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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
313
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Posted - 2013.02.22 07:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
What might one consider a good "benchmark" DPS output, for a missile ship intended for level 4 missions. Say Raven, Navy Raven, Navy Scorpion, Cerberus, Nighthawk or Tengu? And veteran player who trained everything to 5 a year or two ago?
500? 600? 700?
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
658
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Posted - 2013.02.22 08:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
With my skills I get 700 DPS with a CNR. It chews through level 4s quite nicely, or at least it did before I realised that guns are much better than missiles. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
35
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Posted - 2013.02.22 08:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Approx 700 dps is considered pretty good "gank" setup for cruise raven. Especially if you have managed to put a painter or two on it.
But TBH, I would use just Tengu instead atm. At least for Serpentis / Angels / Gurista and perhaps even Drones. Sansha/Blood have a bit too high kin resist to make it comfortable but if you dont get em on regular basis Tengu is pretty ok still.
Note that Tengu is lined up for the nerf sometime in the future but who knows when that happens. When it happens the CCP propably overdoes it tho and you have pleasure of owing a T3 paperweight for good number of years till it gets revisited. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
313
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Posted - 2013.02.22 10:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm doing 720 DPS, using CN missiles, CN launchers, 4xCN BCS. And all applicable skillz trained to 5. And with a few 3% implants.
How do other RNI pilots get 700 DPS? T2 launchers and T2 furries?
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Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
562
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Posted - 2013.02.22 10:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
CNR, T2 Fury cruises, 4x CN BCUs, T2 Hammers, all support skills to V - 954 DPS |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam A Point In Space
582
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Posted - 2013.02.22 11:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
I get about 590dps from a Tengu, if my skills were a little higher it would be around 640.
Tengu isn't the 'best' platform for L4's, but it can do them quite easily. if your looking to min/max go with some kind of battleship/marauder for more optimum results. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
843
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Posted - 2013.02.22 12:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
the missile ship numbers are largely accurate. also notice that a slightly pimped macharial can go up to 1100 without heat.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
43
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
With my skills a basic Raven, with Arbalest launchers, 4BCUIIs, T1 ammo (no drones) puts out only 457dps. I would hate to go back and do missions with that.
Basic CNR with above fitting, puts out 533dps. (Life starts to get a little easier.)
My present CNR, with T2 launchers, 4CNBCUs, CN missiles (and my implants) puts out 710dps. (LIfe is very good.)
With Furies, she puts out 864dps. (with drones, over 1000)
Tengu with CN Mjolnirs puts out only 467dps, 584 with CN Scourge, and 685 with Fury Scourge.
So there's your range. On the low side, L4s could be a struggle. As you get to 700, L4s, obviously get easier.
I used a Tengu for a long time, but went back to the CNR about a year ago. And now since the heavy missile nerf, I don't even undock the Tengu anymore.
In the CNR, I may carry some Fury with me, but usually I just stick with the CN missiles.
-Kirst
(of course, there are many other ship alternatives, these are just two examples) |
Carniflex
StarHunt
35
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well - I would not count drone DPS when the question is about good gank missile ship. With drones Rattlesnake gets pretty interesting as sentries can be pretty good dps, however, regardless of it having missile slots I would not consider it exactly a missile ship as thats not where majority of its damage comes from.
Also note that a gank missile boat is usually filled with a carebearing clone which can have few bil in hardwires n stuff in it or at very least should contain 5% RoF and damage hardwires. Often also missile speed / precision, etc ones depending on the particular ship.
Reason why I suggested Tengu is that it can get quite impressive dps in a form that is the most "universal" in the sense that you lose smallest portion of it against frigs / cruisers / BC's while when going for cruise missiles even with 3x rigors and guided missile precision hardwire the sig of these remains a little bit too big for comfortable use on cruisers and below without at least one painter.
I'm myself using mostly Tengus atm with mix of Hydraulic Bay Thrusters and Rigors (have more than one account). I have also Golems, CNR's, almost all the guys are capable of Nighthawks - to name the main missile platforms used in missionrunning.
