli secunda) is very good about renting space so I'd have a talk with them if you're interested. Just on that, remember that 5b a month would pay for One carrier, the fittings on 100 drakes or hurricanes, and 10 stabber fleet issues. You can see just how much stress that puts on the finances of a corp that is both trying to pay rent, and to keep it's PvPers fighting, and to prepare for being able to contribute to sov warfare.
thx for doing the math for me. i totally forgot how to use the market and spreadsheets and a calculator. nothing personal man, just kidding. no offense.
but of course you are right. a lot of corps have problems paying warfare as it is even without having to pay billions per month for it seems nothing but the permission to dock up, mine , do PI and rat...
although...according to some forum heros a few billions aint that much if you have full access to anoms and rats and time on your hands. :-)
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Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:March rabbit wrote:Kaylyis wrote:Renting turns a game into a job.
You're better off gearing for war and joining a sov holding alliance as a contributor rather than as money-crapping space-clutter. i can't be sure but... It looks like paying some ISK to landlord looks less than a job. However "contributing" looks like real job most of a time. I recall requirements "50 kills a month or death" and it doesn't look like party unless you enjoy gatecamping. 50 kills a month really isn't anything, that's like 1 roam a week it depends of something like your living place (how long from nearest non-blue space), from FCs....
and the kind of engagements you are in. in fleet battles of 500 vs. 500 then yeah, 50 is a days work.
but when you do 20man roams 50 could be a bit more of a challenge. unless your own losses count into the target numbers :-)
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Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
125
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zap Zarrap wrote:I am more looking at it as a business opportunity.
I think this is the single worse reason to leave hi-sec, and even more so if you are a small corp trying to make it on your own. You need to pay the rent, you are probably going to lose ships, you need move stuff between hi-sec and low-sec, all of which are going to eat away at your profits. At the end of the day you can easily end up making the same or even less isk them you would in hi-sec.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying don't go. It's probably going to be fun and challenging adventure, just don't expect to end up filthy rich. |
Andres Talas
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
77
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Posted - 2013.02.21 12:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zap Zarrap wrote:ok that was good input and it seems to me that renting is a double edged sword-
as it comes to "small corps " alliances cant take sov"
of course they can "take" but taking and holding aint the same...
Which is why small corps and alliances need to play the metagame and sign up with some entity thats either there or close to the way there.
Now, proving yourself first by moving into faction warfare or NPC Null first and getting on some killboards is a good move, and once you're there, make sure that everyone tries hard to get in all the PvP fleets you can (note theres often to usually cheap-and-useful ships ... if they run AHACs, for example, you might find that Stabber Fleet Issues at ~70m per are acceptable as fleet ships. But if you want to stay in null, put the isk on the line first. If they take Blackbirds and Celestises, or Scythes or Exequors, there is no excuse for not being in fleet).
But yeah, looking at it as a business proposition, you're probably better off finding a nice wormhole, or just blitzing incursions or level 4s in empire. The money in null is good, but its not that much better. |
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Zap Zarrap
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 12:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Andres Talas wrote:Zap Zarrap wrote:ok that was good input and it seems to me that renting is a double edged sword-
as it comes to "small corps " alliances cant take sov"
of course they can "take" but taking and holding aint the same...
Which is why small corps and alliances need to play the metagame and sign up with some entity thats either there or close to the way there. Now, proving yourself first by moving into faction warfare or NPC Null first and getting on some killboards is a good move, and once you're there, make sure that everyone tries hard to get in all the PvP fleets you can (note theres often to usually cheap-and-useful ships ... if they run AHACs, for example, you might find that Stabber Fleet Issues at ~70m per are acceptable as fleet ships. But if you want to stay in null, put the isk on the line first. If they take Blackbirds and Celestises, or Scythes or Exequors, there is no excuse for not being in fleet). But yeah, looking at it as a business proposition, you're probably better off finding a nice wormhole, or just blitzing incursions or level 4s in empire. The money in null is good, but its not that much better.
thx for a great response. yeah might be that the cost do not outweigh the benefits. BUT it offers more flexibility when it comes to isk earning. PI, rats, anoms. mining (YUCK)...and if those pesky landlords would allow it.. even moons.
but for that i understand one needs to prove himself to be worthy. althouh i sometimes wonder how many moons for example TEST or the GOONS hold and maintain... this got to bo soo much hassle...
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Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
268
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Posted - 2013.02.21 12:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
pros and cons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8 |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
63
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Posted - 2013.02.21 15:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'm not sure what your business goals are, but you should look into a NRDS space such as Providence and see if it has what you are looking for. Just a suggestion, not for everyone.