Nightahwks are btw also pretty good if you for some reason dont want to use Tengu. A bit less agile, a bit shorter range, a bit more skill intensive to get into one, but the dps gets close to Tengu if you count drones also (but with the new drone AI using light drones takes some micromanagement). Speaking of drones - in my nighthawks I carry a flight of throwaway T1 lights, when I bite more than I can comfortably chew these can be used like lizards tail, kick em out to distract the scramblers and bail while scramblers are busy munching on your drones. Altho ofc Nighthawks is pretty good at getting scramblers off its tail also with missiles and has usually a bit larger buffer than Tengu. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
43
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Carniflex, I agree with just about everything you've said.
However, my Tengu with just 2 rigors has an exp rad of 73, Dressys and Cruisers take full damage. The Tengu can still handle L4s, but it's just my preference to go back and use a CNR.
I think you prefer the Tengu, and that's cool, nothing wrong with that.
-Kirst |
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Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
134
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Posted - 2013.02.22 15:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Depends on what you're doing.
Blitz take a Tengu
Kill everything CNR or SNI They're not as far appart as some and or EFT wants to let you believe.
In my SNI I take out quite some frigates in one volley, (Precision ammo and TP's) and with Rage I get 685 DPS.
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Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
230
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Drone dps is not included!
CNR: t2 cruise launchers, 4 t2 bcs, t1 cruise missiles, I was getting 560 or 566 dps. Upgraded bcs to CN bcs, with 4 CN bcs I am getting 604 dps.
If you get ~500 dps without drones, you are in good position to do L4. At this point you can either upgrade for more dps (like I did) or start saving for something else. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
478
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Posted - 2013.02.22 19:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
You want to do at least 500 DPS to be able to run lvl 4 missions effectively. Most common mission fits for lvl 4 are around 700 DPS.
But yo need to consider more than just DPS. Range and damage application are equally important. For example I run my raven with 2 x rigor rigs and 1 x flare rig. It makes no difference to the rated DPS, but a huge difference in damage application. With those rigs and precision cruise missiles I can one volley most frigates, all destroyers, and many cruisers. Many of which I barely scratch without the rigs.
Also consider the difference between a cruise missile fit and a torp fit. the torp fit has way more paper DPS, but can't hit well on anything smaller than a battleship, so you are only applying half of that DPS. But if the mission has 10 or more BS's a torp fit can work very well. but for most missions it will take longer to complete using a torp fit than a cruise missile fit.
For example I had a shield Fit for my typhoon that was 1400 DPS. but I could not handle the frigates, or most of the cruisers. torps, 800mm AC's, and heavy drones, with the lows full of damage mods. looked great on paper, certainly good DPS, but when actually running missions I was better off with cruise missile/ sentry fit. I do really like flying a shield typhoon though. Hope they do not wreck the ship when they teiricide it. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
313
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Posted - 2013.02.23 06:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:But yo need to consider more than just DPS. Range and damage application are equally important. For example I run my raven with 2 x rigor rigs and 1 x flare rig. It makes no difference to the rated DPS, but a huge difference in damage application. With those rigs and precision cruise missiles I can one volley most frigates, all destroyers, and many cruisers. Many of which I barely scratch without the rigs.
Yup, that's why I'm thinking about switching to Nighthawk or Tengu instead of Navy Raven. Being better able to apply my DPS on smaller rats.
The problem is, I did fly a Nighthawk back in 2011, but I didn't like it much, because its DPS was quite low. So I'd kinda like to hear people's suggestions for what a "reasonable" DPS value might be.
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Shaotuk
Sin City Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2013.02.23 14:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
I fly a HAM Tengu.
Vs kinetic, It gets ~1k dps, out to 42km; ~650'ish dps, using Javelins, out to 75 ro so km
Vs everything else, lower dps.
Eats ammo like a pig though... |
Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
573
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Posted - 2013.02.23 15:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:But yo need to consider more than just DPS. Range and damage application are equally important. For example I run my raven with 2 x rigor rigs and 1 x flare rig. It makes no difference to the rated DPS, but a huge difference in damage application. With those rigs and precision cruise missiles I can one volley most frigates, all destroyers, and many cruisers. Many of which I barely scratch without the rigs. Yup, that's why I'm thinking about switching to Nighthawk or Tengu instead of Navy Raven. Being better able to apply my DPS on smaller rats. I alpha most BCs and many cruisers, so damage projection is not an issue. I never bother with Precision. I will sometimes switch to standard if I decide to help out my Hobbies. With that said:
Salpad wrote:The problem is, I did fly a Nighthawk back in 2011, but I didn't like it much, because its DPS was quite low. So I'd kinda like to hear people's suggestions for what a "reasonable" DPS value might be. ^^ emphasis mine. The most important thing is to fly something you enjoy flying, regardless of exactly how much DPS it can put out and how well that is projected. Me, I like my CNR. I could fly a Mare or Mach, but I'm comfortable with my CNR, I'm experienced with it, I like it so I stick to it. I've tried a Tengu and while that was a good missioning ship I didn't like it as much as I do my CNR. Now I have a 1bill+ Tengu gathering dust in my hangar.
With that in mind, if you're on the fence between an NH and a Tengu, definitely go Tengu. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
313
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Posted - 2013.02.23 16:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:[quote=Salpad]^^ emphasis mine. The most important thing is to fly something you enjoy flying, regardless of exactly how much DPS it can put out and how well that is projected. Me, I like my CNR. I could fly a Mare or Mach, but I'm comfortable with my CNR, I'm experienced with it, I like it so I stick to it. I've tried a Tengu and while that was a good missioning ship I didn't like it as much as I do my CNR. Now I have a 1bill+ Tengu gathering dust in my hangar.
With that in mind, if you're on the fence between an NH and a Tengu, definitely go Tengu.
What I like is to fly a ship that has a reasonable combination of DPS, survivability, and ability to quickly dispatch scary rats such as warp scrambling frigates.
As for NH vs Tengu, the main problem is that I've got uber NH skillz, and I know how to fit one (for active tank), while I haven't perfected the Tengu skillz yet, and have never flown one.
Also, in the long run, the NH is likely to get a small boost, while the Tengu is likely to get a small nerf. But probably not until next winter.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
35
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Posted - 2013.02.23 20:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well, if you did not like Nighthawk before the heavy missile nerf its unlikely you would love it now. Especially the lack of range is noticeable without some hydraulic bay thrusters.
With bay thrusters it scrapes togehter approx 85 .. 90 km range which is reasonably decent for missionrunning.
As far as Tengu goes the skills go pretty fast, hull skill you can leave at lev 1, most skills at 4 and the one affecting missile damage to 5. So It's approx a week of training to get decent once you have Caldary Cruiser lev 5. Ofc longer term its nice to have all the subs at 5.
Granted, Heavy missile nerf hit Tengu as well, but not as hard as nighthawk. Also, with Tengu HAM are actually a viable option as it gets the range bonus. On Nighthawk the range falls a bit on the short side in my opinion for HAM to be viable for missionrunning. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Arec Bardwin
912
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Posted - 2013.02.23 20:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
900 missile dps with fury cruise, target painter and 3x rigor rigs. Swap to precision when you need to eliminate elite frigs. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
233
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Posted - 2013.02.23 23:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Ifly Uwalk wrote:[quote=Salpad]^^ emphasis mine. The most important thing is to fly something you enjoy flying, regardless of exactly how much DPS it can put out and how well that is projected. Me, I like my CNR. I could fly a Mare or Mach, but I'm comfortable with my CNR, I'm experienced with it, I like it so I stick to it. I've tried a Tengu and while that was a good missioning ship I didn't like it as much as I do my CNR. Now I have a 1bill+ Tengu gathering dust in my hangar.
With that in mind, if you're on the fence between an NH and a Tengu, definitely go Tengu. What I like is to fly a ship that has a reasonable combination of DPS, survivability, and ability to quickly dispatch scary rats such as warp scrambling frigates. As for NH vs Tengu, the main problem is that I've got uber NH skillz, and I know how to fit one (for active tank), while I haven't perfected the Tengu skillz yet, and have never flown one. Also, in the long run, the NH is likely to get a small boost, while the Tengu is likely to get a small nerf. But probably not until next winter. Scram frigs are not scary anymore. With Large Micro Jump Drive on my CNR I only have x-large shield booster and two shield boost amplifiers, that is my whole tank. LMJD can not be stopped by rat scrams. Jump 100km every 3 minutes as needed. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
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Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
185
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Posted - 2013.02.23 23:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff. thhief ghabmoef |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
233
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Posted - 2013.02.23 23:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff. How many volleys to kill regular rat frig? Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
313
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Posted - 2013.02.24 03:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff.