I moved into Providence several months ago and I must say it has a lot to offer small Industrial corps. |
RAP ACTION HERO
160
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Posted - 2013.02.21 15:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Deklein/RFY-QB 2 bil a month with 10 bil deposit, you may mail me. vitoc erryday |
Arduemont
Tempest Legion Corcoran State
1243
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Renting is never good. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1419
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
To me, the answer to the question of renting is "maybe, but probably not a great idea personally".
Renting is good for the game. it gets people into null sec who would not otherwise be there. They provide targets for pvp (and the consumption of ships/modules form pvp and somewhat from pve loses drives the economy), minerals and ships and other things for industry etc etc. They can and sometimes do provide a place for a player to "get his feet wet" in real null sec as opposed to npc null. in rare cases renting corps go on to be full members of real alliances..
I've been in several renter alliances. I most cases it was a place to park my pve money making toons while my pvp character is in the "main" alliance (ie, when I was in Raiden, my alts were in Rolling Thunder, when I was in -A- my alts were in AAA Citizens etc). Once, I was totally and wholly in a corp that was in a "second line" (not really "renter") alliance and it was fine, the freedom to fight or not as i chose was VERY cool.
But being a renter can suck magical donkey balls too. So many restrictions (I once got in trouble for ratting in an UNCLAIMED system, I was ticked at that lol). Sometimes renters become nothing but prey for the landlord's allies (who you are NOT blue to) and sometimes the isk landlords want is so stupidly high it actually stunts a corps ability to grow.
All in all I'd say if you're one of those player who don't like "CTAs" and being bossed around, a renter situation where you have some freedom can be a mostly positive experience. It has been for me. |
Xessej
Darqsyde Exploration Limited Mass - Effect
7
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Was in an alliance that rented for a while.
We were allowed to drop towers and hold sov in the system but we had issues with diplo. We kept finding ourselves not blue to our landlords and we were never given access to their stations, which was part of the deal. And we were subject to the landlords CTA's, despite that not being part of the deal.
The cost? a carrier a week IIRC.
After getting standings reset and then being attacked by the landlords roams one time too many we packed up and left. |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
109
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Pro: You get space in 0.0 for as long as you are useful to your landlords.
Con: You will have nobodies respect, not even from your landlords. |
Akira Menoko
Cestus Wraith
1
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Posted - 2013.02.21 18:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
About 1.5 - 2 years ago I was part of a corp that rented space from Solar Fleet in Cobalt Edge of the Drone Regions. So my experiences might help you.
Generally speaking, what happens when you rent space is your corp get placed in a renter's alliance. This is done to simply standings, so that every time someone rents space the holder and their allies don't have to add or remove standings. It prevents foul ups with allies not being set blue, but it means only corps can rent space and not an alliance.
What you get, what you pay, and what restrictions and requirements you are subject to depend on who's renting you space. Our rental agreement at the time with Solar Fleet was, in my opinion, one of the best out there. The fee was paid monthly, and the amount was dependent on the security status of the system (lower meant more expensive). The system was a -0.2 system with a fair amount of belts, so I think the rent was between 750 million and 1 billion isk per month with better systems costing 2-4 billion per month I think. We could do whatever we liked in our system (mine, rat, PI, moon mine, install system upgrades) so long as we did not anchor any super capital construction facilities. There were no requirements to to do CTAs or anything beyond pay rent and don't build super capitals. For their part they and their allies had a good bridge network and were consistent with chasing red fleets around and the area was pretty safe, but I doubt they'd really do much to help if a POS got attacked and reinforced.
Zap Zarrap wrote: I am more looking at it as a business opportunity.
This is a good approach to take so long as you actually do treat it as one. Rent in this case becomes part of your fixed overhead costs and you need a plan to produce enough isk to cover your costs as well as provide a satisfactory profit. When I was in rented space our rented system had an ice belt, which was a good money maker. It easily covered the costs and provided a healthy profit to make staying there worth while.
Other things to consider is stations and logistics. Odds are there won't be a station in your system to dock at and the nearest one may be a few jumps away. So be prepared to live in a POS. Also be prepared to transport your stuff in on your own. The holders leasing the space may provide you with a cyno/bridge network for you to use, but I wouldn't count on it.
Lastly, make sure you have an exit plan. Space gets conquered or you may find your land lords are not quite like you thought. Whatever the reason you will at some point probably have to leave in a hurry. Best be prepared for that too.
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Akira Menoko
Cestus Wraith
1
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Posted - 2013.02.21 18:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jason Xado wrote:I'm not sure what your business goals are, but you should look into a NRDS (Not Red Don't Shoot) space such as Providence and see if it has what you are looking for. Just a suggestion, not for everyone.
I moved into Providence several months ago and I must say it has a lot to offer small Industrial corps.
Depending on your goals this is a good option. If nothing else it can let you get a feel for nullsec in a rent free environment. Providence has some rules though, so make sure you read up on those before moving over. |
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