What's the exact nature of their buff?
My only torp experience was back in 2010 or 2011, on a Golem. I got warp scrambled and lost the ship and fittings. I've always had a liking for the idea of the kinds of missiles that have long range, and my Golem experience only reinforced that principle.
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Sturmwolke
371
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Posted - 2013.02.24 07:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff. How many volleys to kill regular rat frig? I've been meaning to take a re-look at the torp CNR variant after those changes, after a bit of EFT work, it ain't half bad.
[Raven Navy Issue, Torp Version] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive EM Ward Field II EM Ward Field II Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Small Tractor Beam II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
- Standard T1 torp -> 216 exp rad/106.5 exp vel. This looks like it'll 1-2 volley std cruisers and BCs. Per volley is a massive 5992 raw dmg @ 5.5 sec reload(!!)
- As for frigates, assuming 40m sig with 500m/s orbit, the amount of effective dps that is applied amounts to around 360dps ish (roughly 33% of your max dps). A full flight of T2 Hobgoblins does around 100 dps, so the torp does like 3x more dps compared to the drones. Useful as backup when/if the drones fail. (God, I do this often on my Golem vs elite frigates ... and the torps killed them faster than the drones would)
Only issue is the Javelin range which would probably reach around 40km in practice, so you need to be mission selective and swap prop mods when necessary. |
Arthiuz
Tax Evasion Haven
0
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Posted - 2013.02.24 14:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff. How many volleys to kill regular rat frig?
Irrelevant. You shouldn't be killing frigates with battleship weapons, that's what your drones are for. Anyway with skills+target painters I can't imagine it's too bad now. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
235
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Posted - 2013.02.24 14:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Arthiuz wrote:Caleidascope wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:You guys might want to have a look at torps, on a raven hull. They're quite nice since the buff. How many volleys to kill regular rat frig? Irrelevant. You shouldn't be killing frigates with battleship weapons, that's what your drones should be doing. Anyway with skills+target painters I can't imagine it's too bad now. lol I guess you missed the whole npc AI change. Good luck to your and your drones. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
Arec Bardwin
912
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Posted - 2013.02.24 15:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Personally I don't think the extra dps you get from using (javelin) torpedoes over (fury) cruise is worth it. The range of torpedoes is just too low imho, maybe I'm just being too lazy to move into range. Plus, precision cruse is really effective vs elite frig npcs. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
207
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Posted - 2013.02.24 20:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:lol I guess you missed the whole npc AI change. Good luck to your and your drones.
haven't had an issue so far. oh noes I have to pay a teeny bit of attention to my drones hp, call the whambulance! Okay so apparently one epic arc mission will kill your drones before you can react, but that is isolated enough it shouldn't matter for general mission discussion.
with t2 cruise, fury, 4 faction bcus, and 5% implants eft says 917 dps. add in 3 wardens and a drone damage amp and it goes up to 1083. I probably wouldn't use gardes often (too short range) but that will get up to 1138. Plus the DDA will help your hobs kill orbiting frigs faster, plus the faster you kill frigs the less time they have to switch to your drones. On my rattlesnake with 3 dda hobs catch up to a frig and one shot them.
nighthawk I probably wouldn't use right now, the HML nerf kicked it when it was already down. tengu has more range, dps, and is way faster. |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
907
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Posted - 2013.02.25 16:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Don;t touch the Nighthawk with a bargepole at the moment, It was crap before compared to others and after the heavy missle nerf...cough sorry "balance" tm CCP have royally bent it over and kicked it in the knackers.
Shame really such a pretty ship. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Id hitthat
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.02.26 07:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
500 lol. a raven navy issue with implants does 1876 |
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